EricW 472 Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 Is the goddess a mask of the Devil? Or is it possible for the Goddess to be strengthened by chaos, yet reject and somehow separate herself from the nihilistic destruction represented by the chaos gods of the Greater Darkness? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Biles 426 Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 51 minutes ago, EricW said: Is the goddess a mask of the Devil? Or is it possible for the Goddess to be strengthened by chaos, yet reject and somehow separate herself from the nihilistic destruction represented by the chaos gods of the Greater Darkness? If Sedenya was Wakboth, the Lunar Empire would have gone full Chaos crazy long before the 1600s. But she's illuminated, so she thinks she can use Chaos for constructive purposes. Chaos and Law are the same, so you can make safe use of both if you know what you're doing. Sedenya has benevolent aims, but being illuminated basically means it's HUBRIS TIME. IE - this is on a level with how the EWF decided what the world needed was to turn Genertla into a dragon. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joerg 4,603 Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 Lunar lore possibly has it the other way around. In the deepest Hell, Teelo Estara offered her All to Blaskarth, the Face of Chaos, and in doing so she found Taraltara, the transcendent portion of Sedenya. Lunar or cyclical doesn't necessarily mean Chaotic. It possibly has an inherent entropic quality, but that's the nature of Time. There are plenty masks of the Devil, and both Praxians and Orlanthi are among the most diligent Devil worshipers in Glorantha, in the form of propitiary worship. The Storm Bull cult has the most dedicated worshipers propitiating the Devil. It is part of the Eternal Battle. 5 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eff 1,005 Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 Wakboth is a mask of the self. What else could the incarnation of evil be but a funhouse mirror that magnifies your own perceptions of what is evil back at you? After all, if you were confronted by evils you didn't expect, you might gain some insight from the process, and Wakboth would be demoted from the Devil to a measly Cacodemon. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Brooke 1,967 Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 She is the Mirror, and She is the Mask. By definition. NB 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
soltakss 5,065 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 23 hours ago, EricW said: Is the goddess a mask of the Devil? Yes, but the Red Goddess is a mask of many deities. She is also a mask of the Invisible God, for example. 23 hours ago, EricW said: Or is it possible for the Goddess to be strengthened by chaos, yet reject and somehow separate herself from the nihilistic destruction represented by the chaos gods of the Greater Darkness? Yes, she does that as well. Being a mask of Wakboth doesn't mean that she is Wakboth. It just means that she knows what Wakboth is and has taken on a form of Wakboth. She can be a mask of Wakboth without wanting the destruction of Glorantha. 19 hours ago, Nick Brooke said: She is the Mirror, and She is the Mask. By definition. Indeed. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle Talon 15 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 On 1/6/2021 at 7:02 AM, Nick Brooke said: She is the Mirror, and She is the Mask. By definition. NB I wonder if the different portions (similar to Dara Happan souls) of the Goddess represent different masks? As Rashorana she is the source of illumination (one incarnation being Nysalor) but as her future self she is Zatenera associated with the White Moon. Are all portions masks of Wakboth or should be considered different deities and/or masks? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jape_Vicho 173 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 (edited) What is a "Mask" exactly? What does it mean to be a mask of other, or to wear a mask? In the linguistic sense, I don't find any sense to Sedenya using Wakboth as she being a mask of him. Edited January 7 by Jape_Vicho Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eff 1,005 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 29 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said: What is a "Mask" exactly? What does it mean to be a mask of other, or to wear a mask? In the linguistic sense, I don't find any sense to Sedenya using Wakboth as she being a mask of him. Well, if She were a human being and nothing else, we might use the phrase "persona" instead. Jung defined the persona as a kind of mask over deeper individuality that both presents a specific social face and conceals the reality of the total entity. But Mask helps us get away from Jung's linearity of breakdown and recreation and emphasize that She wears each Mask as She pleases, or perhaps as we perceive Her. So another way to put it- the Mask is a lesser component of a greater self, a little selfhood that expresses some salient characteristics of the whole. So the Red Emperor adopts different Masks to accommodate different situations, but the entire Takenegi/Moonson/Doskalos/Rufus entity incorporates all those characteristics. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jape_Vicho 173 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 24 minutes ago, Eff said: Well, if She were a human being and nothing else, we might use the phrase "persona" instead. Jung defined the persona as a kind of mask over deeper individuality that both presents a specific social face and conceals the reality of the total entity. But Mask helps us get away from Jung's linearity of breakdown and recreation and emphasize that She wears each Mask as She pleases, or perhaps as we perceive Her. Then Wakboth is a mask of Sedenya, and not the other way around, right? Or is Sedenya not Her? This really is extremely complicated. 28 minutes ago, Eff said: So the Red Emperor adopts different Masks to accommodate different situations, but the entire Takenegi/Moonson/Doskalos/Rufus entity incorporates all those characteristics. Always saw it as the opposite, the individual Red Emperors were Egi, illuminate masters chosen by Sedenya, that descended upon the death of the previous Emperor and assumed the Mask of TakenEgi in turn to rule the Empire, and at the same time TakenEgi wears a mask of Murharzarm. This made sense to me because in the Gods Wall drawing for RQ TakenEgi is seen literally wearing a mask of an idealized Dara Happan ruler face, which to me indicates a façade of continuity over a reality of individuality. Also in the Glorantha Sourcebook the images of the Red Emperor and Murharzarm are the same but with different colorations. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eff 1,005 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 4 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said: Then Wakboth is a mask of Sedenya, and not the other way around, right? Or is Sedenya not Her? This really is extremely complicated. Always saw it as the opposite, the individual Red Emperors were Egi, illuminate masters chosen by Sedenya, that descended upon the death of the previous Emperor and assumed the Mask of TakenEgi in turn to rule the Empire, and at the same time TakenEgi wears a mask of Murharzarm. This made sense to me because in the Gods Wall drawing for RQ TakenEgi is seen literally wearing a mask of an idealized Dara Happan ruler face, which to me indicates a façade of continuity over a reality of individuality. Also in the Glorantha Sourcebook the images of the Red Emperor and Murharzarm are the same but with different colorations. Well. It's somewhat more complicated. Anyone can wear the archetype/Mask of the Devil. (One of the incarnations of the Devil, Sekever, actually fought Chaos, according to the people of the Kingdom of Ignorance... but they may simply be trolling the Kralori.) So Sedenya can put on Her diabolic Mask... And, indeed, according to the Life of Sedenya, She confronted the Devil partway through Her Godquest and was killed and tormented by him... or her, because the Devil was actually Taraltara, and actually Her, because Sedenya pulled off Taraltara's mask to reveal Her own face, achieving transcedence (and making all of the Seven Mothers repeat what she was saying, coincidentally.) But by the same token, the Devil can use anyone as a Mask, whenever they do devilish acts. Arkat, Nysalor, which was Gbaji? Both. And neither. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jape_Vicho 173 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 3 minutes ago, Eff said: And, indeed, according to the Life of Sedenya, She confronted the Devil partway through Her Godquest and was killed and tormented by him... or her, because the Devil was actually Taraltara, and actually Her, because Sedenya pulled off Taraltara's mask to reveal Her own face So... We are all Us? 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Scott 3,768 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 1 hour ago, Jape_Vicho said: What is a "Mask" exactly? Use of masks of gods in Glorantha tends to be based on Joseph Campbell's works, Hero with the 1000 faces and the four volume masks of god. Although originally based on Jung's mask ideas, Campbell was a mythologist, not a therapist and so widened the ideas of the masks of gods. Examples of masks of gods in Glorantha are Bisos and Storm Bull are masks of the Bull god. Neither are the bull god, but are similar enough to be recognised as a mask. On 1/6/2021 at 8:19 AM, EricW said: Is the goddess a mask of the Devil? No, but Wakboth is a mask of the devil. Sedenya is a mask of the Moon goddess, like all of the other moon goddesses. Is she a mask of Nysalor. Maybe. She's definitely a mask of illumination, as is Rashoran, Rashorana, Nysalor, Gbaji. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jape_Vicho 173 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 14 minutes ago, David Scott said: Use of masks of gods in Glorantha tends to be based on Joseph Campbell's works, Hero with the 1000 faces and the four volume masks of god. Although originally based on Jung's mask ideas, Campbell was a mythologist, not a therapist and so widened the ideas of the masks of gods. Thanks, I had known of the existence of Joseph Campbell but never read any of his works, knowing they had influence over Glorantha make me more eager to read them. 16 minutes ago, David Scott said: Examples of masks of gods in Glorantha are Bisos and Storm Bull are masks of the Bull god. Neither are the bull god, but are similar enough to be recognised as a mask. No, but Wakboth is a mask of the devil. Sedenya is a mask of the Moon goddess, like all of the other moon goddesses. Is she a mask of Nysalor. Maybe. She's definitely a mask of illumination, as is Rashoran, Rashorana, Nysalor, Gbaji. Interesting, but could we say in the same line that both Urox and the "bull god" are maks of the Storm? Such as Orlanth, Vadrus, etc.? If Wakboth is a mask of the devil it's then kajabor, to name another great chaos entity, another mask of it? Is the Devil then the concept of "the end of the World"? Isn't this basically what the malkioni say? That the barbarians worship that which emanates from the runes, molding it to fit their imaginations? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joerg 4,603 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said: What is a "Mask" exactly? What does it mean to be a mask of other, or to wear a mask? In the linguistic sense, I don't find any sense to Sedenya using Wakboth as she being a mask of him. One of my whackier theories about the nature of Gbaji, Arkat and Nysalor is that Gbaji was the mask of Arkat when viewed from Nysalor's side of reality, and the mask of Nysalor when viewed from Arkat's side of reality. The battle on top of the tower of the City of Miracles was a duel between Gbaji and Gbaji, leaving at least one of the combatants dead and dismembered. The weird two-dimensional, hollow form of Ralzakark may be a manifestation of that (the rightmost of the three Ralzakarks on p.343 in the Guide). Edited January 7 by Joerg 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Scott 3,768 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said: Thanks, I had known of the existence of Joseph Campbell but never read any of his works, knowing they had influence over Glorantha make me more eager to read them. Start with the Hero with 100 faces, they can be hard going: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/readings/ Quote The Masks of God & The Hero with a Thousand Faces Campbell, Joseph. Campbell’s monomyth of the hero’s journey, Joseph Campbell, more than any other writer, has had tremendous influence on Gloranthan mythology. The Hero of a Thousand Faces is the cheat code for heroquesting and, along with the Masks of God, is the source of the Monomyth (even if Joyce coined the term). I’d say this is the foundational text for Gloranthan mythology. Quote but could we say in the same line that both Urox and the "bull god" are maks of the Storm? Such as Orlanth, Vadrus, etc.? I don't feel that the bull god is part of the Storm. Urox isn't a mask, just another local name for Storm Bull. They are the same. Masks of the Storm are certainly parts of Orlanth. Quote If Wakboth is a mask of the devil it's then kajabor, to name another great chaos entity, another mask of it? Yes. Quote Is the Devil then the concept of "the end of the World"? The Devil is chaos bad stuff. Don't look too close at the detail, look at the bigger picture. Quote Isn't this basically what the malkioni say? That the barbarians worship that which emanates from the runes, molding it to fit their imaginations? and welcome to the world of Joseph Campbell 🙂 Edited January 7 by David Scott 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eff 1,005 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 4 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said: So... We are all Us? We are all Us. (Take a check on that Illumination skill, too!) 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Biles 426 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 Imagine that Chaos is a huge mass of moulding clay. When it enters the world, it has to enter through a hole in the universe which extrudes it into a particular form. But it's still moulding clay in a particular shape. Those holes are the masks of Chaos. That is the sense in which all Chaos is one. (Ie, the true god of Chaos is Rankin-Bass.) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jajagappa 4,883 Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 1 hour ago, John Biles said: (Ie, the true god of Chaos is Rankin-Bass.) The Little Drummer Boy or Frosty the Snowman? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Biles 426 Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 44 minutes ago, jajagappa said: The Little Drummer Boy or Frosty the Snowman? Both are but masks of Rankin-Bass. But I personally imagine the snowman played by Burl Ives as the true face of Wakboth. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
soltakss 5,065 Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 13 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said: 13 hours ago, David Scott said: Use of masks of gods in Glorantha tends to be based on Joseph Campbell's works, Hero with the 1000 faces and the four volume masks of god. Although originally based on Jung's mask ideas, Campbell was a mythologist, not a therapist and so widened the ideas of the masks of gods. Thanks, I had known of the existence of Joseph Campbell but never read any of his works, knowing they had influence over Glorantha make me more eager to read them. They are useful. Hero with a Thousand Faces is good, especially for HeroQuesting, but I think that The Masks of God series is better. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hteph 66 Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 2 hours ago, soltakss said: They are useful. Hero with a Thousand Faces is good, especially for HeroQuesting, but I think that The Masks of God series is better. Also remember that they are written a while ago. There is a sligth fixation about malehood which i found annoying. Apparently every story comes from the male fear of women (and apperntly only males produces stories worth talking about). But it is a foundation and after that theere are plenty of more modern writing to fill up with. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dumuzid 545 Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 J. Campbell's work has been around long enough that there are jokes about his theories written into the setting. My favorite is Glorantha's own 'Hero with a Thousand Faces,' Ezkankekko. Every society in central Genertela has a story about a tall, dark stranger of their own species inviting them into a league of mutual support and defense with the other surviving peoples of the Greater Darkness? It's all one hero, but he could shapeshift! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Storm Khan 40 Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 You all are freaking me out. Stop it. 🤨 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Whizbang 47 Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 23 hours ago, John Biles said: But I personally imagine the snowman played by Burl Ives as the true face of Wakboth Dr. Raymond Stantz: I tried to think of the most harmless thing. Something I loved from my childhood. Something that could never ever possibly destroy us. Mr. Stay Puft! Dr. Peter Venkman: Nice thinkin', Ray. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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