Rune spells from allied cults

[PhilHibbs]

It is, of course, perfectly fine to allow this, but I don't think it is the default position. Even for associate spells, what Orlanth did in his myths to protect himself from physical and magical harm is different from what Urox did when Orlanth gave him protection.

And the rules for stackable spells are clear that all the castings that are stacked are rolled for once on SR 1 (unless extra MPs are added).

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It is, of course, perfectly fine to allow this, but I don't think it is the default position. Even for associate spells, what Orlanth did in his myths to protect himself from physical and magical harm is different from what Urox did when Orlanth gave him protection.

Although it's entirely pendantic, I guess it's somewhat interesting to figure out which of these options an "associated cult spell" represents:

1. Orlanth taught Storm Bull to protect himself during the God Time. Orlanth retains the "ownership" of the Shield spell (i.e. you acquire it from Orlanth's cult, basically as a way to not "steal the credit" from him). When you cast it, you re-enact Storm Bull himself casting it, and during that SR when you cast it, you take on Storm Bull's appearance.
2. Orlanth protected Storm Bull with his shield during the God Time. Storm Bull doesn't know how to cast shield -- but Storm Bull cultists can call upon Orlanth via Storm Bull to get this protection, just like their god did. This is represented by using Storm Bull's Rune Points, as opposed to calling Orlanth directly via Orlanth's Rune Points. But still, when you cast the spell, you take on Orlanth's appearance, not Storm Bull's.

I myself don't care too much either way, and in the interest of keeping the rules simpler, I go with the option that the two "spell ecosystems" are separate (which is interpretation 1 above). It's just easier to treat the Rune Point pools independent... we already have enough rules and corner cases to keep in mind

Edited December 21, 2020 by lordabdul

[PhilHibbs]

11 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Although it's entirely pendantic, I guess it's somewhat interesting to figure out which of these options an "associated cult spell" represents:

Could be some are the first, and some are the second. I think more often the second. I don't think a Storm Bull worshipper would "become" Orlanth to cast it though. They would maybe shout out something like "Brother, shield me whilst I fight off your foes!" and clouds swirl around the caster.

[Joerg]

An Orlanth initiate wishing to cast Charisma has to do it through Eurmal's Illusion rune rather than any of Orlanth's runes (although I would allow Mastery if a player had somehow managed to acquire that rune that isn't in the rules, yet).

Interactions between deities may very well be seen as Storm Bull wielding a fragment of Orlanth.

In the mundane world, I don't think I would spend too much finicking on whether different cults' magics do stuff to the caster. In a magically more sensitive environment, like on a heroquest, the origin of the spell might have way more tangible consequences - possibly leaving a character echo temporarily altering the characters temperament (as expressed by their power runes). (That would mess up non-elemental cultists, though...)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

44 minutes ago, Joerg said:

An Orlanth initiate wishing to cast Charisma has to do it through Eurmal's Illusion rune

Reasonable.  But, the rules are that you use any one of the runes for that spell: Illusion, Fertility, or Beast. 

Remember that Ernalda and Yinkin also have that spell, though that's technically irrelevant.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Reasonable.  But, the rules are that you use any one of the runes for that spell: Illusion, Fertility, or Beast. 

Remember that Ernalda and Yinkin also have that spell, though that's technically irrelevant.

I would GM this that Charisma from Ernalda has to go through Fertility, Charisma from Yinkin has to go through Beast, and Charisma from Eurmal has to go through Illusion. The side effects would show, too - although all three of these sources bring sexual tension into the recipient of the spell.

Which spells exactly are granted to an associate cult and who decided on that (for the cult write-ups) is not quite clear to me. And it is possible that subcults (below current publication thresholds) may have other associate gifts than the main cult. The Tales of Tat and Tol, the sexual escapades of (too) young Orlanth and Yinkin, may be found in the Niskis the Lover rites, where Orlanth might receive a bit of a cat-eared and -whiskered sex appeal from his furry brother. But then, Eurmal is as likely to appear in the Tales of Tat and Tol as he is in the tales of other Storm Village residents (Vinga, Babeester Gor). While Orlanth reproduced with Heler on several occasions (one of them being the Orlanthi myth about the origin of clouds), I doubt his sexual adventures with Heler were limited to Heler's female forms and shapes. Their sister Inora may have seen something more than innuendo, too - deities (and demigods) have much lower incest taboos than ordinary mortals (whose ordinariness might be the result of such breeding with limited amounts of ancestors).

I don't see any scenario where Ernalda would lend her version of Charisma - the leash by which she holds her protectors - over to one of her protectors. No worshiper of Orlanth would get to use Fertility to roll for the Charisma spell in my games. YGWV.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Joerg

[Rodney Dangerduck]

44 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I would GM this that Charisma from Ernalda has to go through Fertility, Charisma from Yinkin has to go through Beast, and Charisma from Eurmal has to go through Illusion.

Since a Eurmali need not cast using Illusion, and could use Fertility or Beast instead, the Yinkin need not cast using Beast, etc... this seems artificially restrictive.

(Our current Eurmali PC is only ~50% in Illusion)

[French Desperate WindChild]

37 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Since a Eurmali need not cast using Illusion, and could use Fertility or Beast instead, the Yinkin need not cast using Beast, etc... this seems artificially restrictive.

agree !

the visual effect should be associated with the runes used for the spell. Gods are associated with some runes of course but they can have learned / acquired / inscribed others too during their own adventures.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I would GM this that Charisma from Ernalda has to go through Fertility, Charisma from Yinkin has to go through Beast, and Charisma from Eurmal has to go through Illusion. The side effects would show, too - although all three of these sources bring sexual tension into the recipient of the spell.

Which spells exactly are granted to an associate cult and who decided on that (for the cult write-ups) is not quite clear to me. And it is possible that subcults (below current publication thresholds) may have other associate gifts than the main cult. The Tales of Tat and Tol, the sexual escapades of (too) young Orlanth and Yinkin, may be found in the Niskis the Lover rites, where Orlanth might receive a bit of a cat-eared and -whiskered sex appeal from his furry brother. But then, Eurmal is as likely to appear in the Tales of Tat and Tol as he is in the tales of other Storm Village residents (Vinga, Babeester Gor). While Orlanth reproduced with Heler on several occasions (one of them being the Orlanthi myth about the origin of clouds), I doubt his sexual adventures with Heler were limited to Heler's female forms and shapes. Their sister Inora may have seen something more than innuendo, too - deities (and demigods) have much lower incest taboos than ordinary mortals (whose ordinariness might be the result of such breeding with limited amounts of ancestors).

I don't see any scenario where Ernalda would lend her version of Charisma - the leash by which she holds her protectors - over to one of her protectors. No worshiper of Orlanth would get to use Fertility to roll for the Charisma spell in my games. YGWV.

FYI - Ernalda doesn't give that spell to any of her associated cults anyway! 

Eurmal does to Orlanth.

Yinkin to no-one as well...  

So, a moot point.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I would GM this that Charisma from Ernalda has to go through Fertility, Charisma from Yinkin has to go through Beast, and Charisma from Eurmal has to go through Illusion. The side effects would show, too - although all three of these sources bring sexual tension into the recipient of the spell.

Entirely reasonable, I don't think I would impose that but I certainly see the "logic" behind it.

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Since a Eurmali need not cast using Illusion, and could use Fertility or Beast instead, the Yinkin need not cast using Beast, etc... this seems artificially restrictive.

(Our current Eurmali PC is only ~50% in Illusion)

I actually thought it was part of the rules, but apparently not

It seems silly to me that you could actually use an opposing Rune to your deity for the casting of their Sanctify (for example). Or, somehow, using a Chaos Rune for an anti-Chaos deity's spell...

[PhilHibbs]

20 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I actually thought it was part of the rules, but apparently not

It seems silly to me that you could actually use an opposing Rune to your deity for the casting of their Sanctify (for example). Or, somehow, using a Chaos Rune for an anti-Chaos deity's spell...

Whichever way you go there will be counterintuitive consequences, and the benefit of detailing exactly which rune each cult can or cannot use for each spell would be going too far. I really don't think it's worth worrying about.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Whichever way you go there will be counterintuitive consequences, and the benefit of detailing exactly which rune each cult can or cannot use for each spell would be going too far. I really don't think it's worth worrying about.

No real need. Just a simple rule that says you can only use the Runes that the deity has access to... Ernalda Rune Spells can only be cast using Earth, Fertility, Harmony. Problem solvered!

 

Edit) also, I think this is very thematic to the setting. The Gods don't care about making things particularly easy for mortals to use their powers, and it's certainly not their responsibility.

Additionally, it doesn't make much sense to me to be able to draw upon the powers of a god using something they don't align with. Imagine invoking Fire and having salamanders around in an Orlanth worship ceremony... Just because your personal Fire Rune rating is higher.🙄

Edited December 23, 2020 by Shiningbrow

[Kloster]

On 12/20/2020 at 3:33 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

If I learn shield with Orlanth (a pow sacrifice for orlanth so +1 orlanth rune pool), AND with storm bull (another pow sacrifice for stormbull so +1 stormbuull rune pool) Could I cast and cumulate shield (full Orlanth rune pool) and shield (full Storm Bull rune pool).

I would say yes. But that means 2 separate casting, 1 for the Orlanth Shield spell with Orlanth RP, and then 1 for the Storm Bull Shield spell with Storm Bull RP. You can not in my opinion cast a 2 point Shield by using 1 RP from each pool, even if you know the spell from both cults.

[French Desperate WindChild]

29 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I would say yes. But that means 2 separate casting, 1 for the Orlanth Shield spell with Orlanth RP, and then 1 for the Storm Bull Shield spell with Storm Bull RP. You can not in my opinion cast a 2 point Shield by using 1 RP from each pool, even if you know the spell from both cults.

Yes the point is not how many spell de are cast (i agree there are two  spells) but if at the end you get a full protection and I would say yes as shield can be cumulated with its spiritual « cousins » there is no reason to not cumulate the two divine « brothers »

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Yes the point is not how many spell de are cast (i agree there are two  spells) but if at the end you get a full protection and I would say yes as shield can be cumulated with its spiritual « cousins » there is no reason to not cumulate the two divine « brothers »

In that case, I would say that if you cast, say, a Shield 2, known by Orlanth cult and powered by 2RP of the Orlanth Rune pool, and then the following round you cast a Shield 3, known through Storm Bull and powered by 3 RP taken from the SB Rune pool, yes you would gain a Shield 5. As a GM, I would accept it.

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, Kloster said:

In that case, I would say that if you cast, say, a Shield 2, known by Orlanth cult and powered by 2RP of the Orlanth Rune pool, and then the following round you cast a Shield 3, known through Storm Bull and powered by 3 RP taken from the SB Rune pool, yes you would gain a Shield 5. As a GM, I would accept it.

That's really generous of you!

 

Do you do the same with Countermagic, Protection, Bladesharp, etc?

Edited December 25, 2020 by Shiningbrow
Spelling

[Kloster]

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Do you do the same with Countermagic, Protection, Bladesharp, etc?

No, those are spirit magic, so don't stack. I would do this only for stackable rune spells known from 2 cults.

[Godlearner]

On 12/24/2020 at 1:13 PM, Kloster said:

In that case, I would say that if you cast, say, a Shield 2, known by Orlanth cult and powered by 2RP of the Orlanth Rune pool, and then the following round you cast a Shield 3, known through Storm Bull and powered by 3 RP taken from the SB Rune pool, yes you would gain a Shield 5. As a GM, I would accept it.

I would only allow this if the spell was cast at the same time, even if it was the same spell with the same RP cult. 

[soltakss]

On 12/25/2020 at 2:56 AM, Shiningbrow said:

On 12/24/2020 at 6:13 PM, Kloster said:

In that case, I would say that if you cast, say, a Shield 2, known by Orlanth cult and powered by 2RP of the Orlanth Rune pool, and then the following round you cast a Shield 3, known through Storm Bull and powered by 3 RP taken from the SB Rune pool, yes you would gain a Shield 5. As a GM, I would accept it.

That's really generous of you!

I would go further and allow Shield to be cast with 2 Rune points from Orlanth and 3 Rune points from Storm Bull to get Shield 5 in one casting.

It doesn't hurt anyone or break anything.

And I like high-powered games.

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, soltakss said:

I would go further and allow Shield to be cast with 2 Rune points from Orlanth and 3 Rune points from Storm Bull to get Shield 5 in one casting.

It doesn't hurt anyone or break anything.

And I like high-powered games.

Is that in 1 casting?

For that specific example, I'd agree. But then, I see the Shield spell Stormbull uses is powered by Orlanth anyway.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 12/25/2020 at 3:56 AM, Shiningbrow said:

That's really generous of you!

 

Do you do the same with Countermagic, Protection, Bladesharp, etc?

it is not generous :

shield and any divine magic are not limited by anything except rune pool. you don't learn shield Two, you learn shield. And you can use all your runepool for one spell( I m in the one cult situation) so you cannot use protection 1 twice to obtain a protection-2 spell like, that is the rule. But you can get shield 8 if you have enough runepool (that is the big difference with previous rules, for sure)

[soltakss]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

21 hours ago, soltakss said:

I would go further and allow Shield to be cast with 2 Rune points from Orlanth and 3 Rune points from Storm Bull to get Shield 5 in one casting.

It doesn't hurt anyone or break anything.

And I like high-powered games.

Is that in 1 casting?

Yes, one casting. 

For me, casting Shield 2 and then Shield 3 ends up with Shield 3, as it is the bigger compatible spell.

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, soltakss said:

Yes, one casting. 

For me, casting Shield 2 and then Shield 3 ends up with Shield 3, as it is the bigger compatible spell.

Yeah, that's how I'd treat it.

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

it is not generous :

shield and any divine magic are not limited by anything except rune pool. you don't learn shield Two, you learn shield. And you can use all your runepool for one spell( I m in the one cult situation) so you cannot use protection 1 twice to obtain a protection-2 spell like, that is the rule. But you can get shield 8 if you have enough runepool (that is the big difference with previous rules, for sure)

But... They're from two different Rune Point pools... 

And, as per the above posts, one on top of the other usually means only the strongest has effect.