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Rune spells from allied cults


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I am sorry if this was asked before, I have not seen it. If a player wishes to gain and be able to cast a Rune spell from an allied cult (for example Flight from Orlanth as an Issaries initiate), would the procedure be the same as getting a special rune spell from his cult/temple, or would he need find and visit the allied cult temple/shrine to and sacrifice  POW to gain the knowledge of the spell (I understand he would use the same Rune Pool to cast it).

If one is an initiate of two allied cults Orlanth and Storm Bull for example and gained a spell which the one cult offers to the other as allies, lets say Shield from Orlanth to Storm Bull, which Rune Pool should it be cast from? Would the player need to sacrifice for it from both, and could it be stacked since its has ultimately came from the same source? 

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I think it's a definite No.

No real need. Just a simple rule that says you can only use the Runes that the deity has access to... Ernalda Rune Spells can only be cast using Earth, Fertility, Harmony. Problem solvered!  

As noted on RQG p.74 "These gods are worshiped by the cult in conjunction with the primary god."  At a basic level you can learn the spirit magic of the associated cult.  But beyond that is what is no

Don't know whats the "right" answers but for the first I would just let the player get it at his/her temple. For the second one i would say you would have to say what spell belong to which pool so if you got shield directly from Orlanth then you cast using the Orlanth pool or you can get it via Storm Bull and then you cast it using the Storm Bull pool.

 

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If a spell has been given by an associate cult then it is freely available, as per the terms of the donation.

Orlanth provides Flight to Issaries, so all Issaries Initiates and higher can sacrifice for Flight and cast it using their Issaries Rune Pool. It effectively becomes an Orlanth spell.

I suppose you could say that Orlanthi actually learn it at the Issaries shrine in an Orlanth Temple, but that still works OK.

An initiate of multiple deities that share spells can cast it from either Rune points. In the case of shield, they could probably combine Rune Pools and cast a really big version.

 

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1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

If a player wishes to gain and be able to cast a Rune spell from an allied cult (for example Flight from Orlanth as an Issaries initiate), would the procedure be the same as getting a special rune spell from his cult/temple, or would he need find and visit the allied cult temple/shrine to and sacrifice  POW to gain the knowledge of the spell (I understand he would use the same Rune Pool to cast it).

As noted on RQG p.74 "These gods are worshiped by the cult in conjunction with the primary god."  At a basic level you can learn the spirit magic of the associated cult.  But beyond that is what is noted on RQG p.283 "When an adventurer sacrifices a point of POW to increase their Rune point pool, they can select a Rune spell from an associated cult worshiped at that temple instead of selecting a Rune spell from their main cult or subcult. The associated cult must be one worshiped at that temple."

So, learning the available Rune spell from the Associated cult is no different from learning the usual Rune spells of their cult, but is only available at certain temples (i.e. it functions like a subcult).  Initiation into the Associated Cult is not a requirement here (though could be a next step to take), nor a need to go to a specific temple of the Associated Cult.  As the examples indicate, you cast the Rune spells from the associated cult using your deity's Rune point pool.  Likely they could renew their Rune points at the temples of the associated deity though.  

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Thank you for your answers. From what I am gathering so far, technically one gets an allied rune spell originally form the allied deity's shrine/temple which may actually be located in their temple. But, they could also get it by going to the allied cult's temple as well. All good on this.

Being able to use POW from both pools to make one really big spell and in fact bigger than if you one was just an initiate of one ... does not seem right. In the previous example of an Orlanthi - Storm Bull would one even need to sacrifice for Shield as an Orlanthi, if it was one previously as a Storm Bull?

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1 hour ago, OxygenO2 said:
1 hour ago, soltakss said:

An initiate of multiple deities that share spells can cast it from either Rune points.

Interesting, I must have missed (or forgotten) this, where in the rules is this?

I am not sure if it is specifically stated, but is definitely implied. 

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3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

If one is an initiate of two allied cults Orlanth and Storm Bull for example and gained a spell which the one cult offers to the other as allies, lets say Shield from Orlanth to Storm Bull, which Rune Pool should it be cast from? Would the player need to sacrifice for it from both, and could it be stacked since its has ultimately came from the same source? 

I'd allow either to be used. You could say that the spell has to be learned separately, since Storm Bull used the power in a different way to Orlanth in the myths, but I don't see the need myself.

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I agree with  @jajagappa

For me you sacrifice power to increase the rune pool of One Cult. During this process, you can learn some secrets from your temple (so that means the temple must know the secret of your wishing spell, from associated cult or from your cult)

 

So when you are initiate to two cults :

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

If one is an initiate of two allied cults Orlanth and Storm Bull for example and gained a spell which the one cult offers to the other as allies, lets say Shield from Orlanth to Storm Bull, which Rune Pool should it be cast from? Would the player need to sacrifice for it from both, and could it be stacked since its has ultimately came from the same source? 

if you sacrifice one pow in an Orlanth temple, as an orlanthi initiate, you learn how Orlanth manipulates shield and you know Orlanth's magic (in my glorantha : prayer )

if you sacrifice one pow in a Storm Bull temple, as a storm bull initiate, you learn how Storm Bull obtains was armed by Orlanth and you know  Storm Bull's magic (in my glorantha : prayer)

 

I don't know if you can or not cumulate rune pool to create a bigger effect. I dislike the idea (so munchkin) but I cannot say you can't or you can. May Arachne Solara to never have to decide ! (well except if there is a clear rule somewhere)

 

 

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2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Being able to use POW from both pools to make one really big spell and in fact bigger than if you one was just an initiate of one ... does not seem right.

That you can't.

If you worship Orlanth and there is a shrine to say Storm Bull at your temple, and Storm Bull is an associated cult, then you, as an Orlanth initiate, can gain the Rune spell that Storm Bull offers Orlanth.  You have one Rune point pool - Orlanth's - and you use that for the associated Rune spell (which you did not have to initiate for).

If you initiate into Storm Bull as well as Orlanth, you now gain a 2nd Rune Point pool to Storm Bull (and select a Storm Bull spell for that pool).  Generally, you would use your Orlanth Rune point pool to cast Orlanth magic, and your Storm Bull Rune point pool for Storm Bull magic.  There's no inherent reason you could not learn/cast the specific associated cult spell (i.e. Storm Bull one) through the primary cult's Rune point pool if you have more Rune points there.  But you could not cast say Face Chaos via Orlanth, because that is not the associated cult spell available - that's Storm Bull's and you've gained that through your Storm Bull initiation/Rune point pool.

 

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4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I am sorry if this was asked before, I have not seen it. If a player wishes to gain and be able to cast a Rune spell from an allied cult (for example Flight from Orlanth as an Issaries initiate), would the procedure be the same as getting a special rune spell from his cult/temple, or would he need find and visit the allied cult temple/shrine to and sacrifice  POW to gain the knowledge of the spell (I understand he would use the same Rune Pool to cast it).

It's noted on page 284 that Major temples have shrines to one of the allied cults, while Great Temples have shrines to all of them.

So, with your example of an Issaries initiate, they would find a major temple with an Orlanth shrine in it to learn Flight (as mentioned on page 283. In fact the example given there is an Issaries merchant learning Flight at the Boldhome temple of Issaries.).

 

 

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4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I don't know if you can or not cumulate rune pool to create a bigger effect. I dislike the idea (so munchkin) but I cannot say you can't or you can.

Page 275 of the RQG book it notes that these are distinct.  "Adventurers must maintain a separate pool of Rune points for each cult they are a member of, and the number of Rune points they may possess with that cult is equal to their CHA" and page 313 "If an adventurer is a member of more than one cult, they must have a separate pool of Rune points for each god."  The implication is that you cannot combine Rune point pools for mega-effects.  So, it's a trade-off:  do you want to pool all your POW sacrifice with one deity so you can get stronger effects (for stackable spells), or do you want a broader range of magics at hand but with more limited ability to stack your magic?

But... you could still have that specific Associated Rune spell in your primary cult Rune point pool arsenal.  Just think of it from the mythic perspective - some story where Storm Bull taught Orlanth how to Face Chaos, or they stood back-to-back at Stormfall when Chaos came, etc.  And that myth/story is taught at your temple.

But Storm Bull kept the power of the Berserk to himself - didn't share that with Orlanth.  If you want to become a Berserk, you either need to initiate to Storm Bull, or gain the ability on a Heroquest.

 

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18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As noted on RQG p.74 "These gods are worshiped by the cult in conjunction with the primary god."  At a basic level you can learn the spirit magic of the associated cult.  But beyond that is what is noted on RQG p.283 "When an adventurer sacrifices a point of POW to increase their Rune point pool, they can select a Rune spell from an associated cult worshiped at that temple instead of selecting a Rune spell from their main cult or subcult. The associated cult must be one worshiped at that temple."

Does that temple have to be a temple of my primary god? Can a worshiper of Orlanth go to an Ernalda temple supporting an associate shrine to Orlanth and another deity and get the associate spell from that other deity? Seems to work for Barntar and Heler, I believe.

 

15 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I think it's a definite No.

As I read the rules for spells that stack, not in a single casting. It looks like it is possible for several people to cast Shield on a single recipient and have those castings add up, so it should be possible for a single caster who has Shield from two runepoint pools to cast it twice. The subsequent casting would need to be boosted to overcome the previous stackings' cumulative Coutermagic effect, though.

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16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

"If an adventurer is a member of more than one cult, they must have a separate pool of Rune points for each god."  The implication is that you cannot combine Rune point pools for mega-effects

well it could be my english, but as I understand the "if" of the rules, it's just say you cannot use the rune pool of one god (aka the pow you sacrifice for this god) to cast spell from the second one. But

If I learn shield with Orlanth (a pow sacrifice for orlanth so +1 orlanth rune pool), AND with storm bull (another pow sacrifice for stormbull so +1 stormbuull rune pool) Could I cast and cumulate shield (full Orlanth rune pool) and shield (full Storm Bull rune pool). I hope no, but I see no clear point here (or I miss something ?)

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5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

well it could be my english, but as I understand the "if" of the rules, it's just say you cannot use the rune pool of one god (aka the pow you sacrifice for this god) to cast spell from the second one. But

If I learn shield with Orlanth (a pow sacrifice for orlanth so +1 orlanth rune pool), AND with storm bull (another pow sacrifice for stormbull so +1 stormbuull rune pool) Could I cast and cumulate shield (full Orlanth rune pool) and shield (full Storm Bull rune pool). I hope no, but I see no clear point here (or I miss something ?)

I guess it is one of those cases you need to decide what is best for your game. The way I see it, if you have Shield with Orlanth and Shield with Storm Bull, they are still two separate spells (even if Storm Bull gets it from association with Orlanth) so you have to cast one or the other. Having it twice gives you the flexibility to draw from one RP pool or the other but not combine them.

Now, can you stack spells from various sources? I'd be tempted to say that only the most powerful applies. It seems more reasonable.

Having said that, I haven't gone back and read the section or looked at the Well so I might be wrong. 

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7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

If I learn shield with Orlanth (a pow sacrifice for orlanth so +1 orlanth rune pool), AND with storm bull (another pow sacrifice for stormbull so +1 stormbuull rune pool) Could I cast and cumulate shield (full Orlanth rune pool) and shield (full Storm Bull rune pool). I hope no, but I see no clear point here (or I miss something ?)

I'd likely treat them as separate implementations. Consider the sidebar for "Heal Wound" on page 330. This is one of the "common" spells known to pretty much all cults, yet they are incompatible in how they take effect.

Quote

Heal Wound is the most powerful healing magic available to most adventurers. For 1 Rune point, an adventurer can heal as many hit points of damage as they spend magic points on.

Each cult’s version of Heal Wound is subtly different.

For some examples, Humakt’s Heal Wound uses Death or Truth to mortify the wounded flesh so that the injury can be denied or ignored. It always leaves painful scarring. Ernalda’s Heal Wound uses Fertility or Harmony to knit the wounded flesh back together without scarring or pain. Orlanth’s Heal Wound uses Air to bring enough breath to the victim that it simply overpowers the wound.

Even if an associated cult originally "learns" the spell from the "parent" cult, it may have developed differences making it incompatible.

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3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm 100% sure that that is not possible.

Where does it say so?

P.315 of the rules says "Rune magic spells can be  stacked (combining several castings into one) if the spell is  described as stackable." (Emphasis mine)

Several castings doesn't mean several rune points, but several times this specific rune spell (or a compatible spell) being cast on the target, as I read this sentence.

I agree that spirit spells like Protection, Countermagic or Spirit Screen cannot be stacked with other castings of the same spell. Protection or Countermagic can be stacked with Shield (with Countermagic acting strangely in all these circumstances). And still, only one casting of say Protection can be stacked on top of Shield.

If you cast a Protection spell on a target already protected by a Protection spell, in order to take effect your new Protection spell needs more penetration than the existing spell has in order to replace it. Equal or less points, and nothing happens, and the ongoing Protection won't be extended.

I don't see this provision for Shield spells, though, which are written to be stackable with subsequent or pre-existing spells. These pre-existing spells will have expiration times different from the new casting.

 

Slash is a similar case. "Each point of Slash increases the damage done by 1D6." doesn't say that all points need to be cast at once.

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14 hours ago, Joerg said:

As I read the rules for spells that stack, not in a single casting. It looks like it is possible for several people to cast Shield on a single recipient and have those castings add up, so it should be possible for a single caster who has Shield from two runepoint pools to cast it twice. The subsequent casting would need to be boosted to overcome the previous stackings' cumulative Coutermagic effect, though.

I specifically asked that question in Q and A one (Now officically closed and moved to Well of Daliath), and Scotty answered saying it was up to the GM whether this was possible, and he cited MGF and a guide for making that decision..

 

8 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

I guess it is one of those cases you need to decide what is best for your game. The way I see it, if you have Shield with Orlanth and Shield with Storm Bull, they are still two separate spells (even if Storm Bull gets it from association with Orlanth) so you have to cast one or the other. Having it twice gives you the flexibility to draw from one RP pool or the other but not combine them.

 

As I (or Scotty said

 

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm 100% sure that that is not possible.

I would have agreed, but...

 

Edited by Bill the barbarian
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I have the same reading as @Joerg and @jajagappa:

  1. If the PC knows two instances of Shield linked to 2 different Rune point pools (Orlanth and Issaries), then those are 2 different spells, with different visual effects and flavour (as per the boxed text on healing spells).
  2. Being two spells, they have to be cast one after the other (they can't be both cast on the same SR as stacked or whatever).
  3. Shield can be cast on top of another existing Shield. The description explicitly says that, when broken through, Shield doesn't dissipate. So if the second casting is boosted with enough MPs to piece through the first one, the character ends up with 2 different ongoing Shields, with 2 different end times (probably just a few seconds apart from each other), and with 2 different visual effects and flavour.

As for the OP, when the associated cult (Orlanth) has better temple coverage than the main cult (Issaries), I would allow the spell to be learned at that associated cult's temple. So an Issaries merchant would be able to walk into any Orlanth temple (whether or not it contains an Issaries shrine) and learn whatever spells are available to them as as associated cult. I would handwave it if there's not much about it, but it can also be a good way to play a short scene in order to introduce an NPC.

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17 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I hope no, but I see no clear point here

well, after reflection (not the spell) and reading you I fully disagree with myself...

1) yes it is cumulative, and it is not a trick to maximize powergaming : if you have one cult and sacrifice 5 pow, you can have shield 5, if you have two cults and sacrifice 5 pow in the two cults ( 4+1 or 3+2) you can have shield 5 and no more. sense of munchkin is like sens of chaos; sometimes you fumble and kill the innocent.

2) I will follow @lordabdul options. That is weird that you have to overpower the first shield (countermagic part) but somewhere, it is the "block any magic effect" and not a "protect against offensive magic effect"

 

 

 

 

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I will just put in my 2 cents worth...

In the case of Associated cults, such as Storm Bull and Orlanth, I personally would allow the Shield spells to stack for the simple reason that the Shield from Storm Bull's Association with Orlanth means that it's actually an Orlanthi spell! (hence why you need to use one of Orlanth's Runes to cast said spell, and not one of Storm Bull's Runes).

However, if the relevant spells come from different gods (including associate gods), then all bets are off! So, if an Ernaldan  initiate picked up Shield from Orlanth, and later joined Yelm as an Intitiate (and rose to Archer level), they could sacrifice for Shield normally.... Because the source of the spell (god) isn't the same, I don't think they should stack.

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