Yelmalio - the Beginning

[Jape_Vicho]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Yelmalio proves that ZZ has lost his full power over Death by living, by refusing to be killed by one who isn’t just. 

Funnily Yelmalio and Humakt are said to share a "friendly" or "healthy" rivalry, and that interpretation of the Hill of Gold really fits that relationship, with Yelmalio fighting against his friendly rival's great and cruel rival, it's kinda wholesome, I like it a lot. 

 

34 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Interesting, I can buy it.  By that same logic, Yanafal proves that Humakt has lost his full power over Death.

Interesting, the lunars may very well say so, but I'm curious of how could they tell it. If I'm not mistaken, Yanafal Tarnils "wins" bc he does things Humakt would not (being dishonorable), there were plenty dishonorable war gods in Glorantha prior to him though. 

[Leingod]

2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Interesting, the lunars may very well say so, but I'm curious of how could they tell it. If I'm not mistaken, Yanafal Tarnils "wins" bc he does things Humakt would not (being dishonorable), there were plenty dishonorable war gods in Glorantha prior to him though. 

Quite easily. Historically, most groups or societies that put a lot of store in "honor" and honor codes are also experts at finding or manufacturing loopholes and exceptions to allow them to do things that should be considered dishonorable by their own rules, but aren't in this particular instance for whatever reason. The Lunars probably have some eminently reasonable-sounding excuses for why the strict honor demanded of Yanafal Tarnils's worshipers didn't apply to Yanafal Tarnils himself whenever he acted in a blatantly dishonorable fashion.

Or maybe they even just go, "Oh, well, he was doing it for the Red Goddess, so anything goes." That's also not an uncommon way of excusing dishonorable behavior. Then again, I'm of the cynical belief that "honor" is by and large a total sham, so maybe that's just my own opinions talking.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Leingod

[John Biles]

57 minutes ago, Leingod said:

Quite easily. Historically, most groups or societies that put a lot of store in "honor" and honor codes are also experts at finding or manufacturing loopholes and exceptions to allow them to do things that should be considered dishonorable by their own rules, but aren't in this particular instance for whatever reason. The Lunars probably have some eminently reasonable-sounding excuses for why the strict honor demanded of Yanafal Tarnils's worshipers didn't apply to Yanafal Tarnils himself whenever he acted in a blatantly dishonorable fashion.

Or maybe they even just go, "Oh, well, he was doing it for the Red Goddess, so anything goes." That's also not an uncommon way of excusing dishonorable behavior. Then again, I'm of the cynical belief that "honor" is by and large a total sham, so maybe that's just my own opinions talking.

Humakti have variable oaths.

This essentially means what is honorable and what is oath-breaking is different for every Humakti.

So Humakti just find the guy whose oath says X is okay to do X.

Yanafal... doesn't have oaths.  I suspect their honor is something like 'following your commander's orders and crushing your enemies is the heart of honor'.

Humakti are warriors and Yanafal's followers are soldiers.

 

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Humakt dissociated himself and did absolutely effing nothing in the God's War.

Humakt (and also Daka Fal) pulled a heavy load by separating the dead from the living packing them off into the underworld. Not glamorous, but someone's gotta do it!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

If I'm not mistaken, Yanafal Tarnils "wins" bc he does things Humakt would not (being dishonorable),

Well, you are mistaken.  At least how I understand Yanafal.

Yanafal was a Humakti who dies, self ressurects, yet, by the power of some Sedenyic mumbo jumbo, and in honorable ceremony / duel with Humakt, maintains his Honor and becomes a God.

Unlike ZZ, Yanafal is not a hated enemy of Humakt.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Joerg]

43 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

What really baffles me of the fact that Kargzant is Lightfore, and therefore a version Yelmalio, is why his cult is called Yelm (and describes as being so) in RQG.

You are far from alone in that bafflement, and the distinctions made between the sun disk and the sun horse and whatnot. It's all gods within gods, venn diagrams rather than clear definitions.

The nature of the Solar Emperor cult is at least as mysterious as is the row of previous and concurrent incarnations of Sedenya. There are separations and mergers and falling apart and battles in the sky.

All the Golden Age is a Sunstop, yet there was night long before Umath invaded the Sky World, and a young Yelm conquered the world at the start of the Golden Age while Yelm the Emperor already hung in the sky with only minor altitude adjustments.

 

Who is (y)(u)(e)(hi)lm(al)(io/e)? What's the deal with Antirius, Daysenerus and Tharkantus? What about the Griffin Sun, the Dragon Sun, why just the Sun Birds and Horses (and in several places)? Why no Yamsur, and what about Hyalor?

Where do the Starlight Wanderers enter, or the Shadow Rider (confronted by Vuranoste/um) come into this?

What about Harono of Esrolian lore?

And why did Sandy Petersena's Gods War game portray the Emperor as a dragon - just a EWFism, or an older truth that the Dara Happans have pushed out of their memories?

 

What happened to the Sun and its deity should be a universal truth, observable in the sky dome from anywhere beneath, right?f

At the very least, the Orlanthi and the Dara Happans agree very much about the Copper Ledgers (as depicted in the Guide), only disagreeing about the names and the meanings of the events. And these events show how Reladivus aka Kargzant emerged as one of the Planetary Sons, and how he remained in the sky when Umath broke the stagnant (Sunstop?) formation (aka the Perfect Sky in Dara Happa) before being dismembered by Jagrekriand/Shargash/Tolat/Vorthan.

In Umath's wake, the stars emerged into the sky, taking up (or back) their positions that had not been seen before. Later on, many of these star captains leaped down to the surface to act as local defenders/guardians - dozens, if not hundreds of local variations of the Antirius myth about the static defender of people whose actions as defender cause a descent and ultimately death/extinction of the Star Captain, allowing the community to survive in a number of cases. Possibly falling to a descending Fire Demon/destroyer of the Jagrekriand/Shargash/Tolat kind.

One such localized myth can be found as the story of Garan, lover of Serias (in Heortling Mythology) and presence of the fire demons at the Battle of Aurochs Hills

 

Somehow the slaying of the (Eveil) Emperor of the World resulted in a weakened orb or disk slowly lowering down from the sky, coming to rest on the local ziggurat/peak. At the same time, the steadfast spear warrior and/or horse (man) wandered the sky/the surface world defending the surviving communities against monsters.

 

43 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

I get not calling it Yelmalio as the cult itself is really different but not only he is different to Yelm in his nature (bc Kargzant is a part of him) but the nomad Kargzant cult is extremely different to the Dara Happan Yelm one, which is the "standard" or "prestige" cult for that god. I mean I understand it's a design choice but really messes with you if you try to understand Yelmic deep lore (which I'm far from understanding yet). 

Elmal and Yelmalio and Kargzant and Hyalor's dad/ancestor all have something to do with Sunhorses, ripped out wings and beaks/canines/claws. 

There doesn't seem to be any single, streamlined myth that explains the identifications of Yelm, Yelmalio, Lightfore and whatever other names there may crop up, and while the long cult write-ups suggest that there is such a myth, it doesn't touch upon all the secrets and alternatives of the cult, and tries to touch on as many such aspects as it can when many local variants won't have all of what is described there (like shamans of Yelm outside of horse nomad culture).

 

[soltakss]

 

On 1/16/2021 at 7:03 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Humakt is Death. 

 

Humakt wields Death. He is closely connected to Death but is not Death.

 

[Oracle]

But if you look at the myth about The Arming of Orlanth (Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes, The Book of Heortling Mythology😞

Quote

Then Heler girded about his lord’s waist a stout belt cut with magical figures, which bore the sword whose name is Humakt.

So at least at this point Humakt is the sword, and therefore he is Death.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Oracle

[Jeff]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Well, you are mistaken.  At least how I understand Yanafal.

Yanafal was a Humakti who dies, self ressurects, yet, by the power of some Sedenyic mumbo jumbo, and in honorable ceremony / duel with Humakt, maintains his Honor and becomes a God.

Unlike ZZ, Yanafal is not a hated enemy of Humakt.

Correct on both accounts.

[Joerg]

55 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Humakt wields Death. He is closely connected to Death but is not Death.

As far as I am concerned, Humakt is both the wielder of the original sword of Death, and the sword itself. 

When Grandfather Mortal tried out the new, untested power Eurmal and Humakt had lifted from Subere's vault/the Chaosium, Humakt owned the act, and became the act of dealing out capital-D Death. (Eurmal pretty much prefers to be identified with the Lesser Death... even though he, too, has an aspect that is bringing Death just by his presence.)

The deity present inside its own paraphernalia is a common occurrance. Eurmal is his own misplaced dick, Lodril is just the same with his misplaced spear, and Humakt gets passed around after being separated from his two-legged divine expression, undergoing a number of shapes and owners before returning. Speaking of misplaced weapons, the Red Sword of Tolat may be another such pars-pro-toto item.

Orlanth is the world storm (aka Ohorlanth), he is the Thunderbolt, he is the Storm Ram, and he is (part of) Orlanth's Ring in the sky. At the same time.  Arcane Lore has a few notes on the subject of pluripresence.

Yelmalio is the Shield of Justice, even though he lost it to Orlanth.

[Akhôrahil]

That gods can be several things at once is part of their nature, even.

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Yelmalio is the Shield of Justice, even though he lost it to Orlanth.

Orlanth wielding Yelmalio is an interesting theological situation.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

11 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Orlanth wielding Yelmalio is an interesting theological situation.

Yes. On the one hand, Orlanth weakened Yelmalio as a defender of Justice.

On the other hand, Orlanth became Yelmalio's stand-in as defender of Justice. This may be behind Orlanth's one great victory over Chaos, when he defended the Upper Air/Middle Sky against the Sky Terror and its hordes.

I wonder whether this carries forward to the Bridling of Kargzant, too.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Joerg

[Jape_Vicho]

7 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Well, you are mistaken.  At least how I understand Yanafal.

Yanafal was a Humakti who dies, self ressurects, yet, by the power of some Sedenyic mumbo jumbo, and in honorable ceremony / duel with Humakt, maintains his Honor and becomes a God.

Unlike ZZ, Yanafal is not a hated enemy of Humakt.

Strange, I remember reading here both that YT defeated Humakt bc he was distracted by other enemies or YT let some of his allies into the sacred duel ground and thus it became an unjust fight and also that Humakti hate YT's guts bc they see them as dishonorable heretics. Must have either read wrong or read something that was wrong.

Anyway this makes much more sense bc Humakt is still an important war god in the Empire and how was that going to be if his and YT's cultists had such a bad relation? I have always wondered that but if what you say it's true then it makes perfect sense. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Orlanth is the world storm (aka Ohorlanth), he is the Thunderbolt, he is the Storm Ram, and he is (part of) Orlanth's Ring in the sky. At the same time.

+

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Orlanth wielding Yelmalio is an interesting theological situation.

= Orlanth is Yelmalio ?

 

At the end, there is only the invisible god or the chaos to not become insane !

 

[davecake]

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

By that same logic, Yanafal proves that Humakt has lost his full power over Death.

 

I don't actually follow that - Yanafal does, indeed, die, and ends in the Underworld. He just is resurrected - in defiance of his initiation oaths to Humakt, so not possible unless Yanafals was Illuminated, but he was, as a result of his quest to save the Goddess, during which he kills death. This does not change Humakts relationship with Death, only Yanafals (though it does change the relationship between Humakt and Yanafals). 

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Maybe I'm going by "old" material, but, in Cults of Prax, Humakt is quite passive

 

If you haven't paid attention to anything written about Humakt in over 40 years, I think that says more about you than Humakt! 

[dumuzid]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

= Orlanth is Yelmalio ?

We Are All Us

[Richard S.]

23 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

What really baffles me of the fact that Kargzant is Lightfore, and therefore a version Yelmalio, is why his cult is called Yelm (and describes as being so) in RQG. I get not calling it Yelmalio as the cult itself is really different but not only he is different to Yelm in his nature (bc Kargzant is a part of him) but the nomad Kargzant cult is extremely different to the Dara Happan Yelm one, which is the "standard" or "prestige" cult for that god. I mean I understand it's a design choice but really messes with you if you try to understand Yelmic deep lore (which I'm far from understanding yet). 

One thing you should keep in mind is that there's both Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant. Kargzant is the little sun worshipped in Pent, Yu-Kargzant is Yelm as worshipped by the Pure Horse People (the Yelm described in RQG core). YK is Kargzant after he became the emperor at the dawning, while just Kargzant is still lightfore. As for the differences between Yu-Kargzant and Yelm's cults, they really aren't that different. The Yelm writeup in the Cult Compendium is probably closest to current Gloranthan canon, based on how everything else has seemed to go these past few years, so you may want to look there for some clarification on that point.

[Jape_Vicho]

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

One thing you should keep in mind is that there's both Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant. Kargzant is the little sun worshipped in Pent, Yu-Kargzant is Yelm as worshipped by the Pure Horse People (the Yelm described in RQG core). YK is Kargzant after he became the emperor at the dawning, while just Kargzant is still lightfore.

After giving this think some thought and seeing that as you said the Yelm cult on the CC is extremely similar to the one the Grazers have, yeah it makes sense that Yu-Kargzant is called and described as Yelm. His cults have basically the same structure and both are worshipped as the Sun (Elmal is also worshipped as the sun but he is neither independent nor is his cult structured like those ((maybe it was for a time when all the solar cult unrest happened in sartar?? Sounds interesting idk)) so it makes sense that he is not called Yelm) even though their mythologies and philosophies differ greatly.

What I don't get is that distinction between Kargzant with or without Yu-. The Guide does not mention it, and the Pentans are also described as having Sun cult which is basically the same as the one of the Grazers and Dara Happans. Having consulted all sources I have it looks like Yu-Kargzant is just a different name of Kargzant, product of the centuries of isolation of the Grazers from the rest of Pentans, and his philosophy, mythology and magics are basically the same. After all, why would the Pentans have lost the cult of Kargzant as Emperor having been in a much more solar-oriented environment that the Grazers who have spent centuries surrounded by storm and beast worshippers? 

[jajagappa]

15 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Kargzant with or without Yu-

Kargzant = Lightfore = Yelmalio = "little sun"

Yu-Kargzant = Yelm = the Sun God (per Glorious ReAscent, it literally means "Shining Overhead")

If you work your way through the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, you'll also find that the "Yu-" prefix generally seems to mean "God" or "of God" (combined in words such as Yuthubars, city of God, and Yuthuppa, ship of God).  

[John Biles]

I can't help but imagine a version of the Death of Yelm where he keeps eating rival sun gods until he's utterly overloaded and barely able to contain them, then Orlanth gives him a thin mint (that he got from Naveria) and Yelm explodes, releasing them all and dies and sinks into Hell until Orlanth descends and reconciles with him.

 

[Jape_Vicho]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Kargzant = Lightfore = Yelmalio = "little sun"

Yu-Kargzant = Yelm = the Sun God (per Glorious ReAscent, it literally means "Shining Overhead")

If you work your way through the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, you'll also find that the "Yu-" prefix generally seems to mean "God" or "of God" (combined in words such as Yuthubars, city of God, and Yuthuppa, ship of God).  

Yeah one of those sources I don't have is that one, and it also scares me stupid bc I'm sure it will be too big for my little brain. I still don't understand why would the Grazers worship Kargzant as Yelm but the Pentans do not and instead worship a weaker version of him, but I guess the answer lies in the Glorious ReAscent. 

[Tindalos]

17 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Yeah one of those sources I don't have is that one, and it also scares me stupid bc I'm sure it will be too big for my little brain. I still don't understand why would the Grazers worship Kargzant as Yelm but the Pentans do not and instead worship a weaker version of him, but I guess the answer lies in the Glorious ReAscent. 

Given the description of Kargzant in the guide and how it defines the life path of the Pentans, it's pretty clearly the same as Yu-Kargzant.

It's possible that it's dropped in Pentan due to Yu meaning Imperial, and getting associated with their Dara Happan rivals. 

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Jape_Vicho said:

What I don't get is that distinction between Kargzant with or without Yu-. The Guide does not mention it, and the Pentans are also described as having Sun cult which is basically the same as the one of the Grazers and Dara Happans. Having consulted all sources I have it looks like Yu-Kargzant is just a different name of Kargzant, product of the centuries of isolation of the Grazers from the rest of Pentans, and his philosophy, mythology and magics are basically the same.

The Yu-Kargzant and Yelm cults are indeed pretty similar, but not identical - and the version in the rules book is Yu-Kargzant, because that is the one that gets substantial worship in Dragon Pass among the Grazers. The Yelm cult among the Dara Happans has no shamans, has an additional status/sub-cult called Yelm Imperator that you can only join if you are the current ruler rightful ruler of a noble land-holding office (eg one of the actual current rulers, not just a noble), and the cult cares a bit less about horses (still pretty keen on them, but not the Pure Horse Tribe obsession with them) and more about raptor birds, some of them even ride griffins. 

Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant are quite different though. The Pentans are still big believers in both hereditary noble blood, and the sacredness of the Pure Horse Tribe, so only a few of them get to join Yu-Kargzant and get fully access to the powers of fire. Kargzant is still the cold sun - the god they followed that led them through the Great Darkness - and only a few of them are descended from the early First Age Emperors who were able to prove that the Cold Sun became the Sun at the Dawn. Kargzant is about surviving the harsh life of the Pentan tundra. It is still the cold sun/Lightfore god, but in practice quite different to Yelmalio because they are entirely about living and fighting on horseback as nomad cavalry and herders, with not a Templar, hoplite or Sun Dome in sight - a lot of the magic is the same though. I don't think the Pentans think of Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant as different gods exactly, they think of Yu-Kargzant as Kargzant in his full power, and that only the most sacred people are entitled to worship him that way. Of course, the Dara Happan interpretation of all this is very different. 

The main practical difference between Yu-Kargzant among the Grazers and Yu-Kargzant among the Pentans, apart from the obvious that all the Grazers are Pure Horse Tribe but only a minority of Pentans, is associated cults - among the Grazers Yu-Kargzant is associated with Ernalda, among the Pentans Yu-Kargzant is associated with Dendara. 

 

 

[Jape_Vicho]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant are quite different though. The Pentans are still big believers in both hereditary noble blood, and the sacredness of the Pure Horse Tribe, so only a few of them get to join Yu-Kargzant and get fully access to the powers of fire. Kargzant is still the cold sun - the god they followed that led them through the Great Darkness - and only a few of them are descended from the early First Age Emperors who were able to prove that the Cold Sun became the Sun at the Dawn. Kargzant is about surviving the harsh life of the Pentan tundra.[...] I don't think the Pentans think of Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant as different gods exactly, they think of Yu-Kargzant as Kargzant in his full power, and that only the most sacred people are entitled to worship him that way. Of course, the Dara Happan interpretation of all this is very different. 

Well that is an interpretation sure, we could sum it up by saying that in pentan society the traditional clans worship Kargzant as the little sun while the Pure Horse People worship that god as Yelm, the problem is that there is no proof for that AFAIK.

As many have said, the Guide clearly states that pentans worship Kargzant, and there is absolutely no mention to Yu-Kargzant in all their section of the Guide, the only one time Yu-Kargzant is mentioned in all the Guide is in page 177, when it talks about the Grazers' religion. Besides, Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant (and also Elmal) are described in the same way, as Sun Horse and Sun God, and the description of the Kargzant cult in page 363 clearly points to his cult being structured exactly like the Grazer one, meaning that it has a progression organized by subcults and age. So by all this, Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant cults are exacty the same, the same magic, the same myths, same structure... The only difference is the name, which I dig, as @Tindalos said, that the Yu- was dropped because of anti-Dara Happan sentiment.

I get where your theory comes from and it sounds good, but it doesn't look at all like it's a set-in-stone clear-cult canon thing, it's one of many interpretations, and until we see a full developement of pentan society and religion we will never know for sure.

[Eff]

On 1/20/2021 at 5:36 AM, Jape_Vicho said:

Strange, I remember reading here both that YT defeated Humakt bc he was distracted by other enemies or YT let some of his allies into the sacred duel ground and thus it became an unjust fight and also that Humakti hate YT's guts bc they see them as dishonorable heretics. Must have either read wrong or read something that was wrong.

Anyway this makes much more sense bc Humakt is still an important war god in the Empire and how was that going to be if his and YT's cultists had such a bad relation? I have always wondered that but if what you say it's true then it makes perfect sense. 

There's two major events that define the YT/Humakt interactions. 

Firstly, when Yanafal descended into the depths of Hell to seek out the Red Goddess, he ended up sacrificing himself to return Her to life. The text which describes this event in detail notes that he had a wasp's head embedded in his waist, and when he killed himself, the wasp's head fell off and laughed. Carmanian Humakt is often depicted as having the head of a wasp. And then Yanafal returned to life from death, following some intervening events that aren't quite relevant here. 

So this is where YT gets his ability to Resurrect, as it were- he used Humakt against Humakt, severing himself from his god partially, and I would say entered into a transcendent understanding of Death in the process. 

The second event is that in the Battle of the Four Arrows of Light, Yanafal Tarnils was the Third Arrow fired against the Carmanians by the Red Goddess, used when they had summoned Humakt to the battlefield. Lunar magic blew away most of Humakt's bodyguard and attending heroes, and so Yanafal managed to duel Humakt to a standstill with the help of his supporting bodyguard and magicians.

So YT splits himself off from Humakti orthopraxy- "dead is dead"- and then when he returns from his metaphorical sojourn in the wilderness, he proves that he's still capable of behaving like the best of the Humakti. And so they're at peace with one another, because they understand each other thoroughly now.