What would Grazelander communities look like

[Mossmac]

Grazelanders are a culture I am only starting to familiarise myself with.

 

Any great resources out their detailing their daily community life?
 

One idea was they lived in Yurt like tents (Mongolian round tents)

 

Any views would be helpful.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Mossmac

[soltakss]

Don't forget that Grazelanders are two people joined together, Grazers and Vendref, or ground people.

The Grazers are the descendants of Pentian nomads and are effectively steppe horse nomads, but without the steppes.

Vendrefi are slaves, bound to the earth and servants of the Feathered Horse Queen.

I remember reading a description of how the Grazers don't farm, so exact their tribute by hunting the farm animals, so their hunting party sweeps in and hunts the captured farm animals that the Vendrefi helpfully take out and let loose when the Grazers come. so, they shoot domestic pigs, cattle and sheep, catch fowl and so on. Then they ride away with their hunted spoils and everyone is happy.

For me, Grazers live in yurt villages. Have a look at the excellent Resurrection Ertugrul TV series on Netflix to see examples of such villages and how they work. grazers prepare hides, weave cloth and make carpets. They don't keep herds of sheep but take wool from the Vendrefi and use them to make carpets, rugs and clothing.

Vendrefi live in normal farming houses, maybe Orlanthi-type steads, maybe turf buildings or round houses. Theirs are typical farming communties, but they don;t have a militia or warriors, as they are protected by Grazers.

 

 

[Eff]

I don't think there's much that goes in-depth on Grazelander communities or day-to-day living. But there are some important historical and in-universe parallels. 

So, to begin with, the Grazelands Pony Breeders proper are Pure Horse People, who live entirely off of their horses for ceremonial reasons. This is something that is unprecedented historically as a model for a society proper. But it's important to remember that the Pure Horse People are not and have never been, in Time, a society on their own. They have always been a group of people within a broader Pentan, Praxian, or Dragon Pass social context, and in the last case, they rule over the unfree vendref as a noble or free caste. And there is a historical parallel there, in that "steppe peoples" tend to have an economy dominated by sheep herding and reliant on sheep's wool and sheep's milk and sheep cheese and so on to survive, and that in practice many steppe peoples appear to have followed the basic model of the Mongols, who sent out the combatants on long raids and hunts with only horses, and the noncombatants remained at home with the yurts, the sheep, and the basic apparatus of economic life. For most historical RW ones, this has been a differentiation primarily by gender and by age- it's mostly young and middle-aged men who are the combatants, and the remainder are the noncombatants. 

All this is to say that, given that there are no formal settlements on the map beyond the tiny posts that very specifically only cater to merchants and serve as rest homes for elderly Grazelanders, I believe that that basic dynamic is dominant in the Grazelands and vendref and Pony Breeders live in close proximity except when the Grazelanders are raiding or hunting, and the vendref are primarily occupied with herding sheep. However, what the Guide says is that vendref grow grain, so perhaps the model that is intended is the relationship of the Lakota to the Mandan, Arikara, and Hidatsa people in the late 18th and early 19th century (though less facially hostile), where you have people in river valley villages growing grain and the horse peoples who dominate them through force. I have to admit that I'm not sure this model works without an equivalent of the bison herds for hunting. Perhaps a hybrid of the models is meant instead. 

But in either case, Grazelanders would probably have yurts or gers, with perhaps wigwam-like dwellings for very temporary camps. A significant amount of their diet would be based on dairy. If we take Pure Horse People dietary restrictions literally, the Grazelanders would be forced to subsist entirely on horse meat and horse milk products. I don't, so I would assume they're at least eating something besides a Gloranthan Atkins/ketosis diet, even if they're ritually forbidden to eat any meat other than horse (still bizarre given the historical importance of hunting to most nomadic peoples and the rather difficult prospect of breeding horses as a primary meat source). 

Grazelanders form a single tribe divided into a dozen clans. There are 40,000 people in the Grazelands, and the vendref are the majority, according to the Guide. If we assume that Grazelander clans are roughly the same size as Orlanthi ones, then there are between 10,000 and 15,000 Grazelanders and 30-25,000 vendref. However, the Grazelanders form a military and priestly elite in the overall society, so these numbers certainly seem rather large. I can't find the thread with the table of examples of how different social classes break down across cultures in or near Dragon Pass at the moment, so I can't suggest any alternatives concretely. Perhaps assuming Grazelanders are towards the edge of nonviability as individual clans, with 5-700 people per clan and a total of 6-8500 Pony Breeders as compared to 31500-34000 vendref, and Pure Horse People and vendref sometimes have children with each other with status based on? (Probably mother's status given the dominance of the Earth in the Grazelands, but that seems like a massive change for even the Feathered Horse Queen to implement.) It seems entirely likely to me that PHP clans are more intermingled than Sartarite clans, and that most camps of Pure Horse People contain people from multiple clans, if not all twelve. 

As far as finer details of Pure Horse People society... I don't really want to speculate without seeing how Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha handles Fire cults generally. It's possible to take it as effectively patriarchal with a thin veneer of FHQ on top, it's possible to take it as more gender-balanced with social stratification displaced more onto PHP/vendref status, it's possible to go lots of directions and we have a fairly thin set of data. We know that the Feathered Horse Queens are war leaders and lead from the front, but she's by definition an exceptional person. And gender roles are pretty important for having an idea of who's doing what in a PHP camp. 

[Joerg]

IMO pretending to hunt domestic animals would be a travesty to Grazer / Pure Horse customs. Raiding settled folk and taking their stuff by force is acceptable.

There is a taboo to herd anything but horses, to milk anything but horses. There is no taboo to hunt other beasts - antelopes, deer, bison or wild boar all are fair game and a welcome part of the diet.

The Grazers have gone at some lengths pretending not to be the descendants of the Pure Horse Folk of Second and early Third Age Prax. They were the first humans to re-enter Dragon Pass after the Dragonkill,

They were a desperate bunch of survivors, a fraction of their former numbers, and a fraction of their former herds. This seems to be a pattern in horse nomad history - possibly harkening back to what they experienced in post-Flood Dara Happa in the Storm Age, definitely what they were facing after the Battle of Alavan Argay which removed them from their overlordship over Dara Happa, and what they faced whenever they had succeeded to repeat that conquest for a while. Every single time almost the entirety of their military age male population was wiped out, and without protection a lot of the rest of the population was killed or enslaved, too. Their herds were diminished in a similar way. And still, often less than a century later, they would return in great numbers and do what they did before, or at least attempt to do that.

When they entered Dragon Pass, they underwent ritual adoption by the immortal Centaur king Ironhoof, and they accepted a Centaur undergoing a magical separation into horse and rider as their new king, if the Pain Centaur story in King of Sartar is put into some perspective. A mythically true action, undergone by a martyr hero for the newcomers to the land, a feat of transformation in the heritage of Joraz Kyrem of Pavis and foreshadowing the actions of the hero Sartar.

Their original range was all of Dragon Pass. The trolls had lost their ambition along with a majority of their fighting forces at the desastrous action at the Smoking ruins, after they had culled the Tusk Rider influence in the Pass region. The Beast Folk of Wild Temple coalesced into Beast Valley - not exactly giving up on the rest of the Pass area, but making themselves a lot rarer outside of that land. (Still, when Arim the Pauper entered from the Sairdite lowlands, there was a centaur roaming near the northern end of the taboo zone of Dragon Pass, and Beast Folk are likely to wander into human farmland to this day on occasion.)

Yurts, horse herds, and hunting wild animals for additional meat was how the Grazers spent the first 80 years of their presence in Dragon Pass. There may have been feral domestic cattle in the region, or possibly there were domestic cattle herds under centaur or minotaur herdsmanship.

I am not entirely clear about whether domestic beasts raided from neighbors - be they sedentary Orlanthi farmers or Praxian beast nomads - would be acceptable sources of meat for the Grazers. Driving them back to the camps for slaughter might be stretching their Pure Horse ethos, but butchering them within sight of their owners seems to be a good way to lose your raiding bands to punitive counter-raids. Killing those herd beasts without taking any meat or hide would be a statement similar to Praxians letting horse carcasses rot without touching any of that, but I fail to see how their earth mother goddess would approve of such behavior.

Agriculture and even nomadic gardening are taboo to the Grazers. Harvesting wild (or rather feral) grains in a gatherer mode is acceptable practice, though, while being a low status endeavor. Getting serfs to do that for the horse-riding nobility is a lot more acceptable, and of the first Orlanthi immigrants to post-Dragonkill Dragon Pass many ended up as walker slaves following the yurt camps of their horse-riding overlords rather than doing any sedentary farming. (I think that they would have taken up nomadic gardening, preparing a harvest for a return later in the nomadic cycle, after learning about the rhythms of those wanderings decided by the alpha stallions or mares of the horse herds.)

I don't think that the Grazers have ever given up on having walker slaves accompanying the yurt camps. They may recruit these from captives from campaigns or raids to non-Vendref lands rather than taking them from their serf population, though. This is similar to the Praxian Beast Nomads never depopulating the Oasis Folk at their oases. They may take occasional individuals, but they make sure the "herd" of gardeners can regenerate between their visits (and I suspect that most Oasis Folk children have Beast Nomad fathers). The Vendref fare better than that, thanks to their protection by the Feathered Horse Queen. Camp slaves don't have those privileges, though. And I don't see the horse rider nobility accepting children from walker slaves into their ranks. They might set them up as Vendref, but that feels a bit unlikely, too.

Vendref plow, which means that they are allowed to breed draft beasts. In case of oxen, they need to be allowed to keep at least twice the number of oxen they use for their grain farming in cows for breeding new bull calfs designated as oxen, and a few for breeding. These are more cattle than you can keep around your village all through the year, so even Vendref have some transhumant herding in the higher pastures - probably pastures less suited for the horse herds, although when I look at documentaries about mustangs in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains, there is no great difference between those pastures and the Alpine high pastures of Bavaria used predominantly for cattle.

The Vendref are taxed grain (for the horse herds) and probably some hay, too, so they will have to provide farming effort for herds they don't profit from. That puts a strong limit on how much they can prosper from growing grain, which they are still forced to do. The way to prosperity among Vendref is through crafts and trading.

Unlike the Mongols, the Grazers don't appear to have a smith caste among their riders. Vendref do repairs and production of everyday metal items, while more elaborate items may be imported from urban crafters in the surrounding Orlanthi lands. Places like New Crystal City in the Esrolian North March may have entire streets devoted to providing Grazer art on everyday metal appliances, imported by thrifty Vendref traders, possibly on the backs of donkeys. No idea whether Grazers approve of mules - they might be less opinionated about jennies. Stallions do what stallions do, after all.

IMO Grazer society is a lot less warlike than the Dothraki in Game of Thrones. Their cavalry is still feared for its speed and control over their steeds, and extended Grazer raids are probably as damaging to the lands of sedentary farmers as are Dothraki visits.

Not sure about sabres or long-hafted blades for the Grazers. RQG gives them broadswords as cultural weapons, alongside the expected lance and bow for sun worshipers. No tomahawks, as far as I can see.

IMO there is a big sense of entitlement among the horse rider nobility. Lording over non-riders is the natural way of the world. Learning the difference between grazing areas and grain fields probably was a long process. The Vendref may have to prepare some grain fields not for harvest but for pasture, not having to harvest those fields (but having to provide the seed for next year's green cereal pasture).

I don't expect Grazer cuisine to have much in the way of grains - those go to the horse herds, and come into the diet as horse meat. Horse meat is a staple of the diet, possibly with special breeds not for riding but for meat, hides and possibly milk only. Herbs, edible roots and leeks possibly make it into Grazer diet, collected or even cultivated by walker slaves.

There are crafts that are reserved for riders. Bowyers and fletchers, working horse hides, butchering horses. Possibly some weaving on portable frames or using plates, creating clan-specific patterns. Possibly making pens and brushes out of horse hair.

[Mossmac]

Thanks for the feedback. All very helpfu😀

[coffeemancer]

might be wrong here, but I believe that they dont wear tattoos, on account of being a Solar people.

 

Also, one of the cland in "Six ages: ride like the wind" is a pure horse clan

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

might be wrong here, but I believe that they dont wear tattoos, on account of being a Solar people.

Just because the urban Dara Happans have other forms of conveying initiatory status doesn't mean that the horse nomads don't use tattoos. The Berennethtelli tribe of the Heortlings and before that the Vingkotlings who are of Hyaloring descent definitely used tattoos in Harmast's time. The Orgorvaltes - another Vingkotling/Heortling tribe whose founder was a horse rider - or at least their descendants use tattoos, too. While that may be cultural contamination by the Orlanthi they married, let me point out that the master layout for the Orlanthi clan and tribal tattoos copies designs found on ice mummies in Kurgans, i.e. from horse nomads. Remaining with real world examples from Europe, while the chalcolithic Ötztal ice mummy shows tattoos, too, those are of a different style and perhaps "medicinal" in nature (apparently on acupuncture horizons).

Beat-Pot Aelwrin is usually depicted without tattoos, but he was enslaved while under-age, so he would not have received any tattoos yet - those would likely be gained in a coming-of-age rite if his tribal culture has tattoos.

The illustration of Sartar (identifiable by his personal rune on the back of his hand) and the first Feathered Horse Queen on p.8 of the GM Screen Pack Adventure Book shows the FHQ wearing a Mastery rune on her cheek and wrist.

The horse-master of Apple Lane around 1625, Hendroste, wears a set of tattoos similar to those of the Heortlings, though no facial tat (a Harmony rune on the throat, though - p.67).

The Grazer encounter illustration on p.70 in The Smoking Ruin might have facial tattoos for the male on the left. Both his companions appear to be unmarked, at least on the skin they are showing.

The verdict on tattooing among the horse nomads remains undecided in the available art.

[Tindalos]

49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The verdict on tattooing among the horse nomads remains undecided in the available art.

While the art may be undecided, the text on page 114 of RQG does say "Adults are marked with tattoos of their gods, clan, warrior society, personal Runes, and other magical symbols."

[coffeemancer]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Just because the urban Dara Happans have other forms of conveying initiatory status doesn't mean that the horse nomads don't use tattoos. The Berennethtelli tribe of the Heortlings and before that the Vingkotlings who are of Hyaloring descent definitely used tattoos in Harmast's time. The Orgorvaltes - another Vingkotling/Heortling tribe whose founder was a horse rider - or at least their descendants use tattoos, too. While that may be cultural contamination by the Orlanthi they married, let me point out that the master layout for the Orlanthi clan and tribal tattoos copies designs found on ice mummies in Kurgans, i.e. from horse nomads. Remaining with real world examples from Europe, while the chalcolithic Ötztal ice mummy shows tattoos, too, those are of a different style and perhaps "medicinal" in nature (apparently on acupuncture horizons).

Beat-Pot Aelwrin is usually depicted without tattoos, but he was enslaved while under-age, so he would not have received any tattoos yet - those would likely be gained in a coming-of-age rite if his tribal culture has tattoos.

The illustration of Sartar (identifiable by his personal rune on the back of his hand) and the first Feathered Horse Queen on p.8 of the GM Screen Pack Adventure Book shows the FHQ wearing a Mastery rune on her cheek and wrist.

The horse-master of Apple Lane around 1625, Hendroste, wears a set of tattoos similar to those of the Heortlings, though no facial tat (a Harmony rune on the throat, though - p.67).

The Grazer encounter illustration on p.70 in The Smoking Ruin might have facial tattoos for the male on the left. Both his companions appear to be unmarked, at least on the skin they are showing.

The verdict on tattooing among the horse nomads remains undecided in the available art.

hendroste also worship orlanth

[Shiningbrow]

23 hours ago, Joerg said:

and the first Feathered Horse Queen on p.8 of the GM Screen Pack Adventure Book shows the FHQ wearing a Mastery rune on her cheek and wrist.

And her foot has a few Runes tattooed as well! Earth, Mastery, Harmony, and something covered around the ankle.

[alakoring]

On 12/27/2020 at 11:08 PM, coffeemancer said:

one of the cland in "Six ages: ride like the wind" is a pure horse clan

Given the millennia between them, I wouldn’t expect them to be very close to the Grazers. They’re related, but not necessarily directly.

[Kloster]

I haven't seem the movie, but if it is half as good as Joseph Kessel's book, 'The Horsemen', by John Frankenheimer could describe a grazelander community. It is about Azaras, in Afghanistan, but they are the grand-grand ... grand sons of Genghis Khan's Golden horde, and it shows.

[Runeblogger]

What do you think of the differences between the Grazers' great spirits in HeroQuest Voices and the ones described in RQG?

The Grazers part of HeroQuest Voices (written by David Dunham) mentions Dastal the Hunter as the one who first allied with Arandayla, with no mention to Hyalor, while RQG mentions Hyalor the Rider as a Grazer deity, just as in Six Ages Ride Like the Wind. 

HeroQuest Voices mentions Golden Bow as a sort of group of expert archers, while RQG claims it is the Grazer's shaman subcult of Yu-Kargzant.

RQG also mentions Yelmalio as an associate god of Yu-Kargzant. But do Grazers worship Yelmalio (under a different name)?

Is La-Ungariant how they call Maran Gor or Ernalda, or both?

Would you model the cult of Folorene on the cult of Eurmal?

What cult would a Grazer woman follow if she decides against all odds to become a warrior?  🤔

[Shiningbrow]

On 1/20/2021 at 5:03 AM, Kloster said:

I haven't seem the movie, but if it is half as good as Joseph Kessel's book, 'The Horsemen', by John Frankenheimer could describe a grazelander community. It is about Azaras, in Afghanistan, but they are the grand-grand ... grand sons of Genghis Khan's Golden horde, and it shows.

What year was that made?

The only "The Horsemen" that I am finding is about a detective.. blah blah.. murdered wife... blah blah....

[Tindalos]

12 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

What do you think of the differences between the Grazers' great spirits in HeroQuest Voices and the ones described in RQG?

The Grazers part of HeroQuest Voices (written by David Dunham) mentions Dastal the Hunter as the one who first allied with Arandayla, with no mention to Hyalor, while RQG mentions Hyalor the Rider as a Grazer deity, just as in Six Ages Ride Like the Wind. 

HeroQuest Voices mentions Golden Bow as a sort of group of expert archers, while RQG claims it is the Grazer's shaman subcult of Yu-Kargzant.

RQG also mentions Yelmalio as an associate god of Yu-Kargzant. But do Grazers worship Yelmalio (under a different name)?

Is La-Ungariant how they call Maran Gor or Ernalda, or both?

Would you model the cult of Folorene on the cult of Eurmal?

What cult would a Grazer woman follow if she decides against all odds to become a warrior?  🤔

Many of those are also found in King of Sartar, which helps.

A lot of those names are associated with stages of Yelm's cult progression in RQG.

Dastal the Hunter = the Youth. It's noted in WF#11's description of Yelm that the nomads call this stage Hunter.

Jardan the Warrior = the Archer.

Henird the Leader = Sun Lord. Patron of War Leaders, Chiefs, and Kings, it's easy to see Henird as the Sun Lord role.

Josad the Elder = the Elder.

RQG also has La-Ungariant as a name for Ernalda, or Dendara. (Page 116)

 

If you want to incorporate those other spirits mentioned in the Voices, I'd say:

Jardan can also be worshipped as Yelmalio/Kargzant. As Voices notes, he rides across the sky at night keeping a lonely patrol, associating him with the Lightfore. This would also explain Voice's and KoS's Golden Bows as separate to shamans, they're the ones who worship Jardan enough to separate themselves into the cult of Yelmalio rather than Yelm.

Folorene, as the patron of Wanderlore and thus movement, and given her rune is an air rune with the sun's rays; I would represent them in RQG as a worshipper of Vinga. (Orlanth is noted as a cult worshipped in the Grazelands. Although probably referring to the Vendref, he's not mentioned as one of the cults worshipped by them on page 116). Naturally that would make a logical cult for Grazer warrior-women as well, as well as other outcasts who question the heavily traditional nature of Grazer society.

[Shiningbrow]

27 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

If you want to incorporate those other spirits mentioned in the Voices, I'd say:

Jardan can also be worshipped as Yelmalio/Kargzant. As Voices notes, he rides across the sky at night keeping a lonely patrol, associating him with the Lightfore. This would also explain Voice's and KoS's Golden Bows as separate to shamans, they're the ones who worship Jardan enough to separate themselves into the cult of Yelmalio rather than Yelm.

Folorene, as the patron of Wanderlore and thus movement, and given her rune is an air rune with the sun's rays; I would represent them in RQG as a worshipper of Vinga. (Orlanth is noted as a cult worshipped in the Grazelands. Although probably referring to the Vendref, he's not mentioned as one of the cults worshipped by them on page 116). Naturally that would make a logical cult for Grazer warrior-women as well, as well as other outcasts who question the heavily traditional nature of Grazer society.

There's mention in Voices of the Grazers going to the Sun Domes (although, possibly just as a special one-off event).

Barntar is often seen as an aspect of Orlanth.

Folorene may not have a Storm Tribe counterpart - or at least one not yet made into a full write-up. There is sooooo much of Glorantha that a) hasn't been written about, and b)  doesn't have a simple 1 to 1 counterpart in/within Dragon Pass - or, for that matter, any type of counterpart at all!

[Runeblogger]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Dastal the Hunter = the Youth. It's noted in WF#11's description of Yelm that the nomads call this stage Hunter.

Would you equate him to Hyalor or would you change the text on the HeroQuest Voices so as to make him (Hyalor) who convinced Arandayla to ally with his people. And then, how would you model the cult of Hyalor? Perhaps he would be the ancestor cult, and only provide some special spirit magic related to horses and riding?

[Tindalos]

42 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

Would you equate him to Hyalor or would you change the text on the HeroQuest Voices so as to make him (Hyalor) who convinced Arandayla to ally with his people. And then, how would you model the cult of Hyalor? Perhaps he would be the ancestor cult, and only provide some special spirit magic related to horses and riding?

Hyalor's always more of a hero (and a confusing one at that, some texts have him as their king at the dawn as well.

I'd suggest that Hyalor Horsebreaker was a hero of Jardan (or whatever sun god is dominant in the area) and is often synonymous with that god, can be worshipped for the spell of Command Horse.

In Grazer culture though, it was the younger brother, Dastal who went further and befriended Arandayla, making a proper alliance. And this is why the Grazers have the best horses, because although others worship Hyalor in their foreign ways, none have actually befriended the Horse Mother like they have.

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What year was that made?

The only "The Horsemen" that I am finding is about a detective.. blah blah.. murdered wife... blah blah....

1971, by John Frankenheimer, with Omar Sharif, from a Joseph Kessel book