Taking down a spell with Spirit Screen

[Godlearner]

Spirit Screen is incompatible with Countermagic, Protection, and Shimmer. It is also a ranged spell. Is it possible to use it on the enemy to take down their smaller Countermagic, Shimmer or Protection spell? Or casting it ahead of time to prevent an opponent from casting a similar level Countermagic, Shimmer or Protection?

[Lordabdul]

Haha that's brilliant   I assume it would fail if the enemy already has one of these other spells, but casting it on an unsuspecting enemy as part of the preliminary phase to an ambush deserves to go in the Munhkinery thread!

[Godlearner]

I figure a higher intensity spell takes precedence, otherwise a well timed Spirit Screen 1 would prevent a Protection 8

[Kloster]

6 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Or casting it ahead of time to prevent an opponent from casting a similar level Countermagic, Shimmer or Protection?

This is an old classic: Casting a low level spell  that is incompatible with other you know or suspect your target has. In line with casting fanaticism on an opponent (to forbid him casting protection spells), especially if he is mounted (not against Praxians, of course). The target has to dispel/dismiss your spell before casting his own spells. But beware, somebody that receives an unwanted Spirit Screen knows that an ambush has started, so this has to be the last step of ambush prep, just before or better simultaneously with the range attacks.

[French Desperate WindChild]

and for me, as the intent is clearly offensive, POW vs POW is required

[Kloster]

46 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

and for me, as the intent is clearly offensive, POW vs POW is required

As for all not voluntarily accepted spells.

[Godlearner]

5 hours ago, Kloster said:

As for all not voluntarily accepted spells.

I am fine with that, but the question now seems to be would a Spirit Screen 4 take down a Protection 3, or a casting of Spirit Screen 1 prevent the target from casting any Protection spell until it is dispelled?

[Kloster]

As we play it, if a spell is in place and an incompatible spell is cast on the same character, it fails automatically. This is the source of the trick: If you cast spirit screen on an opponent before he has time to cast his protection spell, he first has to dispel the spirit screen before being able to protect himself. He thus loose at least 1 extra MP and 1 round. Not bad for a 1MP investment.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Kloster
typing mistake

[Kloster]

12 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I am fine with that, but the question now seems to be would a Spirit Screen 4 take down a Protection 3, or a casting of Spirit Screen 1 prevent the target from casting any Protection spell until it is dispelled?

No, a Spirit Screen 4 does not take down anything, at least as we play it. Either no incompatible spell is in place and it takes effect, or an incompatible spell is in place, whether 1 or 1 gazillion point, and it automatically fails.

[Godlearner]

Thank you Kloster. We have played it the other way by letting the higher intensity spell take precedence. I think either way is fine as long as it is consistent in the game, but would like to see an "official" ruling on this. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Most GMs would allow this to happen once, then forbid it.  I really want to downvote the entire thread.

[Psullie]

I feel that this is an acceptable tactic on the battlefield. Also if you play with boosted defence you could add a bunch of MP's to it to make it harder to dispel too. It can also happen to adventurers so I wouldn't forbid it. This is why getting the drop on your opponents is so important in RQ. 

[Godlearner]

5 minutes ago, Psullie said:

I feel that this is an acceptable tactic on the battlefield. Also if you play with boosted defence you could add a bunch of MP's to it to make it harder to dispel too. It can also happen to adventurers so I wouldn't forbid it. This is why getting the drop on your opponents is so important in RQ. 

Boosting would only help to punch through Countermagic, or similar spells. Boosting a Spirit Screen 1 with 5 magic points against a Countermagic 4 will punch through, but won't do anything due to the Countermagics higher intensity. In case of Shield spell I imagine it would work something like this:

Defender has a Shield 2 and Protection 2 up on himself.

• If the attacker casts a Spirit Screen 4 or lower without boosting, it would be stopped by the Shield. 
• If the attacker casts a Spirit Screen 2 and boosts it with 3 magic points. The Spirit Screen would punch through the Shield spell, but fail to do anything against the Protection 2
• If the attacked casts a Spirit Screen 3 and boosts in with 2 magic points, it will go through Shield. The attacker would then need to make a POW vs POW roll and if successful, the defender's Protection 2 would go down and be replaced with a Spirit Screen 3, and thus preventing the defender from casting another Protection spell on himself of intensity 3 or less (unless he dispels the Spirit Screen 3 first)

 

 

[Psullie]

 

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Boosting would only help to punch through Countermagic, or similar spells. Boosting a Spirit Screen 1 with 5 magic points against a Countermagic 4 will punch through, but won't do anything due to the Countermagics higher intensity. In case of Shield spell I imagine it would work something like this:

I don't believe that incompatible spells works offensively as you suggest. Regardless of the power or strength, casting an incompatible spell on top of another will simply fail. As Spirit Magic is incompatible with both Countermagic and Protection, the attacking spell will fail.

But if you can cast Spirit Magic first, beat the POW v POW roll you will prevent your target from subsequently casting their Countermagic or Protection. They would need to Dispel the Spirt Screen. I was just saying that if you boosted the Spirit Screen with extra MP's for active defence, the victim would need to Boost their Dispel accordingly.

[Godlearner]

Quote

I was just saying that if you boosted the Spirit Screen with extra MP's for active defence, the victim would need to Boost their Dispel accordingly.

As far as I am aware it has never worked this way. I have never heard of anyone boosting a spell for defense to make it more difficult to dispel. 

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Most GMs would allow this to happen once, then forbid it.  I really want to downvote the entire thread.

Why?

3 hours ago, Psullie said:

I feel that this is an acceptable tactic on the battlefield. Also if you play with boosted defence you could add a bunch of MP's to it to make it harder to dispel too. It can also happen to adventurers so I wouldn't forbid it. This is why getting the drop on your opponents is so important in RQ. 

Of course! If PC can do it, NPC will also do it to them.

24 minutes ago, Psullie said:

I was just saying that if you boosted the Spirit Screen with extra MP's for active defence, the victim would need to Boost their Dispel accordingly.

We already had quite a few threads on this subject, and I seem to remember you can only boost offensively, not defensively.

[Psullie]

This was clarified here: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-11-magic/

scroll down to the boosting example.

though many GMs don’t allow it

[HreshtIronBorne]

I can't find the thread to quote it now but, I believe Soltakks has some good stories about using low level spirit magic to 'block' the casting of really peefy protection spells. I know in our Glorantha we have seldom used it but, it has come up once or twice. A daring assassin punching well above his power level used fanaticism and spirit screen to get lucky in a 'duel' with a Rune-Level baddy. 

 

We have played it similar to Kloster. If an incompatible spell of any size is present on the target the newly cast spells fizzles/slides eight off, however you wanna illustrate it. 

 

Also, good use of Countermagic offensively is to throw even a CM 1 up right at the start of an ambush, makes healing slower and harder. 

[Kloster]

14 minutes ago, Psullie said:

This was clarified here: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-11-magic/

scroll down to the boosting example.

though many GMs don’t allow it

I haven't noticed this Well of Daliath ruling, and I find the wording unclear, but you are right. We really need an errata that clarify much things.

And when I GM, I don't think I will allow it either.

[Kloster]

15 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Also, good use of Countermagic offensively is to throw even a CM 1 up right at the start of an ambush, makes healing slower and harder. 

Not quite. It would block your own disruption, and it is quite rare heal is only 1 point when you need it during the combat. If the fight is over, you only have to wait for 2 mn.

[Bill the barbarian]

12 hours ago, Kloster said:

This is an old classic:

Yes as were the arguments in letter columns (be ready, I predict this could get heated)... anyway everything Kloster says is cool as far as I can see. on doing this incompatibility trick,  I predict heated debate. you are casting it on a unwilling (well the DID NOT say yes...) victims so POW vs POW to start and can see 0 probs with it

 

50 minutes ago, Psullie said:

But if you can cast Spirit Magic first, beat the POW v POW roll you will prevent your target from subsequently casting their Countermagic or Protection. They would need to Dispel the Spirt Screen. I was just saying that if you boosted the Spirit Screen with extra MP's for active defence, the victim would need to Boost their Dispel accordingly.

Agreed

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Psullie said:

They would need to Dispel the Spirt Screen

Check the cults that even teach Dispel (in RQG).  It's an interesting and extremely short list.

Fanaticism is an interesting attack spell, several of my characters and monsters have used it effectively.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Bill the barbarian]

15 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I haven't noticed this Well of Daliath ruling, and I find the wording unclear, but you are right. We really need an errata that clarify much things.

 

I truly detest this ruling, if I cast a boosted enough disrupt it does not bring down the spell of protection it penetrates it . Boosting a defensive speed is not comparable... but this is another thread

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Kloster]

27 minutes ago, Psullie said:

This was clarified here: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-11-magic/

scroll down to the boosting example.

though many GMs don’t allow it

This ruling in 'Well of Daliath' is horribly written: To the question about boosting a spell to making it harder do dispel, the answer is that 'it is always possible to boost a spell' referring to p248. But nowhere p248 can you find anything about boosting to defend, only to pierce magical defense. Follows an example, and a reference to p278, which has nothing concerning the subject.

I think, if this is the wanted ruling, to have clearly written in the rules that you can always boost a spell, and that the boosting MP count both to pierce magical protection AND to resist dispel/dismiss.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Kloster said:

34 minutes ago, Psullie said:

though many GMs don’t allow it

 

One of the very few home rules I will be introducing, I play RAW for the most part...Presenting to the table to vote on this week.