Jeff Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 So if I was a traveler from elsewhere and came to Esrolia, what I would first notice is that it is packed with people. And I'd notice Nochet, which makes Boldhome and Furthest look like villagers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leingod Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Jeff said: So if I was a traveler from elsewhere and came to Esrolia, what I would first notice is that it is packed with people. And I'd notice Nochet, which makes Boldhome and Furthest look like villagers. That's a very fair point. Most people aren't going to see these places and be able to get any kind of accurate idea of how many people live in the country versus the city; that's why a census exists, after all. It might be that Sartar keeps getting characterized as a rural backwood despite the relatively large urban population simply because it's sandwiched between Tarsh and the Holy Country, which both have a much larger overall population and have cities that are much larger and more built-up. So the popular perception of Sartar at least still makes plenty of sense. Especially since, Boldhome excepted, Sartar's cities are pretty humble-looking. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Biles Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Jeff said: So if I was a traveler from elsewhere and came to Esrolia, what I would first notice is that it is packed with people. And I'd notice Nochet, which makes Boldhome and Furthest look like villagers. It's a lot easier to accept the size of Nochet because it's a port on a major bay and now on the ocean, so bringing food by water makes it viable. That's how Rome could have a million people. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Hi interesting thing that changes a lot my view of sartar. So, as I have not enough historical background (aka irl) I ask myself about the activities in Boldhome. What are their occupations ? I understand (maybe wrongly) that Nochet needs administration, dockers and other sea/merchant activities, big library so a lot of scholar ? but Boldhome ? A mix between great sacred place so a lot of priests and a terrestrial market center so merchants, guards and kind of herd & grain transformers ? Is there in any book or elsewhere a sort of % by occupation in these cities ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen L Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 18 hours ago, Akhôrahil said: I think the argument is that 20% urbanization is huge It doesn't seem unbelievable. Given the small size of almost all the cities (only Alda-Chur and Boldhome are above 2000), distinguishing between rural and urban population is meaningless. At 2000, everyone in the city *could* till the fields, or herd cattle. They just happen to have homes behind nice walls. So the only question is really Boldhome, and that's only 11,000. 22 hours ago, John Biles said: Kingdom of Sartar has Sartar as 183,000 people. I see the Guide trimmed that down. I don't have the Guide (I'm waiting until I feel rich), but I vaguely remember that Sartar Kingdom of Heroes was roughly consistent with the population figures for Sartar in the Genertela book from RQiii. Might the reduction in population in the guide reflect not counting the Alda-Chur Alone confederations in the Sartar population count, as it's been annexed by Tarsh? Totting up only the tribes for "old" Sartar the figures from Sartar Kingdom of Heroes, it does come to 100,000 which is suggestive. However, this is all a distraction from the real question. There are 10,000 Ducks in Dragon Pass (according to Genertela book from RQiii). Any idea how are they distributed? As a working assumption, I assumed 1/3 near the marsh/Lismelder lands, 1/3 in beast valley and 1/3 distributed throughout Sartar. Obviously this fluctuated in the Duck Hunt, as a good proportion of the distributed either get killed, or flee to the marsh/beast valley, before some fraction cautiously return. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grievous Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Stephen L said: As a working assumption, I assumed 1/3 near the marsh/Lismelder lands, 1/3 in beast valley and 1/3 distributed throughout Sartar. Obviously this fluctuated in the Duck Hunt, as a good proportion of the distributed either get killed, or flee to the marsh/beast valley, before some fraction cautiously return. Yes, indeed, we have all been foolishly skirting the real issue: is Boldhome/Sartar overopopulated by ducks? Edited January 5, 2021 by Grievous 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FungusColombicus Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Grievous said: Yes, indeed, we have all been foolishly skirting the real issue: is Boldhome/Sartar overopopulated by ducks? Pre or post Argath ? Edited January 5, 2021 by FungusColombicus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jape_Vicho Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 19 hours ago, Leingod said: And unlike the Lunars, the Sartarites aren't using blood-soaked corn rites I've been reading this a lot on the forum and I'm really interested but I have never found where this is explained, could anyone point at something that I should look for or something of the sort? Also what is WBRM? Counting the "rural" and "urban" populations has always been a mess, mainly because regional variations and the impossibility to really make a objective distinction between rural and urban. Having read the comments, I would imagine Sartar not as "rural" but a place with a particularly dispersed pupulation pattern. Of course there are big cities in Sartar and a huge number of rural population in Darjinn, but also a lot of population in Quivinland lives in isolated steads with their extended family of 20 or so, and is hours away from the next stead, while the rural population of Darjinn probably lives in villages of about a hundred or more people and an hour next of another village of similar size. Both may be counted as rural, but the difference is huge. It kind of reminds me of what I heard about the demographics of medieval Russia. One question that comes with the explanations of the thread is: how can you have an extremely centralized country (Boldhome is the center to all roads, everything produced in sartar goes through it, etc.) at the same time as an extremely decentralized country (tribes with total autonomy of their affairs and each composed of clans that mostly play very local, have little contact with the exterior and are constantly quarreling)? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oracle Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 11 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said: ... Also what is WBRM? ... WBRM is White Bear & Red Moon, the board game, which made Glorantha publicly known the first time in 1975. Later republished under the name Dragon Pass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali the Helering Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 2 hours ago, Stephen L said: There are 10,000 Ducks in Dragon Pass (according to Genertela book from RQiii). Any idea how are they distributed? Loosely, along with onion, cucumber and hoi-sin sauce on a pancake 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 17 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said: One question that comes with the explanations of the thread is: how can you have an extremely centralized country (Boldhome is the center to all roads, everything produced in sartar goes through it, etc.) at the same time as an extremely decentralized country (tribes with total autonomy of their affairs and each composed of clans that mostly play very local, have little contact with the exterior and are constantly quarreling)? You have constant tension between the royal household and bureaucracy and the local leadership. So you rely on a couple things- firstly, the sacral nature of the princedom. You make it clear, in other words, that taking you out isn't a move in the game, it's smashing the whole board. Secondly, you play the role of the good king to the hilt. You squeeze foreign merchants as much as you can so you can pass out lots of rings, you render extraordinarily just and fair judgements on matters of law, and you lead the odd military expedition. Thirdly, you implicitly reserve the bulk of the military power to the cities and tribes, by maintaining a small retinue. Fourthly, you make sure you have a source of extraordinarily effective military power (eg the Telmori) within your personal control. Fifthly, you divide and conquer by incorporating people who are loyal to you and your lineage, and serving as their protector, like the Ducks and the Alda-Chur tribes and the Alone tribes and the Sun Domers and the Pol-Joni and the Telmori again, so that any alliance against you can at best form a plurality but not a majority. (Sixthly, and conspiratorially, you curse your bloodline with limited fertility to restrict the extent to which the royal family can grow. Not that Sartar would do such a thing.) But it might also be worth ditching the assumption that Sartarites are provincial out of ignorance rather than provincial for cultural identity reasons. After all, who wants to admit out loud that Esrolians make good wine, or that silk really does feel lovely against the skin? Why, I *carefully sliding several baskets behind a convenient lounge* would never *throws a blanket over the lounge to hide the Moon Rune trim* purchase anything so tainted with the poison blood of Shepelkirt! *drains the last of the amphora of rice wine and then bites into a clove of garlic like an apple to disguise the smell*. Or, to put it another way, people in a kingdom that has set its cultural identity around being Not Kethaelan first, and then Not Tarshite/Not Lunar second, may well exalt the "old ways" and the "simple life" while observing them somewhat in the breach. 5 Quote Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being. "I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010 Eight Arms and the Mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leingod Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 28 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said: I've been reading this a lot on the forum and I'm really interested but I have never found where this is explained, could anyone point at something that I should look for or something of the sort? You mean, a proper description of the actual rites? If so, I'm not really sure. It is kind of alluded to in stuff like the Guide; Hon-Eel is said to have discovered maize, she's strongly associated with imagery of human sacrifice alongside agriculture almost everywhere she appears in there (being depicted with a bloody sickle while dancing triumphantly over a man's corpse, for instance), she's stated to have rediscovered old Naverian rites of human sacrifice, so it's at least still there, but otherwise I don't know of any books that are still canonical that actually lay out the Maize Rites of Hon-Eel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Leingod said: You mean, a proper description of the actual rites? If so, I'm not really sure. It is kind of alluded to in stuff like the Guide; Hon-Eel is said to have discovered maize, she's strongly associated with imagery of human sacrifice alongside agriculture almost everywhere she appears in there (being depicted with a bloody sickle while dancing triumphantly over a man's corpse, for instance), she's stated to have rediscovered old Naverian rites of human sacrifice, so it's at least still there, but otherwise I don't know of any books that are still canonical that actually lay out the Maize Rites of Hon-Eel. To add onto this, the Lunar Heartlands and Provinces officially don't practice the full Hon-eel Rites anymore. Since the Mask of Venerabilis, they ritually sacrifice an effigy made of cornstalks instead. Settlers out in the Redlands are somewhat more likely to practice said rites in full, which sounds like an opportunity for good times all around, especially for a full party of unsuspecting PCs! I suspect that, in Tarsh especially, the full rites get performed in secret or via plausible deniability as well, given the importance of human sacrifice in Tarshite history. (EDIT: The primary source for this is the Redline History of the Lunar Empire, which is printed most fully in the Glorantha Sourcebook but also appears in part in the Guide. Venerabilis, for his part, got swallowed whole by a heron goddess, and it's hard not to see that as retribution for starving the Earth of much-needed blood.) Edited January 5, 2021 by Eff 2 Quote Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being. "I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010 Eight Arms and the Mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jape_Vicho Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 6 minutes ago, Eff said: To add onto this, the Lunar Heartlands and Provinces officially don't practice the full Hon-eel Rites anymore. Since the Mask of Venerabilis, they ritually sacrifice an effigy made of cornstalks instead. Settlers out in the Redlands are somewhat more likely to practice said rites in full, which sounds like an opportunity for good times all around, especially for a full party of unsuspecting PCs! I suspect that, in Tarsh especially, the full rites get performed in secret or via plausible deniability as well, given the importance of human sacrifice in Tarshite history. Maybe they are used for an explosive and fast increase of population? So Redlands and the repopulation of First Blessed after the ravage of the Pentans surely saw tons of it but now that the heartlands are pretty crowded it might no longer be necessary or even be dargerous. It would be surprising really, I would have expected an state like the Lunar Empire to have put those rites at maximum power forever and later deal with the excess population, there are always new lands to colonize. This would in turn create the question of how many children do average Pelorian families have and such, but that is surely overanalizing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 5 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said: Maybe they are used for an explosive and fast increase of population? So Redlands and the repopulation of First Blessed after the ravage of the Pentans surely saw tons of it but now that the heartlands are pretty crowded it might no longer be necessary or even be dargerous. It would be surprising really, I would have expected an state like the Lunar Empire to have put those rites at maximum power forever and later deal with the excess population, there are always new lands to colonize. This would in turn create the question of how many children do average Pelorian families have and such, but that is surely overanalizing. Well, that may be part of it, but I think there are two big explanations, one high-mythical and one low-mythical high-material: Firstly, the high-mythical one: the Red Moon that hangs in the Middle Air is the Balance Moon of Natha, and this balance manifests firstly through acts of extreme violence to rectify imbalances, but secondly through the equation of opposing powers. Lunar Sacred Time rites place life and death in equal positions, and it's, all other things being equal, a 50-50 chance whether the world is recreated as a living thing, or stays dead. This is deeply important. Once your brain is Sevened enough, possibly even Eighted, you begin to understand that there's no reason, in the long term, to prefer life over death, because they're the same thing taken different ways. This is also, to quote from a very different context, a hell of a way to run a railroad. Or an empire. (It might be the case that this reality means you shouldn't be trying to run an empire guided by Sedenya at all.) So the Lunar Empire spends massive resources exhorting everyone to make sure Sacred Time comes up "life", and by extension, the Lunar Empire, given the fantastical wonder grain that is maize, slammed the brakes on making full use of it, because you can only go so deep into exaltation of death and blood before Lord Death-on-a-Horse files suit for trademark infringement. And perhaps the Hon-eel Rites are not yet fully understood. And perhaps they should be explored deeper to see if there's some way to reconcile them with ruling an empire. And before you know it, you've got a whole town of vampires on your hand. Secondly, though we have the low-mythical high-material one: The Lunar Empire, following the defeat of Sheng Seleris, proceeded to significantly reshape the Lunar Way. One of the ways they did this was to create a magical language that attempts to get you to think in a particular way. We might want to ask why this had suddenly become necessary to spread the Lunar Way. Or, to put it another way, is this meant to open your mind to Sedenya, or close it until you can only approach Sedenya through a mildly safe path? One where you don't end up declaring "All life is slavery!" and just restrain yourself to Great Sister's favorite slogan: "Freedom is slavery!" And with that in mind, the Hon-eel Rites offer an unrestrained path deep into Sedenyic mysteries. Something too valuable to get rid of, but something you don't want every Tatius, Denegeria, and Harvar playing with. 1 1 Quote Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being. "I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010 Eight Arms and the Mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jape_Vicho Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 35 minutes ago, Eff said: And perhaps the Hon-eel Rites are not yet fully understood. And perhaps they should be explored deeper to see if there's some way to reconcile them with ruling an empire. And before you know it, you've got a whole town of vampires on your hand. I'm not sure I get this, you are making an analogy with the Bright Empire and chaos sprouting everywhere right? 43 minutes ago, Eff said: The Lunar Empire, following the defeat of Sheng Seleris, proceeded to significantly reshape the Lunar Way. One of the ways they did this was to create a magical language that attempts to get you to think in a particular way. This is New Pelorian? I thought those comparisons with Newspeak on The Guide to Glamour were more on the jokes side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Biles Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 Human sacrifice for grain is traditionally a corn-king. Hon-Eel's rite came from the Naverians, who helped Orlanth kill Yelm. Clearly the proper sacrifice for the Hon-Eel rites is to kill Yelm each year. Who stands for Yelm? The Moonson, that's who, thanks to being Emperor of Dara Happa. So the fullest development of Hon-Eel's rite would be to ritually sacrifice the Moonson each year. It's not hard to see why the Moonson would not like that. (One might wonder if the killing of Orlanth could serve the same purpose and bring new fertility and life to Dragon Pass once he returns from the Windstop.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 39 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said: I'm not sure I get this, you are making an analogy with the Bright Empire and chaos sprouting everywhere right? This is New Pelorian? I thought those comparisons with Newspeak on The Guide to Glamour were more on the jokes side. The Lunar Empire has, somewhere, an entire town of vampires. It's mentioned as one of the really Chaotic places in the Guide chapter on the Heartlands. Some of the vampires are used as the Red Emperor's personal bodyguards. But it's also a reference to Arkat. Arkat starts off as this Brithini kid who got raised by elves. And then he ends up experiencing several different cultures, and dying, and coming back, and realizing the connections between myths, and going deeper and further than anyone had before. And then he ended up dealing himself an unhealable wound, and then he ended up cursing Dorastor into the way it is currently, and then once he'd finally killed Gbaji, or absorbed Nysalor, or did a kind of personality shuffle, he immediately set about building his personal mythos and Otherside to prevent anyone from doing exactly what he'd done without learning his lessons first. That's how Glorantha works. You discover this secret, forbidden, occult, or new thing (say, Air, or Death, or Illumination, or mythological correspondences, or draconic consciousness, or experimental dentistry). You end up causing it to run out of control (Jaldon may have been an exception here). You end up getting destroyed or absorbed by it (Jaldon is not an exception here). Then you come back, and this time around, you're sure you'll get it right! And you do. And then you cause new problems. New Pelorian is canonically claimed to be a magical language that makes it easier to understand the Lunar Way and to become Illuminated, by the Lunar Empire. It was also, canonically, created by Great Sister during the period after the battle of Kitor. The Rough Guide To Glamour plays up the Newspeak portion of this because "death is life" is already a canonical expression of Illuminated thought, and because it's funny. But the Newspeak is something that's implicit in the idea of a magical language that reshapes your thought. But it's also true of any "mundane" language- all of them reshape your thoughts by learning them and speaking them. All language is magical, in that sense. New Pelorian is a glamour. But the glamour is important. You've gotta learn something like Aristotleian mechanics before you can get to the Newtonian, the Lagrangian and Hamiltonian, the relativistic and the quantum, etc. Trying to absorb vast quantities of information without having some kind of filtering or learning process is dangerous. 6 Quote Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being. "I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010 Eight Arms and the Mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jape_Vicho Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, Eff said: Trying to absorb vast quantities of information without having some kind of filtering or learning process is dangerous. Then my death is certainly close and caused by Too Much Glorantha Reading. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 1 minute ago, Jape_Vicho said: Then my death is certainly close and caused by Too Much Glorantha Reading. Death, Illumination, the hand of Malkion scribbling all over your walls... 1 1 Quote Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being. "I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010 Eight Arms and the Mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Dangerduck Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said: After reading Jeff's various comments on how Sartar works in other threads, my own mental shortcut is that Sartar is a case of "what if Kwarazm, but in the Caucasus?" I'm struggling with this concept. Boldhome has the Royal Road, but also seems very far to the east of the direct trade route between Peloria and Nochet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOB Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, Jeff said: And as Nick has pointed out, Boldhome is serviced by a paved road system that makes wagon transport far easier than you might imagine. And these aren't just superior Roman-style roads, magic was part of their creation. Lacking rivers and sea ports, the Sartar dynasty created these wondrous highways specifically to facilitate trade and commerce, and travelling along these roads is preternaturally easy. It's like zipping along a modern purpose-built tollway (and yeah, there are tolls) instead of laboriously wending your way from one place to another on the tortuous back roads (yeah, where there are trolls, and worse). The moment your caravan leaves a Royal Road - even to an otherwise well-constructed road - the difference is palpable. 14 hours ago, Jeff said: As a further aside, if you want to talk about how much food can be carried by animals for how far, and you aren't referencing Donald Engels, then you are just spitballing. and cats. Edited January 6, 2021 by MOB 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said: I'm struggling with this concept. Boldhome has the Royal Road, but also seems very far to the east of the direct trade route between Peloria and Nochet. Delecti, mountains, and steppes all sit in the way of the direct north-south routes, though. Quote Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being. "I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010 Eight Arms and the Mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Brooke Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 5 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said: This is New Pelorian? I thought those comparisons with Newspeak on The Guide to Glamour were more on the jokes side. Oh, @Jape_Vicho, you wound me. 2 Quote Community Ambassador - Jonstown Compendium, Chaosium, Inc. Email: nick.brooke@chaosium.com for community content queries Jonstown Compendium ⧖ Facebook Ф Twitter † old website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 7 hours ago, Eff said: To add onto this, the Lunar Heartlands and Provinces officially don't practice the full Hon-eel Rites anymore. Since the Mask of Venerabilis, they ritually sacrifice an effigy made of cornstalks instead. Settlers out in the Redlands are somewhat more likely to practice said rites in full, which sounds like an opportunity for good times all around, especially for a full party of unsuspecting PCs! I suspect that, in Tarsh especially, the full rites get performed in secret or via plausible deniability as well, given the importance of human sacrifice in Tarshite history. (EDIT: The primary source for this is the Redline History of the Lunar Empire, which is printed most fully in the Glorantha Sourcebook but also appears in part in the Guide. Venerabilis, for his part, got swallowed whole by a heron goddess, and it's hard not to see that as retribution for starving the Earth of much-needed blood.) The cult also sponsors gladiatorial games as a form of human sacrifice. That is permissible to the Red Emperor (particularly the current Mask). 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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