Lanbril and Eurmal

[John Biles]

Two myths to contrast them:

 

Eurmal and Issaries Find the Hidden Ways:

    While Issaries had been busy feeding everyone through trade, someone had lost the secret ways.  That someone was Eurmal, who hid them so Chaos couldn’t use them, then the next morning, his runes changed and he couldn’t remember where he put them.

    But Issaries needed to visit the hot lands of the South, so he went to Eurmal and asked for the secret.  Eurmal didn’t want to admit he had forgotten, but Issaries was offering him a bottle of wine and a night with a beautiful woman, so Eurmal couldn’t say no.

    So he led Issaries to the mountains and they wandered around until a troll came after them; Eurmal turned into a female troll and ordered it to show them the secret way.  It was a secret way… to the land of the dragon-people.  Issaries had to give them the secret of writing to get them to let the two go.

    So Eurmal led them to *the other mountains*, where they encountered an Elf, who threatened to make them into fertilizer for trespassing, but Eurmal turned into Flamal long enough to order him to show them the secret way.  But it was a tunnel the Elves used to raid libraries in the West and liberate the books!  Eurmal turned invisible and pretended to be their god long enough for him and Issaries to escape.

    They almost went to the forest, but then Issaries reminded Eurmal there were *more Elves* in the forest.

    Finally, Eurmal pointed out a fish; Issaries caught it, then they ate it, turned into fish, and swam down to the bottom of a lake, where there was a plug; they pulled the plug and all the water swirled out and now steps were revealed which led to Pamaltela.  But the fish showed up in a giant ball of water that rolled up the Creek-Stream river and demanded a new home, so Issaries used Eurmal as a shovel and dug them a new lake.

Then he gave Eurmal the prettiest female fish and a bottle of wine and fled before he could find out the consequences.

Notes by High Priest Hendonil:  Some scholars believe this is the origin of mer-folk but most people know better.  Shut up, Yora.  This quest is performed before the one where Issaries, Storm Bull, and Lhankor Mhy all go to Pamaltela.  Done correctly, it opens a temporary hidden ways to any location in the myth, or if done strongly enough, creates a sacred site which facilitates opening the ways in the future.  Good luck getting Eurmal to stick to the plot, though.  

 

Lanbril Steals Orlanth's Trousers:

Orlanth was, as usual, drunk and bragging about how his magical pockets could hold anything.  He even put Humakt in his pocket, then whipped him out.  He would regret that latter, but that is another story for another time.

Lanbril lurked in the shadows, disguised as a Thunder Brother; it had been easy to get the man drunk and roll him when he'd wandered off looking for a woman.  In fact, he feigned being drunk and passed out.

Once things wound down, Orlanth went off with Ernalda for mountain-shaking, while the rest of the household either fell asleep or went to find a lesser mountain to shake.  Once all was quiet, Lanbril rose and crept towards Orlanth's chambers.

Things quieted down and Lanbril slipped in only to find Yinkin all curled up by the fire.  Orlanth's pants were tossed over the end of the bed.  But Lanbril had planned for this.  

He threw some catnip to Yinkin, then stepped back and waited for the sounds of Yinkin waking, then going crazy on it.

He then opened the door, grabbed the pants, and threw himself into the fire, jumping to another fireplace back home.  A trick he'd stolen from one of the Solar Gods long ago.

Orlanth blamed Yinkin for throwing his pants in the fire while out of his mind on catnip and Lanbril got the magical trousers he still has today.

Notes by High Priest Hendonil:  This heroquest of the Lanbril cult has all the markings of urban people - Orlanth has his own chambers, sleeps in a bed with just him and Ernalda, and Yinkin is more like a pet cat than an Alynx.  It is used by the cult to both enchant pants to have magic pockets but also to steal worship from Orlanth for the cult's own use.  It is rather dangerous, as you have to infiltrate an Orlanth cult in order to pull it off.  But also lucrative.  No, Yora, I don't need you and Harrid to re-enact it for me!  

 

 

 

 

 

[Lordabdul]

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

I think that the Lanbril cult is really a collective of hero and/or spirit cults under a loose common roof. Lanbril thieves are organized, which makes them different from Eurmal.

Maybe I should post this in the Dumbest Theory thread, but if I take your statement and push it a bit more, I could come up with a theory that Lanbril is really just a crime organization that has been brewing for too long... as in: crime "families" formed as a necessity in the first cities big enough for thieves to find a benefit in getting together (better scores, escaping law enforcement, etc). As this organized crime came and went over many generations, they came up with techniques that were mixed up with traditions and rituals, because that's the only concept people have for maintaining knowledge and group cohesion. And so after a hundred generations they inadvertently created this "Lanbril" persona more or less out of whole cloth -- like stumbling upon God Learnerism without realizing it. That's why it feels contrived and weirdly limited, because it really came from a small group of people in a few cities who didn't quite yet know how to make a guild -- because maybe there was no such thing as a guild back then. So they made a cult instead.

Edited December 21, 2020 by lordabdul

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

Lanbril is theft.  All thief gods are Lanbril under other names.  Other gods may steal things, but they are not thief gods. 

[scott-martin]

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Lanbril is really just a crime organization that has been brewing for too long

Not Dumb Enough! I am not convinced there was ever a "historical Donandar" who originally crossed the world teaching performance and deep in my heart I suspect there was never a "historical Issaries" either. I go back and forth on a "historical Chalana Arroy." These are composite figures cobbled together from diverse parts and cultural matrices now mostly lost. They belong to the world now.

The Lanbril network at least seems to have fixed geographical scope and boundaries so we can seek the origins more easily. Maybe there was no founder as you say. Just isolated crimes resolving into patterns, and then those patterns of crime became conscious, acquired a name and accepted sacrifice.

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

didn't quite yet know how to make a guild

This is an amazing line. Where do Gloranthan guilds come from? Where are they going?

Edited December 21, 2020 by scott-martin
stinger

[Brootse]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Not Dumb Enough!

Issaries is Lanbril's fencing subcult.

[scott-martin]

1 minute ago, Brootse said:

Issaries is Lanbril's fencing subcult.

Best Post Of The Year.

Followed closely by

15 hours ago, John Biles said:

Then he gave Eurmal the prettiest female fish and a bottle of wine and fled before he could find out the consequences.

I want everything available on this Southfaring, not coincidentally because we're temporarily down here in Florida and the only question is which of us is which. "We never saw them again."

 

[Leingod]

To reiterate the point that a.) there never has to be just one "patron god of x" or "god worshiped by y," and b.) that these gods, within a specific pursuit or purview, often differ mostly in their approach or reasons for doing a thing, or the skills they use to do them, I'll point out we're missing yet another "thief" god that might be found in Pavis, albeit obviously rarer than Orlanth or Lanbril (but probably more common than Eurmal): Yinkin. A god whose magic is often used to do things like climb or leap over obstacles, to move without sound, to see in the dark, to find things that are hidden, to notice and avoid threats? Whose followers are often stereotyped as selfish, full of guile, and overly interested in creature comforts and pleasure? It's easy to see how many Yinkini that find themselves in an urban environment would probably naturally gravitate toward thievery. The jokes about cat burglars write themselves, and I'm sure some old RuneQuest book somewhere has made at least a few already, if not plenty of peoples' campaigns.

I tend to think of the followers of these various "thief gods" as each having their own broad archetype, which of course individuals can and will deviate from but which work well as loose categories for different kinds of thieves these gods most embody. Lanbril I tend to see as a kind of "artisan thief;" Lanbril's cult is unique among the ones being discussed in the variety of clever tools and tricks they have up their sleeves, fitting with Lanbril's semi-mortal origins, his mythos of overcoming nominally superior gods through his great cunning, and the aforementioned guild-like feeling of how his cult tends to organize. Lanbril thieves are the professionals, reliant more on honed skill, careful planning, and the tricks of the trade than powerful divine magic to do their job, and while they take pride in their work, most of them think it'd be stupid to bandy that about outside their own circles. That contrasts with, as noted above, Yinkin, a god whose followers that engage in thievery do rely on skill, but not on tools, and who are well-suited to playing the "charming rogue" role to the hilt with their noted talents in seduction and winning smiles. You'll see similar distinctions drawn in the kinds of thievery followers of Orlanth and Eurmal are most likely to get up to, and how they'll often go about it.

[EricW]

I wonder if Lanbril ever reaches out to Trickster? Could be a hilarious scenario, say a raid on the private chamber of a Lunar noble, where only trickster magic can defeat the protections.

I mean how would you get trickster to behave and not completely stuff up the job? How do you prevent trickster running off with the prize?

[John Biles]

3 hours ago, EricW said:

I wonder if Lanbril ever reaches out to Trickster? Could be a hilarious scenario, say a raid on the private chamber of a Lunar noble, where only trickster magic can defeat the protections.

I mean how would you get trickster to behave and not completely stuff up the job? How do you prevent trickster running off with the prize?

You trick him.

Of course, inevitably, this blows up in your face.

 

[Leingod]

7 hours ago, EricW said:

I wonder if Lanbril ever reaches out to Trickster? Could be a hilarious scenario, say a raid on the private chamber of a Lunar noble, where only trickster magic can defeat the protections.

I mean how would you get trickster to behave and not completely stuff up the job? How do you prevent trickster running off with the prize?

I could see that as being one station of a myth, something like "The First Thief Ring," where Lanbril has to put together a crew to do a big heist, with Eurmal being that one unhinged guy in the heist movie who almost inevitably causes more trouble than he's worth (think Mr. Blonde in Reservoir Dogs). Perhaps Lanbril cultists could use it as a Heroquest to try to forge connections or even establish a leadership position in a criminal underworld that has other "thief gods" in it.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Leingod

[EricW]

29 minutes ago, Leingod said:

I could see that as being one station of a myth, something like "The First Thief Ring," where Lanbril has to put together a crew to do a big heist, with Eurmal being that one unhinged guy in the heist movie who almost inevitably causes more trouble than he's worth (think Mr. Blonde in Reservoir Dogs). Perhaps Lanbril cultists could use it as a Heroquest to try to forge connections or even establish a leadership position in a criminal underworld that has other "thief gods" in it.

Hilarious - the first thief ring. 

If Trickster does what he is told and the theft succeeds, the Trickster loses their affiliation with Eurmal - they become a Lanbril cultist.

If Trickster messes everything up, going behind everyone's back, lying, stirring up mischief, causing the participants to descend into a free for all brawl on the way to the job before they reach their target, Trickster gets an especially strong connection to the disorder rune; any organised enterprise in which Trickster is a participant will always go spectacularly wrong in some unhinged way, except for the LBQ.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

any organised enterprise in which Trickster is a participant will always go spectacularly wrong in some unhinged way, except for the LBQ.

I think more like "including the LBQ"!  

[Darius West]

I would point out that the Heortlings have 3 thief deities; Eurmal, Orlanth and Lanbril, as well as Finovan who steal cattle.  The take-away message is that Heortlings are larcenous, and the Orlanthi saying "nobody can make you do anything" really means nobody can make them stop stealing.

On 12/20/2020 at 3:18 AM, Eff said:

My feelings on Lanbril, laid out as a set of dialectical syntheses:

Th. 1) Lanbril feels very generically high-fantasy-conceit in comparison to most other gods. 

Anth. 1) Other gods are more real because they have developed societies which give them intellectual depth. 

Synth. 1/Th. 2) Lanbril's off-putting aspects are primarily because he's not had an organic society to exist in, just the newly developed New Pavis. 

Anth. 2) The existing semi-detailed urbanized societies don't have much room for Lanbril as anything other than a minor or imported deity.

Synth. 2/Th. 3) Lanbril's cult must have its center or centers outside of these. 

Therefore, Lanbril seems likely to be Fonritian, Kralori, or Teshnan in origin, at least in my provisional Glorantha. 

I would agree that Lanbril was created to provide a specifically thiefy deity for Pavis, no question, and we are now retrofitting Lanbril into other places.  On the other hand, we have the Griselda stories that serve to give Lanbril a lot of potential depth and point to his presence in Alone and Adari.  I have also read (somewhere) that Esrolia has a large Lanbril presence in their cities, especially in the poorer areas.  As to urbanized societies not having room for Lanbril, most societies try to get rid of thieves, big surprise, but criminals persist in most settlements despite this fact.  Lanbril is not the sort of cult that lets people come and join; they will either be a crime family that recruits or a syndicate that finds ways of controlling new members through blackmail or threats etc.  The really hard part will be for Lanbril cults to get more than basic shrine spells.  As to the unusual mechanical and alchemical tricks of Lanbril, they strongly hint at a Mostali connection imo.  Basically Lanbril will be largest where urban populations are largest.  Lanbril is absolutely a god of a criminal underclass and that requires poverty and population.  I think I read somewhere that he originates in Southern Peloria but I don't remember where I read that. 

 

[EricW]

12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I would point out that the Heortlings have 3 thief deities; Eurmal, Orlanth and Lanbril, as well as Finovan who steal cattle.  The take-away message is that Heortlings are larcenous, and the Orlanthi saying "nobody can make you do anything" really means nobody can make them stop stealing.

I would agree that Lanbril was created to provide a specifically thiefy deity for Pavis, no question, and we are now retrofitting Lanbril into other places.  On the other hand, we have the Griselda stories that serve to give Lanbril a lot of potential depth and point to his presence in Alone and Adari.  I have also read (somewhere) that Esrolia has a large Lanbril presence in their cities, especially in the poorer areas.  As to urbanized societies not having room for Lanbril, most societies try to get rid of thieves, big surprise, but criminals persist in most settlements despite this fact.  Lanbril is not the sort of cult that lets people come and join; they will either be a crime family that recruits or a syndicate that finds ways of controlling new members through blackmail or threats etc.  The really hard part will be for Lanbril cults to get more than basic shrine spells.  As to the unusual mechanical and alchemical tricks of Lanbril, they strongly hint at a Mostali connection imo.  Basically Lanbril will be largest where urban populations are largest.  Lanbril is absolutely a god of a criminal underclass and that requires poverty and population.  I think I read somewhere that he originates in Southern Peloria but I don't remember where I read that. 

 

I suspect Lanbril stole any alchemical tricks he mastered, there might well be a hero quest where he offers to help Mostali repair the world machine but instead grabs and runs off with something valuable, like a book of formulae.

Lanbril to me is about keeping low key. He carefully avoids being chaos like Krarsht or Thanatar, because being chaotic would attract too much attention. He probably exists in every sizeable settlement, in many different forms - many of which likely wouldn't even recognise each other as being the same cult. Like he is going to tell even his own followers all his secrets - the leader of thief rings always holds something back.

[John Biles]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I would point out that the Heortlings have 3 thief deities; Eurmal, Orlanth and Lanbril, as well as Finovan who steal cattle.  The take-away message is that Heortlings are larcenous, and the Orlanthi saying "nobody can make you do anything" really means nobody can make them stop stealing.

I would agree that Lanbril was created to provide a specifically thiefy deity for Pavis, no question, and we are now retrofitting Lanbril into other places.  On the other hand, we have the Griselda stories that serve to give Lanbril a lot of potential depth and point to his presence in Alone and Adari.  I have also read (somewhere) that Esrolia has a large Lanbril presence in their cities, especially in the poorer areas.  As to urbanized societies not having room for Lanbril, most societies try to get rid of thieves, big surprise, but criminals persist in most settlements despite this fact.  Lanbril is not the sort of cult that lets people come and join; they will either be a crime family that recruits or a syndicate that finds ways of controlling new members through blackmail or threats etc.  The really hard part will be for Lanbril cults to get more than basic shrine spells.  As to the unusual mechanical and alchemical tricks of Lanbril, they strongly hint at a Mostali connection imo.  Basically Lanbril will be largest where urban populations are largest.  Lanbril is absolutely a god of a criminal underclass and that requires poverty and population.  I think I read somewhere that he originates in Southern Peloria but I don't remember where I read that. 

 

Lanbril probably spread across the whole EWF zone during their era.  When there were lots of cities in Dragon Pass.

 

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, John Biles said:

Lanbril probably spread across the whole EWF zone during their era.  When there were lots of cities in Dragon Pass.

 

Those cities popped up even before the first people started talking and thinking in Auld Wyrmish. Possibly already when Palangio ruled over the Heortlings and Manirians as demigod conqueror, possibly setting up administrative centers. Bbut then, the high king's stead at Korolstead and other such places probably already had spilled out of their hillforts or filled the enclosed pastures up to the brim with housing before that.

The Kingdom of Orlanthland had no kings but was ruled by a ring of priests, and it appears that unlike the Grandmothers' Councils in Esrolia votes did not require unanimity but simple majority (otherwise the Old Way Traditionalists would never have been persecuted).

The hero who ended Arkat's Command would normally have been the prime candidate for the post of High King, but instead he became a Great Living Hero, receiving somewhat widespread worship from the people of Orlanthland, turning him into a demigod-like existence. Possibly to make his feat of thwarting the Shadowlords available wherever needed, thwarting uz demands everywhere.

Later, in the EWF, members of the ring would receive such worship, too, enabling them to take on great dragon shape defending the EWF. The Ponzi scheme accusation may have come from having to support a great number of such people upon joining the EWF, and not every place received its own dragon emperor.

 

Thieves thrive on trade. Lanbril has a parasitical relationship to Issaries and Argan Argar. The Market spells of Issaries prevent them from performing theft or sabotage inside the market area, but that protected area is limited in its expanse. People will have shops or warehouses outside of that, and that's where protection money, shoplifting and burglaries happen.

One problem here may be wyter awareness. A city's wyter cannot be a 24/7 thieves' alarm, and neither can a clan wyter alert for predators or cattle raiders on distant pastures.

We know of thieves - mainly the Orlanth / Desemborth kind - that enter clan settlements and steal clan regalia, presumably out of the clan temple. Without using arson as a distraction - the point of the exercise is to get inside, grab the thing, maybe defeat a single guardian or two in a non-lethal manner, and then schedaddle. Obviously, this cannot be done if clan wyter can pinpoint any intruder's position.

So how would people go about this?

A Eurmali might accept (the lowest form of) hospitality and then break his vow. These guys have nothing to lose in terms of honor or standing.

A Lanbril thief may not wish to incur such curses. A parasite doesn't cause its host a major immune reaction. A few exemplary burglaries and protection money in between such jobs go a lot further to keep your sorry gaggle fed. You'll have to defend your turf, though.

An Orlanth thief is all about honor and fame. He's the type to leave his trademark item behind, trusting on his reputation and his community to deflect any persecution. He may use Darkwalk or similar to enter and leave to avoid detections.

[Eff]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Those cities popped up even before the first people started talking and thinking in Auld Wyrmish. Possibly already when Palangio ruled over the Heortlings and Manirians as demigod conqueror, possibly setting up administrative centers. Bbut then, the high king's stead at Korolstead and other such places probably already had spilled out of their hillforts or filled the enclosed pastures up to the brim with housing before that.

The Kingdom of Orlanthland had no kings but was ruled by a ring of priests, and it appears that unlike the Grandmothers' Councils in Esrolia votes did not require unanimity but simple majority (otherwise the Old Way Traditionalists would never have been persecuted).

The hero who ended Arkat's Command would normally have been the prime candidate for the post of High King, but instead he became a Great Living Hero, receiving somewhat widespread worship from the people of Orlanthland, turning him into a demigod-like existence. Possibly to make his feat of thwarting the Shadowlords available wherever needed, thwarting uz demands everywhere.

Later, in the EWF, members of the ring would receive such worship, too, enabling them to take on great dragon shape defending the EWF. The Ponzi scheme accusation may have come from having to support a great number of such people upon joining the EWF, and not every place received its own dragon emperor.

 

Thieves thrive on trade. Lanbril has a parasitical relationship to Issaries and Argan Argar. The Market spells of Issaries prevent them from performing theft or sabotage inside the market area, but that protected area is limited in its expanse. People will have shops or warehouses outside of that, and that's where protection money, shoplifting and burglaries happen.

One problem here may be wyter awareness. A city's wyter cannot be a 24/7 thieves' alarm, and neither can a clan wyter alert for predators or cattle raiders on distant pastures.

We know of thieves - mainly the Orlanth / Desemborth kind - that enter clan settlements and steal clan regalia, presumably out of the clan temple. Without using arson as a distraction - the point of the exercise is to get inside, grab the thing, maybe defeat a single guardian or two in a non-lethal manner, and then schedaddle. Obviously, this cannot be done if clan wyter can pinpoint any intruder's position.

So how would people go about this?

A Eurmali might accept (the lowest form of) hospitality and then break his vow. These guys have nothing to lose in terms of honor or standing.

A Lanbril thief may not wish to incur such curses. A parasite doesn't cause its host a major immune reaction. A few exemplary burglaries and protection money in between such jobs go a lot further to keep your sorry gaggle fed. You'll have to defend your turf, though.

An Orlanth thief is all about honor and fame. He's the type to leave his trademark item behind, trusting on his reputation and his community to deflect any persecution. He may use Darkwalk or similar to enter and leave to avoid detections.

Or, to put it another way:

A Eurmal thief is suffering from a kleptomaniac compulsion.

A Lanbril thief is a professional.

An Orlanth Adventurous thief is Lupin the 3rd or wants to be. 

[Scorus]

On 12/21/2020 at 1:59 PM, scott-martin said:

This is an amazing line. Where do Gloranthan guilds come from? Where are they going?

Guilds in Glorantha date back at least to RQ2. You trained characteristics and skills from the fighters, thieves, alchemists, sage, minstrels, forester, mariner, armorer, and horsemaster guilds in the original book.They fell into obscurity after Cults of Prax differentiated most skills by cult instead of guild, but things like the weaponmaster and horsemaster guilds of Apple Lane still exist as places where people with various skills can gather across cults. I think you could expect to see guilds of some type in major cities.

[davecake]

Lanbril is essentially a minor deity worshipped by those of a particular profession, some ways comparable to a god like Minlister or Gustbran, except his profession is covert and considered undesirable, and so is his worship. Mythologically, he is unimportant, and he would no matter except he is useful to his worshippers. I think his status as a son of Grandfather Mortal would be common to many of these 'professional' gods, that exist as the minor god of a sort of thing that some mortals do. Compare, particularly, how in Kralorela there are the children of Aptanace the Sage, grandchildren of 'Grandfather Mortal' in this case, each of whom is the patron of a profession - the Kralorelan equivalent of Lanbril might be one of these. Some are important because of the importance of their profession, some have connections beyond the professional (such as important elemental associations, or important ancestry), some remain largely ignored by everyone but a few professionals. Gods of copyists and leathercrafters and charcoal burners and bookkeepers and bakers and millers and hundreds of other ways of making a living in a complex civilised society. 

And Lanbril stands out because: 

1. Thievery is a staple of both roleplaying games and fantasy fiction, so we want this one defined in a way that most other professions need not be. We want something for our thief PCs to use, so it has historically had a full write up, in contrast to, say, carpentry. 
2. Most other professional gods can be defined as a tiny sub-cult of a known god - little more than a name at best - but as Lanbril is considered socially unacceptable to be part of one of the main cults in society so needs to be dealt with separately. 
3. It mostly solves a bunch of world-building and GM plot building problems, by explaining how crime can flourish in a world with Divination and truth spells, spirits of retribution, etc. 

And so historically has had a full write up. But actually, we could probably have easily have just said thievery was an acknowledged part of the Orlanth cult (in the same way Hermes was acknowledged as the patron of thieves in the Greek pantheon) and others, written up a few notes about the Underworld, and made other explanations for the world-building (like making Divination Block accessible to others). That might even have been better world building, but it would have made for maybe less fun games, so long live Lanbril. 

It is claimed by God Learner types that all the thief gods are masks of the one Thief God, and I'd certainly make most of Lanbrils magic ultimately accessible to other Thief gods, though it is known that other thief cults (Selarn, or the Lamsabi) have a few magical variations. He also has a lot of 'cult only' skills etc, most of which really isn't at all restricted to the Lanbril cult (especially as a lot of it has a non-zero base chance - so anyone can do it badly, and then increase by experience, and then teach others), but they are the only people who have institutionalised it. The Lanbril cult sort of stands in for 'the underworld' in that respect. I certainly think that treating it as a collection of small organisations with tiny hero/spirit cults etc rather than anything close to a consistent organised cult is much better. Create variants for every new city you want to populate, and use the bits of Lanbril you like.

Personally, one of the variants I keep bringing up is that there is probably a fair bit of overlap in practice between Lanbril type organisations, and ancestor worship - Ancestor worshippers tend to keep to themselves and stay out of many of the major cultural cults, and criminal organisations that are based on famiily bonds of trust are a common cross-cultural phenomenon. And Ancestor worship is very handy for criminals - for example, ancestors can teach spells or skills covertly without having to attract outside attention, and can provide thieves worried about magic without with good magical defenses.

 

 

[davecake]

On 12/25/2020 at 9:11 AM, Darius West said:

I would agree that Lanbril was created to provide a specifically thiefy deity for Pavis, no question, and we are now retrofitting Lanbril into other places. 

It was introduced because Pavis was the first supplement that really dealt with the criminal element in Glorantha, as well as being the first supplement that dealt with urban areas in Glorantha. But right from its first publication it was said to be the god of the criminal underworld in 'human societies across the world', there just weren't supplements that dealt with other cities in detail until long afterwards. We didn't retrofit anything, because at the time there were no other supplements dealing with cities or the criminal underworld. We aren't retrofitting Lanbril to anything - we are finally getting around to having more than one moderate sized city described in any detail, and when we get around to describing the criminal underworld of cities in any detail, thief gods are one of the things that should be included, which means Lanbril for most of the Orlanthi cultural areas.

On 12/25/2020 at 9:11 AM, Darius West said:

As to urbanized societies not having room for Lanbril, most societies try to get rid of thieves, big surprise, but criminals persist in most settlements despite this fact. 

 

Almost the opposite - urbanised societies are the ones that do have room for Lanbril. Thievery historically is well documented, with the Code of Hammurabi having laws against thievery, ancient magic dealing with thievery, and so on. 

It's always seemed that they aren't part of rural or clan life, and exist only where there is trade and a wealthy elite to prey on. I think you get cities, you get thieves. 

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Almost the opposite - urbanised societies are the ones that do have room for Lanbril. Thievery historically is well documented, with the Code of Hammurabi having laws against thievery, ancient magic dealing with thievery, and so on. 

It's always seemed that they aren't part of rural or clan life, and exist only where there is trade and a wealthy elite to prey on. I think you get cities, you get thieves. 

Yes, that's what I said.

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Darius West

[Joerg]

Lanbril stands out in another way - he defies categorization. Most deities are children or grandchildren of elemental deities (Srvuali in Malkioni cladistic) or they are the result of the Powers mating and mixing, or with the Elementals, to produce Burtae.

The only ancestry we get for Lanbril is that he was a son of Grandfather Mortal. Who may have been a member of the Celestial Court as the personification of the Man Rune, which (weirdly) removed him from being oh so divine and grand as all the other Court deities.

The powers Lanbril inherited are only those of the human nature.

 

In other words, Lanbril is a mortal who became a god. Already in Godtime.

He is not a Prometheus - that's Eurmal. Born of the Elder gods, going against the unjust ruling cabal of deities (Yelm's Court) to bring Fire to those humans not directly blessed by the Emperor's demand for immediate and unyielding obedience.

He is not a Hercules. No divine spark, no elemental power, no power rune in his magical make-up. What runes he calls his have been stolen, or picked up, like the tatters of Tylenea's cloak after her failure to tame the Boggles.

Of the three runes listed in the Pavis box, only Disorder and Illusion are available as character runes in RQG. Mastery needs to be acquired by heroquesting. Has Lanbril already shown up in the pre-release of Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha? Does he get a third rune, or does he come as a subset of Eurmal's runes?

 

1 minute ago, davecake said:

It was introduced because Pavis was the first supplement that really dealt with the criminal element in Glorantha, as well as being the first supplement that dealt with urban areas in Glorantha.

But then, already the RQ2 rules gave us The Black Fang as a criminal cult, an example of a minor or hero cult.

 

1 minute ago, davecake said:

But right from its first publication it was said to be the god of the criminal underworld in 'human societies across the world', there just weren't supplements that dealt with other cities in detail until long afterwards. We didn't retrofit anything, because at the time there were no other supplements dealing with cities or the criminal underworld. We aren't retrofitting Lanbril to anything - we are finally getting around to having more than one moderate sized city described in any detail, and when we get around to describing the criminal underworld of cities in any detail, thief gods are one of the things that should be included, which means Lanbril for most of the Orlanthi cultural areas.

Even the Pavis box gives us the paragraph on non-Lanbril thieves, but that paragraph also suggests that his cult is at large in Sartar and neighboring lands.

It is sad but true that we don't have any urban scenarios for Glorantha outside of New Pavis until the theft of Hofstaring's hands from the Royal Palace in Boldhome, and that hardly uses the urban setting. Chaosium did produce some of the best urban settings in cooperation with Midkemia Press, re-printing The City of Carse and compiling the Thieves World box. But while these could be played in Glorantha (and were, by the Chaosium house campaign), they weren't published as such.

(Thieves World does have a prominent thieves' god in Shalpa, though - son of the ruling god Ils, whose people and empire have been defeated by the Rankan empire presided over by the sun god Savankala and his happy family, including Vashanka the Ten-Slayer who vanquished his brothers - good approximations of Yelm and Shargash.)

We got descriptions of major cities and metropolises in the Genertela Box. and with a little booklet with additional information, the first box of the Avalon Hill RuneQuest series could have been the starting point for a campaign in urban Tarsh, Saird or Dara Happa. Unfortunately nobody jumped onto this when that box came out, possibly stunned by the absence of Glorantha content when it simply followed the publication strategy behind The City of Carse and Thieves World.

 

1 minute ago, davecake said:

Almost the opposite - urbanised societies are the ones that do have room for Lanbril. Thievery historically is well documented, with the Code of Hammurabi having laws against thievery, ancient magic dealing with thievery, and so on. 

Much of that is theft in markets. Researching the RQ2 spells Create Market and Warding, all a thief needs to enter an Issaries Market without triggering the alarm and Disrupt is a sufficiently large Detection Blank. Create Market is a 3 rune power spell, but most of those two extra points seem to go into enlarging the area from 81m², whereas the Create Market spell has a range of 160 meters (presumably the side length of the warded area? Total side length?).

Alternatively, a large number of would-be thieves or attackers could cross the boundary (marked by a "very dull Lightwall") en masse, either toughing out the Disrupt (Disrupt 1, I assume), or preventing to be hit by a Countermagic 1 (if the Create Market acts like a Warding 1) or Countermagic 5 (if all three rune power points of the spell need to be countered) and then have a designated group of scapegoats running away suspiciously, drawing any gullible guards after them. (Similar questions come up for the necessary size of the Detection Blank. But that really belongs into the RQ forum)

Anyway, an Issaries market with its magical barrier, alarm and punishment can be overcome by magic or bravado.

Any market is a target rich area for thieves, as are the inns and hostels that provide the traders from further away a place to stay. So are the stables where beasts of burden are taken care of, and possibly unloaded.

A Gloranthan mugging can be a lot more pleasant than the physical one with the use of Befuddle. Or Sleep - a Chalana Arroy cultist only has to guarantee the physical well-being of her spell's target, the spell description doesn't say anything about belongings, and taking off the shoes may hinder any subsequent pursuit. Public nudity won't raise that much of a heckle in Orlanthi places.

Thieves are attracted by places where mobile items of value are concentrated. They follow trade or salary distribution.

 

1 minute ago, davecake said:

It's always seemed that they aren't part of rural or clan life, and exist only where there is trade and a wealthy elite to prey on. I think you get cities, you get thieves. 

Rural markets are as good playgrounds. Few of them will have the seasonal protection of a Create Market, and those that do can still be picked on from the fringes or by subversion. Any situation where you can expect rubbing shoulders with strangers offer an opportunity for a thief.

Thieves rings tend to operate like miniature Orlanthi clans. Every haul that cannot be eaten right away is brought to the ringleader and then (hopefully) distributed to the members of the ring. Some will be gathered as tribute (bribe) to officials. Maybe as donations to the local Issaries shrine.

Ransom is unlikely for entry level members, but higher ups might actually have something like a ransom.

 

Inside a single clan, there isn't much need for a market. Most transactions are done on a tab, or on a favour economy. There may be an exchange of tokens, or some form of book-keeping, but usually these transactions are done before witnesses, which eliminates any need to carry around valuables. These kind of transactions don't attract thieves, although the person walking away with a new possession might.

Tokens indicating the exchange of a favour may be targeted by thieves. Such as coinage, or letters of credit. Or simply an item carrying the stamp of a seal.

Exchange of tokens of wealth (such as coinage, actual cows or smaller denominations of domestic beasts, or food) will happen between clans. Not every trade needs authorisation by the clan chief, but many trades need at least authorisation by the stead holder or his nominated deputy. Actual personal property isn't that common while you live with your clan or guild. Much of what you carry or wear will be a loan or a lease by your community or your patron. These items may still attract the avarice of others, including thieves.

 

The institution of cattle raid is the expression of one of the Orlanthi principles of property - only those who can maintain their claim on property have said claim. If you cannot ward off a cattle raid, your claim of ownership (or guardianship) was too weak.

This view of ownership can be carried over into the theft of stuff other than cattle. But then, what rules are there to stop an angry clansman to enter the chief's house and take all the regalia of the clan for himself, and demand that the clan accept him as the chief?

[Darius West]

On 12/26/2020 at 3:09 AM, Scorus said:

Guilds in Glorantha date back at least to RQ2. You trained characteristics and skills from the fighters, thieves, alchemists, sage, minstrels, forester, mariner, armorer, and horsemaster guilds in the original book.They fell into obscurity after Cults of Prax differentiated most skills by cult instead of guild, but things like the weaponmaster and horsemaster guilds of Apple Lane still exist as places where people with various skills can gather across cults. I think you could expect to see guilds of some type in major cities.

Everything above is correct, but let me add a bit of info as it is something I have spent some time on.  Guilds are a long term feature of the Heortling urban landscape, and in fact such organizations have existed as professional organizations in real world history for an extraordinary long time. In every urban society you find similar systems emerging from pre-feudal Japan, to Sumer, to Rome.  Artisans form quasi-religious organizations to protect their professional knowledge, and stop external competition, often with a patron saint or deity.  New Pavis supplements all make some mention of the Pavic guilds.  In Sartar, there is even a "Guild Ring" that rules in places like Jonstown, where the settlement borders multiple tribes and clans that have an interest in the place.  Many guilds will form the core of the worship of some local deities i.e. Gustbran for smiths, Minlister for brewers and vintners, Lhankor Mhy for Alchemists, Book Binders, Scribes etc, Donandar for minstrels etc, but the guilds are generally going to be separate organizations to the cults.  The notion was that you can take a guild apprenticeship for a series of background skills and a little militia training for free weapon skills in RQ2.

[JonL]

On 12/20/2020 at 3:02 PM, soltakss said:

We have myths about Lanbril, but he keeps in the shadows and you cannot always tell that it is Lanbril.

 

I bet you could do many other cults' heroquests as Lanbril, either as an impostor - Lanbril masquerading as a supporting character in the tale and pulling a fast one without the other characters realizing it, or as a hidden participant acting alongside but unbeknownst to the other characters - helping or hindering them by turns for his own benefit.

An Arkatic Lanbril cult in Safelster centered around the divine mystery of just who stole all these other cults' secrets from whom is left as an exercire to the reader.

[aumshantih]

And now for something completely different:
In the game I am running currently, we are looking at the Theft / Unequal Exchange Rune from the perspective of the Thief Antigodess of Vithela.

"But Bandan was not foolish enough to depend on those armies alone. He made the Terrible Sacrifice, which is of living beings, and made Sedsaru come and obey him. He then made her invisible, and sent her into the gods’ own resplendent city of delight. It was so beautiful that she was almost tempted away from her mission, but in the end she stole only the Singing Conch Shell. She gave it, then, to Great Keltari, and went back to Bandan to beg for another chance to enter the gods’ city in secret."
- from "The Keltari War, or the End of the High God Cycle, or, How the Islands were Made."

Sedsaru.  Vithelan antigod of theft, worshipped by Vithelans who steal, and also widely honored in a mango harvest festival. She is one of the Adpara, and was once instrumental in helping Keltari conquer the gods.

- from "Revealed Mythologies"

There are some interesting parallels we can make if we put on our God Learner hats.   Again theft / the trickster are linked to "the terrible sacrifice" - the discovery of Death.   Unsure where the mango festival comes in, but I have some ideas abrewing.