Carmanians

[Kloster]

A player of my old group remembered that part of the lunar settlers in Zola Fel valley were Carmanians (River of Craddles p26), and wants his new character to be of this stock. As we currently have no infos about creating Carmanian (or other Lunar origin) characters, I proposed to use the Tarsh Lunar tables, replacing Tarshite language by Carmanian language. For personal history, Prax homeland will of course be used in that case. Do you have other ideas on what can (or should) be done?

Another question: While remembering my old character (a Carmanian officer whose family ended on the loosing side of a dart war and had been 'promoted' to a commanding post in Corflu as a result), I wondered what sorcery tradition would be to be used: Lunar (because being part of the empire) or Malkioni (because of the cultural heritage of the Carmanians), or a mix of both. What are your ideas on that?

[French Desperate WindChild]

I will not help you unfortunately...

but I m pretty sure there are more differences between carmanian and lunarized tarsh than between praxian and esrolian. Same for the magic / cult so ... maybe the son/daughter of a carmanian who lived in dragon pass following the lunar army could help : some carmanian origin (language, customs) but a lunarized cover (cultural skills and weapons)

I would like to see a "true" carmanian creation but the cultural backgroud seems to me very hazardous (the western part is not yet described and the local cults are so weird, I never understood cleary what it was ^^ )

[Kloster]

27 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I will not help you unfortunately...

but I m pretty sure there are more differences between carmanian and lunarized tarsh than between praxian and esrolian. Same for the magic / cult so ... maybe the son/daughter of a carmanian who lived in dragon pass following the lunar army could help : some carmanian origin (language, customs) but a lunarized cover (cultural skills and weapons)

I would like to see a "true" carmanian creation but the cultural backgroud seems to me very hazardous (the western part is not yet described and the local cults are so weird, I never understood cleary what it was ^^ )

I (in fact my player, that wants to play a Lunar in Prax) am not interested for the time being in playing an orthodox Heartland Lunar or Carmanian. What he wants is having a story for playing a lunar in Prax post Dragonrise, and remembered those settlers. The character would thus have been raised in Prax (for the personal history), but I don't think the Praxian cultural packages are OK. This is why I proposed using the Lunar Tarsh one, with slight modifications.

For the sorcery question, this is (currently) less important, as it is only sheer curiosity on how I would create my old character with RQG ruleset, but is not a request of my player for his character.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Kloster
typing mistake

[jajagappa]

Just now, Kloster said:

What he wants is having a story for playing a lunar in Prax post Dragonrise, and remembered those settlers. The character would thus have been raised in Prax (for the personal history), but I don't think the Praxian cultural packages are OK. This is why I proposed using the Lunar Tarsh one, with slight modifications.

The Lunar Tarsh package should work reasonably well for Carmanians as both are more urban/city-dominated cultures and both are under the Red Moon.

 

[Kloster]

20 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Lunar Tarsh package should work reasonably well for Carmanians as both are more urban/city-dominated cultures and both are under the Red Moon.

 

That's what I thought. Thanks.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Check out @Nick Brooke old "Carmanian Sources" for some great ideas.  We ran mainly Carmanian Lunars for about 10 years, lots of fun.

http://etyries.albionsoft.com/etyries.com/carmania/index.html

 

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Check out @Nick Brooke old "Carmanian Sources" for some great ideas.  We ran mainly Carmanian Lunars for about 10 years, lots of fun.

http://etyries.albionsoft.com/etyries.com/carmania/index.html

 

I've already read it (when I played my Carmanian). Great work.

[Nick Brooke]

While I'm the last person you want to ask about sorcery rules, my strong suggestion would be that the only Carmanians who'd use sorcery are the Viziers and Magi, and they are best kept as NPCs. Sorcery is not practical magic for most player characters: it's only learned by highly-educated specialists, who are generally too valuable to send "adventuring."

All other Carmanians -- the warrior Hazars and the noble Karmanoi (inc. Sirdars, Satraps, etc.) - would use a mix of ancestral Spirit magic and Rune magic from permitted cults. (NB: the function of the Magi is to tell them which cults are permitted)

(NB: Carmanians are unlike other Malkioni-derived societies because their "fourth caste," the workers and peasants, is basically the native Pelorians they conquered)

This old piece still holds up well, IMO: The Cults of Carmania.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

While I'm the last person you want to ask about sorcery rules, my strong suggestion would be that the only Carmanians who'd use sorcery are the Viziers and Magi, and they are best kept as NPCs. Sorcery is not practical magic for most player characters: it's only learned by highly-educated specialists, who are generally too valuable to send "adventuring."

All other Carmanians -- the warrior Hazars and the noble Karmanoi (inc. Sirdars, Satraps, etc.) - would use a mix of ancestral Spirit magic and Rune magic from permitted cults. (NB: the function of the Magi is to tell them which cults are permitted)

(NB: Carmanians are unlike other Malkioni-derived societies because their "fourth caste," the workers and peasants, is basically the native Pelorians they conquered)

This old piece still holds up well, IMO: The Cults of Carmania.

All very true. One gloss - in many Western societies, the Dronars and even the Horali are often thinly disguised conquered people who "Malkionized" many of their customs. You see this with the Seshnelan Martial Beasts, etc. Carmanos set up an empire that managed to combine Malkioni, Humakti, Storm Bull cultists, Spolites, and Dara Happans into a powerful war machine. It hit its cultural height in the late Second Age, and in the Third Age it conquered most of Peloria, but was senselessly brutal, gratuitously cruel, and plainly unjust. Raban the Beast would have made a perfectly normal later Carmanian satrap.

[Nick Brooke]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

All very true. One gloss - in many Western societies, the Dronars and even the Horali are often thinly disguised conquered people who "Malkionized" many of their customs. You see this with the Seshnelan Martial Beasts, etc. Carmanos set up an empire that managed to combine Malkioni, Humakti, Storm Bull cultists, Spolites, and Dara Happans into a powerful war machine. It hit its cultural height in the late Second Age, and in the Third Age it conquered most of Peloria, but was senselessly brutal, gratuitously cruel, and plainly unjust. Raban the Beast would have made a perfectly normal later Carmanian satrap.

Yup, absolutely. Even the Malkioni who walked / sailed etc. from Brithos to Seshneg in the Great Darkness "converted" the natives they ran across to become their Dronars. Brithos may have had 'indigenous' Dronari, but on this point it seems to me that the scriptures are entirely untrustworthy.

[Nick Brooke]

Ironically, for a nation defined by their rejection of God Learnerism, the Carmanians had an apex religious caste who dedicated their lives to rules-lawyering the cosmos, finding 'exploits' their rulers could use to make the worship of pagan deities permissible.

[Jeff]

Just now, Nick Brooke said:

Ironically, for a nation defined by their rejection of God Learnerism, the Carmanians had an apex religious caste who dedicated their lives to rules-lawyering the cosmos, finding 'exploits' their rulers could use to make the worship of pagan deities permissible.

Like everyone, it is always other people's God Learnerism they object to, not their own.

[David Scott]

21 hours ago, Kloster said:

part of the lunar settlers in Zola Fel valley were Carmanians

There is also a page in Pavis GtA, called Lunar settlers in New Pavis, page 15. It covers enough outline; language, cults (Bisos & Turos for Carmanians) , occupations and names to make RQG adventurers even though it's for HeroQuest.

[Kloster]

25 minutes ago, David Scott said:

There is also a page in Pavis GtA, called Lunar settlers in New Pavis, page 15. It covers enough outline; language, cults (Bisos & Turos for Carmanians) , occupations and names to make RQG adventurers even though it's for HeroQuest.

Thanks David. But I don't have anything from HW/HQ era, except for 'Deluxe Herowars'. This is why we reverted to 'River of Craddles' and 'Genertela'.

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

All very true. One gloss - in many Western societies, the Dronars and even the Horali are often thinly disguised conquered people who "Malkionized" many of their customs. You see this with the Seshnelan Martial Beasts, etc. Carmanos set up an empire that managed to combine Malkioni, Humakti, Storm Bull cultists, Spolites, and Dara Happans into a powerful war machine. It hit its cultural height in the late Second Age, and in the Third Age it conquered most of Peloria, but was senselessly brutal, gratuitously cruel, and plainly unjust. Raban the Beast would have made a perfectly normal later Carmanian satrap.

Thanks Jeff. I conclude from what you and Nick are saying that a Carmanian sorceror would have to be built on Malkioni rules more than on Lunar sorcery rules.

[Nick Brooke]

7 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Thanks Jeff. I conclude from what you and Nick are saying that a Carmanian sorceror would have to be built on Malkioni rules more than on Lunar sorcery rules.

Pedant mode engaged: there is nothing stopping a talented Citizen Foreigner from enrolling in the Lunar College of Magic. But the native Carmanian sorcerous tradition is very old-school Malkioni (pre-God Learner, in fact).

Once again, I strongly advise against having sorcery-using player characters in a RQG game. They won't have fun, and nor will you.

[Kloster]

48 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Pedant mode engaged: there is nothing stopping a talented Citizen Foreigner from enrolling in the Lunar College of Magic. But the native Carmanian sorcerous tradition is very old-school Malkioni (pre-God Learner, in fact).

Thanks Nick. This is the perfect answer to the question I have asked.

48 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Once again, I strongly advise against having sorcery-using player characters in a RQG game.

I hear your warning (not related to this case because I have clearly explained I just want to recreate my old character with the new rules, not play it).

50 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

They won't have fun, and nor will you.

I have already done it and I had much fun.

[Tindalos]

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Once again, I strongly advise against having sorcery-using player characters in a RQG game. They won't have fun, and nor will you.

Of course, until fuller sorcery rules are done, or ones suitable to taste come out, it could be possible to make a "cult of Idovanus" for the Magi, that teach rune spells that simulate suitable sorcerous effects, in a similar way to the Flintnail's cult's rune magic. 

[Nick Brooke]

2 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Of course, until fuller sorcery rules are done, or ones suitable to taste come out, it could be possible to make a "cult of Idovanus" for the Magi, that teach rune spells that simulate suitable sorcerous effects, in a similar way to the Flintnail's cult's rune magic. 

YGMV, but I've always seen Carmanian Magi as incredibly rare. They're essentially a hereditary noble caste of High Priests of the Carmanian religion, who seldom set foot outside the precincts of the Hierophant's holy city of Brinnus for fear of becoming ritually impure. Writing up a sorcery system just for their use feels like overkill. (But what do I know?)

The more interesting sorcerers IMO are the amoral, legalistic Carmanian Viziers. But as their caste name strongly implies, they're really intended for use as NPC adversaries. 😉

[Eff]

Just now, Nick Brooke said:

YGMV, but I've always seen Carmanian Magi as incredibly rare. They're essentially a hereditary noble caste of High Priests of the Carmanian religion, who seldom set foot outside the precincts of the Hierophant's holy city of Brinnus for fear of becoming ritually impure. Writing up a sorcery system just for their use feels like overkill. (But what do I know?)

The more interesting sorcerers IMO are the amoral, legalistic Carmanian Viziers. But as their caste name strongly implies, they're really intended for use as NPC adversaries. 😉

Cackle                           Dark, Command
3 Points
Ranged, Active, Temporal
This spell manifests as laughter, full-throated and powerful, audible within the precincts of any building the Vizier is standing in, or for 100 meters. For every 3 points invested in the spell, the quality of the laughter upgrades one step, from "maniacal" to "fiendish" to "diabolical", etc., and the reach extends for another 100 meters (if standing in a building, a 6 point spell would be audible for 100 meters outside the building.) 

[Nick Brooke]

(This spell is a necessary prerequisite for some of the more dubious activities entered into by Carmanian Viziers)

[Kloster]

 

11 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Pedant mode engaged: there is nothing stopping a talented Citizen Foreigner from enrolling in the Lunar College of Magic. But the native Carmanian sorcerous tradition is very old-school Malkioni (pre-God Learner, in fact).

 

7 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

YGMV, but I've always seen Carmanian Magi as incredibly rare. They're essentially a hereditary noble caste of High Priests of the Carmanian religion, who seldom set foot outside the precincts of the Hierophant's holy city of Brinnus for fear of becoming ritually impure. Writing up a sorcery system just for their use feels like overkill. (But what do I know?)

The more interesting sorcerers IMO are the amoral, legalistic Carmanian Viziers. But as their caste name strongly implies, they're really intended for use as NPC adversaries.

Now that I have time to think about it, that means that if I wanted to recreate my character, it would be better to use the lunar school of sorcery: He was a lunar officer, after all, not a vizier, nor a magi. I still wonder how to convert some spells, as his most used spell was 'change water to whisky' (in fact, change water to cognac, as I am french and my old GM didn't drank whisky).

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

 I still wonder how to convert some spells, as his most used spell was 'change water to whisky' (in fact, change water to cognac, as I am french and my old GM didn't drank whisky).

Well, Create Taste would make sense as a basis. Temporarily creating a reality where the water is in fact cognac. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Tindalos

[Kloster]

9 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Well, Create Taste would make sense as a basis. Temporarily creating a reality where the water is in fact cognac. 

Thanks for the idea. Not quite because with transform 'Substance' to 'Substance', the resultant substance is real, and said cognac has helped us greet people in our wilderness camp, buy information and 'distract' guards, among others. Not only does it tasted like cognac, but it was the right stuff, with all the side effects (happiness, drunkenness,...).

[Joerg]

On 12/23/2020 at 9:32 AM, Nick Brooke said:

Yup, absolutely. Even the Malkioni who walked / sailed etc. from Brithos to Seshneg in the Great Darkness "converted" the natives they ran across to become their Dronars. Brithos may have had 'indigenous' Dronari, but on this point it seems to me that the scriptures are entirely untrustworthy.

Even Brithini scripture (that of the "Malkion son of Aerlit and Warera" type) assigns a different mother to Dronar than to the other sons of Malkion. Still, these original stock dark-skinned Dronari should be the main worker class population in Brithos and Arolanit, and the two crafters in Akem should be of their type, too.

Unlike the Vadeli, none of the Brithini castes other than Zzabur and possibly Menena should have any sorcery (or other magic), and in orthodox Hrestolism the men-of-all should have at least basics of sorcery.

The question remains whether there are more stand-alone sorcery spells like the common version of Open Seas available to people from any orthodox caste. Personally, I would expect some craft magic along those lines - knowledge of sorcery, but no deeper understanding.

 

[Kloster]

On 12/23/2020 at 9:34 AM, Nick Brooke said:

Ironically, for a nation defined by their rejection of God Learnerism, the Carmanians had an apex religious caste who dedicated their lives to rules-lawyering the cosmos, finding 'exploits' their rulers could use to make the worship of pagan deities permissible.

This is part of what makes them interesting. The mix of Lunar, Orlanthi and Malkioni culture is also interesting (for me).