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Yelmalio - the Beginning


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38 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Well that is an interpretation sure, we could sum it up by saying that in pentan society the traditional clans worship Kargzant as the little sun while the Pure Horse People worship that god as Yelm, the problem is that there is no proof for that AFAIK.

As many have said, the Guide clearly states that pentans worship Kargzant, and there is absolutely no mention to Yu-Kargzant in all their section of the Guide, the only one time Yu-Kargzant is mentioned in all the Guide is in page 177, when it talks about the Grazers' religion. Besides, Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant (and also Elmal) are described in the same way, as Sun Horse and Sun God, and the description of the Kargzant cult in page 363 clearly points to his cult being structured exactly like the Grazer one, meaning that it has a progression organized by subcults and age. So by all this, Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant cults are exacty the same, the same magic, the same myths, same structure... The only difference is the name, which I dig, as @Tindalos said, that the Yu- was dropped because of anti-Dara Happan sentiment.

I get where your theory comes from and it sounds good, but it doesn't look at all like it's a set-in-stone clear-cult canon thing, it's one of many interpretations, and until we see a full developement of pentan society and religion we will never know for sure.

I can't find the exact quote, but I belive it was said elsewhere (probably by jeff), that there's pretty much no PHP left in Pent - the remainder are what we know as the Grazelanders - and Kargzant the Little Sun is the Pentan's primary god. They don't worship Yu-Kargzant/Yelm at all.

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48 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I can't find the exact quote, but I belive it was said elsewhere (probably by jeff), that there's pretty much no PHP left in Pent - the remainder are what we know as the Grazelanders - and Kargzant the Little Sun is the Pentan's primary god. They don't worship Yu-Kargzant/Yelm at all.

Certainly you can take the Sourcebook as agreeing there: (Page 13)

Quote

The Grazelanders are one of the few remaining Pure Horse Peoples in Glorantha. Most of the horse-riding nomads in Pent continue to worship the Sun Horse, but have compromised the Old Way to include the enslavement of the Cow Goddess. Thus, most Pentans have lost much of their ancient power, and cannot contact Golden Bow directly, as the Grazelanders can.

(Of course, the Golden Bow is also connected to Jardan in King of Sartar page 90, who seems another Lightfore god)

On the other hand, it's mentioned that Yelm is the ruling god of Pent. And of course, Golden Bow is one of the gods worshipped by the Pentans (GtG 364, but see above).

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3 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

On the other hand, it's mentioned that Yelm is the ruling god of Pent. And of course, Golden Bow is one of the gods worshipped by the Pentans (GtG 364, but see above).

I take this to mean that Yelm is the ruling god but with weaker magic than would otherwise be the case, while the tribes worshiping the Four Winds are a large minority.

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2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

we could sum it up by saying that in pentan society the traditional clans worship Kargzant as the little sun while the Pure Horse People worship that god as Yelm

 
 

Well, those who are permitted to initiate into Yu-Kargzant join Yu-Kargzant, those who are not generally worship Kargzant. Permission to initiate is, just like Yelm in Dara Happa, primarily hereditary. Among the PHP a large proportion are considered descended from Yelm and so can initiate, among other tribes a small minority. 

 

2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

As many have said, the Guide clearly states that pentans worship Kargzant

 
 

Yes, of the 10 tribes 1 is PHP, 6 are traditional Solar, 3 Storm. So numerically, Kargzant is more worshipped. That doesn't mean that Yu-Kargzant is not the most important god - just as we still talk about Dara Happa as being Yelmic despite the Lodril peasants being more numerous. 

2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

the only one time Yu-Kargzant is mentioned in all the Guide is in page 177, when it talks about the Grazers' religion.

 
 

Yes, in the Guide he is referred to as Yelm in Pent. 

 

2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

the description of the Kargzant cult in page 363 clearly points to his cult being structured exactly like the Grazer one, meaning that it has a progression organized by subcults and age.

 
 
 

The Pentan tribes all have a very similar structure, with status organised by sub-cult and age, and it is not that different for the Storm tribes either. It is also quite similar to the structure of the Yelm cult in Dara Happa. 

2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

So by all this, Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant cults are exacty the same, the same magic, the same myths, same structure...

 
 

and 

13 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Given the description of Kargzant in the guide and how it defines the life path of the Pentans, it's pretty clearly the same as Yu-Kargzant.

 

And I am saying that is it not exactly the same, and does not have the same magic, but the myths do have a significant amount in common, and there is a similar structure because it is cultural, not simply a cult thing. 

There is a lot more to it too - there is some Polaris worship, there are the Storm tribes, some Blood Sun worship has crept in, there is Eiritha worship, Hippoi, Hyalor, etc. 

2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

I get where your theory comes from and it sounds good, but it doesn't look at all like it's a set-in-stone clear-cult canon thing, it's one of many interpretations, and until we see a full developement of pentan society and religion we will never know for sure.

 
 

What you probably should realise is that I am taking quite a bit of this from the draft of the Gods Book - which is not going to be exactly the same as what makes it to print soon, but is likely to be quite similar, and is much more recent than other sources - and is the closest we will get to a development of Pentan society in the near future, in that its pretty clear on Yelm/Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant worship among them. 

I've extrapolated a bit, - but I'm sure that the Pentans have many Yelm worshippers among them and treat Yelm as a very important god, but only a minority that are entitled to by genealogy, mostly among the PHP, they call Yelm Yu-Kargzant like the Grazers, and that Kargzant is a separate god. If you wish to not believe it until the Gods book is out, sure. 

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2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I can't find the exact quote, but I belive it was said elsewhere (probably by jeff), that there's pretty much no PHP left in Pent - the remainder are what we know as the Grazelanders - and Kargzant the Little Sun is the Pentan's primary god. They don't worship Yu-Kargzant/Yelm at all.

They are few but they are present and important, they probably number about 80.000 or so of a total population of 800.000, as one of the Ten Arrows, the Julin Marsk, are said to be PHP. 

And yeah that is another theory, we have proposed 3 on this thread. Either:

-The Pentans worship only Kargzant, who is not the Sun (even though it is called the Sun God and the Sun Horse) but the Grazers worship Yu-Kargzant, who is Kargzant as Yelm (a cult that the Pentans misteriously lost but the Grazers retained somehow after centuries of living among storm and beast worshippers, or maybe it sprung out of nowhere when they arrived at DP). 

-The traditional Pentans mainly worship Kargzant as Lightfore but the PHP among them worship Yu-Kargzant (as I said, no proof of that on the Guide). 

-The Hyalorings and Chariot People followed Kargzant the Wandering Sun through the darkness, migrating and living free under the sky, while their walker former brethren of the Solar Empire cowered under a snow-covered dome. The former was proved to be the correct path, and when Kargzant and his Star Captains recovered all the parts of Yelm that had been scattered when he was murdered by Orlanth and he led the Sun again through the Sunpath, the Wheels and the Riders were rewarded the whole pelorian bowl and the weakened half-men that inhabited it. The Wheels started being the strongest, but quickly they were defeated and replaced by the Hyalorings. This was another short-lived victory, as the Hyalorings were in turn soon defeated by their Dara-Happan subjects and by the Teyalan invaders, and so they left for Pent, while also leaving in Peloria a huge mark, mainly manifested in the Berenings, who were theyalanized riders, and also the probable ancestors of both the Sairdites and the Runegate clans of Sartar. The solar cult of the Hyalorings that remained changed as they strode further from the hierarchical solar society and towards the liberal and socially mobile storm society, and ended up as Elmal, the Sun as a subordinate of the Storm, and with a structure of a typical orlanthi cult. The ones that left for Pent were the ones that refused to surrender Kargzant either to the pelorians or to the theyalans, and retained his cult as it was on the height of their power, meaning as Kargzant the Sun God. With time, after the PHP that would become the Grazers left, the Yu- morpheme was dropped, probably in opposition to the pelorians, as Yu- is part of the sacred Dara-Happan alphabet. Maybe it was dropped after the Night of Horrors, maybe way before, we can't know. 

All three theories have their points and flaws, and with current material none of the three can be proved right or wrong. 

35 minutes ago, davecake said:

What you probably should realise is that I am taking quite a bit of this from the draft of the Gods Book - which is not going to be exactly the same as what makes it to print soon, but is likely to be quite similar, and is much more recent than other sources - and is the closest we will get to a development of Pentan society in the near future, in that its pretty clear on Yelm/Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant worship among them. 

I've extrapolated a bit, - but I'm sure that the Pentans have many Yelm worshippers among them and treat Yelm as a very important god, but only a minority that are entitled to by genealogy, mostly among the PHP, they call Yelm Yu-Kargzant like the Grazers, and that Kargzant is a separate god. If you wish to not believe it until the Gods book is out, sure. 

Well, I don't know if I missed where you said that before but I definitely didn't see it, and can't possibly know things that are said in works that have not been released. If the Cults Book shows things are like you said it, then it's clear, I'm wrong, but I cannot know that can I? I was presenting a doubt using the avaliable sources, if some people have access to other sources I cannot reach then fine I guess but the only way I could accept your tale is if I blindly believed anything other people said over the sources I have, and I'm not going to do that.

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Certainly you can take the Sourcebook as agreeing there: (Page 13)

Well, that's what the Grazers say, and being that they are the only Hyalorings that the people of DP know, also what their neighboring peoples like the Sartarites, Esrolians and Tarshites believe, but that self-glorifying story of them being the "originals" is proven wrong on Six Ages: Ride the Wind, where the PHP are shown as being a deviation of the classic Hyalorings, who have herded cows since ages before, and also the Guide states about the PHP that at the Dawn "The other tribes called them the Liars, as they claimed to be the original horse people and herded only horses". And while their "weaker bc they herd cows" cousins created the biggest land empire Genertela has ever seen, humiliated the Dara Happans and Kralori and scarred the Red Moon, the almighty Grazers were being defeated by all their neighbors, confined in the poorest region of DP, and their political power was taken over by a mask of Ernalda, a goddess of the half-men, such solar power right? 

Edited by Jape_Vicho

:50-power-truth::50-sub-light::50-power-truth:

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7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm mildly surprised that no PHP other than the Grazers ever successfully found (and long-term implement) the solution "get slaves to do the forbidden work for us while we maintain our good magic". It doesn't exactly seem like a stretch.

My personal theory is that there have never been Pure Horse People as a separate group, and they've always been a smaller part of a broader society, and their initial existence was as a caste of holy people within early horse people (however we want to name this culture spread across large parts of Glorantha at the Dawn) society. And modern efforts at a true Pure Horse People require subjugation or other dependence on impure people because of that. 

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There is another quite sizable PHP group which took a loony turn, up in Erigia... They even managed to breed a carnivorous stallion and a winged mare.

There may be more of those. Pentan tribes have the opportunity to stay out of sight for long periods of time, and those without cattle can go a lot farther north than those with cattle, as cattle cannot deal with frozen-over pasture. They'd still be rivals of those keeping reindeer alongside their horses.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

a carnivorous stallion

Why would you even want this! Feeding horses is already an issue!

But of course, there's also the Black Horse Troop, so I guess this is a thing. Now I have a horrible image of these horses "grazing" on the bodies on a battlefield...

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13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Why would you even want this! Feeding horses is already an issue!

you need food for your people. If you are a pure you eat horse. but if your people cannot eat horses (because if you kill to many horses, you don't have enough horse for war and move), you need to eat cows and others animals. That is an issue.

 

so now you have a part of your horses able to eat flesh, that means you can raid your ennemy to feed them, and you let the grass for horses dedicated to feed your people.

 

no more needs to pervert your people by eating (and raising) other animals (again more grass for horses-food). you and your people are pure.

 

I m not saying the project is viable, just that "logic" can drive some leaders

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24 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

you need food for your people. If you are a pure you eat horse. but if your people cannot eat horses (because if you kill to many horses, you don't have enough horse for war and move), you need to eat cows and others animals. That is an issue.

so now you have a part of your horses able to eat flesh, that means you can raid your ennemy to feed them, and you let the grass for horses dedicated to feed your people.

no more needs to pervert your people by eating (and raising) other animals (again more grass for horses-food). you and your people are pure.

I m not saying the project is viable, just that "logic" can drive some leaders

This actually makes a shocking amount of sense! 

Plus, your enemies will likely be a bit intimidated knowing that if they die in combat against you, your horses will eat them.

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14 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Why would you even want this! Feeding horses is already an issue!

To restore the original great stature of Hippogriff, the celestial being that was mutilated and diminished by its foes.

But you bring up an interesting dilemma - the Char-un are Pure Horse Pentans, so what do they feed to the stallion? The only chattel property they own are horses or human slaves. Feeding horses to a horse would be highly un-ethical, right?

 

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

To restore the original great stature of Hippogriff, the celestial being that was mutilated and diminished by its foes.

But you bring up an interesting dilemma - the Char-un are Pure Horse Pentans, so what do they feed to the stallion? The only chattel property they own are horses or human slaves. Feeding horses to a horse would be highly un-ethical, right?

That’s how you get Mad Horse Disease, too. 

Are the horses efficient predators? In that case, you could release them to hunt on their own for times. Do the Char-Un have any tributery peoples that could pay them in, say, chickens? The steppe should have gophers or suchlike - rodents might be a mainstay of the diet.

Will the horses settle for fish?

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39 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

That’s how you get Mad Horse Disease, too. 

Are the horses efficient predators? In that case, you could release them to hunt on their own for times. Do the Char-Un have any tributery peoples that could pay them in, say, chickens? The steppe should have gophers or suchlike - rodents might be a mainstay of the diet.

Will the horses settle for fish?

So far, the Char-Un have one carnivorous stallion, and I guess they make do with long pork for the time being.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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8 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

All three theories have their points and flaws, and with current material none of the three can be proved right or wrong. 

But only one seems to be compatible with the upcoming Gods book, which has Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant as separate cults both worshipped in Pent. So this seems to be an argument there is no point in continuing. We can just wait for publication. 

8 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

if some people have access to other sources I cannot reach then fine I guess but the only way I could accept your tale is if I blindly believed anything other people said over the sources I have, and I'm not going to do that.

 
 
 

Right, and as you have just essentially said you presume that what I say is inherently not to be trusted, so why should I bother to continue any further discussion? 

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm mildly surprised that no PHP other than the Grazers ever successfully found (and long-term implemented) the solution "get slaves to do the forbidden work for us while we maintain our good magic".

That sounds rather like the Sheng Seleris empire, doesn't it? [Guide pg 364] The Bursts at the top, leading a pure magical nomad lifestyle, are demigod magical ascetics, are a tiny ruling elite. The Rays as the next rank down "...maintained a less pure nomadic lifestyle and received far less impressive magical powers as a result. They depended upon their subject peoples for their food, income, and other general sources of life." - the PHP presumably flourished under Sheng, because they could easily maintain their lifestyle this way.

And then the rank below that, the Warmed, in particular the Fires, is in part the Pentans identifying Yu-Kargzant as Yelm the ruler of the Dara Happan solar pantheon, and so making the other Solar cults implementors and instruments of that rule. Sheng I think got a lot of his power from that (and from using his Illuminated zolathi to terrify the subject cults into falling into line). I say in part, because of course there was a lot more to both Sheng's Empire and Sheng's magic than that - there are also elements of coopting Kralori mysticism and imperial magic, as well as native Pentan shamanism etc - but I think it is a lot todo with both how he conquered Peloria, and where he got a lot of his secrets that he used to create the Bursts demigods, and so successfully fight the Lunar Empire, using a lot of their own secrets against them (in addition to being able to beat them at their own mystic game frequently using Kralori knowledge).

While it wasn't Sheng's personal project (Sheng being apparently far more interested in being Emperor of Kralorela than Emperor of Dara Happa), there was a definite (unsuccessful) attempt by [Sheng's brother I think?] to become Emperor of Dara Happa, presumably reviving Jenarong rites and attempting to put Yu-Kargzant back on top. It failed, presumably because the Lunars were able to prove the Red Emperor was still Emperor somehow, but it's interesting they tried. 

7 hours ago, Eff said:

My personal theory is that there have never been Pure Horse People as a separate group, and they've always been a smaller part of a broader society, and their initial existence was as a caste of holy people within early horse people (however we want to name this culture spread across large parts of Glorantha at the Dawn) society.

 
 

Regardless of the truth of an original PHP tribe, it seems a distinctly different group to the PHP now - the current PHP all seem to be culturally and ethnically descended from the Starlight Ancestors, not the Hyalorings, and originated in the Dawn era conflict between the two peoples immediately post-Dawn, and for practical purposes have always been a priestly caste among the Kargzant people. It could easily have originated as a priestly/ruling group within the Hyalorings that then became rulers of the Starlight Ancestor peoples as well (and got pushed out of Saird etc as it became Vingkotling/Orlanthi ruled). 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is another quite sizable PHP group which took a loony turn, up in Erigia... They even managed to breed a carnivorous stallion and a winged mare.

 

Yes, of course the Char-Un split off much later, but are now another distinct PHP group. 

It is interesting that the Char-Un seem to have used the Yu-Kargzant/Yelm identification to work so effectively with the Dara Happan priests to impress even the Lunars with the Skyburn (imitation being the sincerest form of flattery) - the Skyburn is said to be done with the aid of 'Exiled priests from Yuthuppa', presumably of Solar deities like Yelm and Dayzatar, and while cooperating with Pentans would normally be unlikely, former Pentan allies seem to be have been quite easy to collaborate with the create remarkable magic feats. Interesting this is pre-Sheng, too - demonstrates, I think, that Sheng was exploiting the natural compatibility that comes from Yu-Kargzant being Yelm. 

FWIW, I think of Yu-Kargzant linguistically as being just like Orlanth Rex - a god plus a dignifying title, indicating that the Pentans don't see them as different gods. But the difference in magic etc is obviously far larger. The speculative bit, that we don't have a good answer for, is how the Pentans conceptualise this.

So taking a look at how the other parties conceputalise this: the Orlanthi thought of their Lightfore god Elmal as a quite separate being to Yelm, and at some point at least essentially must have considered him as the heir to Yelm, who took his place at the dawn (and the Dara Happans see him as an upstart Vingkotling horse god). The Yelmalions thought of their Lightfore god as a son of Yelm, but Yelm returned to life and resumed his place at the Dawn, leaving Yelmalio in perpetuity as Yelms servant with no sovereignty claim (the preferred title Count originally comes from 'companion [of the Emperor]' indicating the Yelmalio cult does not believe it has any independent claim of rulership, only as delegated from the true nobility). The vision of Monrogh was terribly convenient to the Sartar kings, as it made clear that the Elmal cult was really Yelmalio, and so had no independent claim to sovereignty (and so maybe could head a clan, but not a tribe and certainly not a kingdom). The Dara Happans thought of their Lightfore god, Antirius, as simply being a part of Yelm, a way by which mighty Yelm protected his people in the Darkness despite the inconvenience of being dead and in hell, and was simply recombined with the true Yelm at the Dawn (along with all the other inconveniently rival Solar gods like Vrimak and Enverinus/Oakfed and Berneel Arashagern, nearly eliminating their claims of supremacy as they are reduced to mere components of the Dara Happan god). To deal with the claims of Kargzant, they say that first Kargzant demonstrated his unworthiness by losing to Orlanth (more or less, managing to interpret the 'Elmal' story in a way favourable to Dara Happa), then Antirius taking over as the Lightfore god due to his superiour purity (like reclaiming his old house from a squatter), then it is all Antirius' work that leads to the true Dawn and reunification with Yelm. 

(the Dara Happans seem to be bullshitting on the whole issue of horses, btw, as it seems pretty clear that pre-Darkness Yelm was associated with birds more than horses - but its way more convenient to the new, Triplis based, Yelm cult to build their new cult giving primacy to Jenarong in Raibanth over those Kestinaddi bird guys)

So what's the Pentan version? IMO clearly they think Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant are essentially the same god but in different roles (as the god of nomads, and as Emperor), but do they think that current Yelm is really Kargzant (Kargzant was a son of Yelm, became his heir when Yelm died, then was able to take his place as Emperor and assume the various scattered powers and roles and accountrements of Yelm to take his place as Emperor), or that Kargzant was Yelm (Kargzant was, like Antirius, a part of Yelm as the true Lightfore god, that though he had conflict with Orlanth/Elmalus this merely purified him (by learning PHP rites?) and later he became Yu-Kargzant by unifying his lost parts of the self at the Dawn). It's even possible they think of this as an unknowable mystery and its both at once, or something even more mysterious. I think this makes more sense for modern Pentans who have been exposed to Sheng era mysticism, who probably changed Pentan thinking quite a bit, at least among the magical elite. I think all conceptions are compatible with Sheng's 'life is slavery' dictum, with Kargzant being a servant to the Emperor, and the Emperor being a servant to the Sun itself - and the entire rest of the world being rightfully slaves to Kargzant, despite their protestations and delusions otherwise. I think I favour the idea that the Pentans believe the Yelm of today is really Kargzant, not the same as the Yelm who died, but this is speculation - and I don't expect it to be resolved with the publication of the Gods book, though I might be surprised. I know the Gods book draft did not touch on Sheng and his innovations, and only a little about Pentan shamanism, and I'd be surprised if this changed much (the Gods book is mostly restricted to what is necessary for a Central Genertelan - Peloria, Dragon Pass, Holy Country - campaign, with material from outside that area either because the cult is universally known (Yelm, Lodril, Ernalda etc) or for oddities of the campaign period (the Wolf Pirates have brought the worship of Ygg to the Holy Country and even Dragon Pass)). 

The Pentans conceive of some of the other parts of Yelm differently as well, of course. I do think they have this concept, at least intellectually, the Jenarong dynasty was probably when a lot of it was conceptualised. I think they still think of Berneel Arashagern as the fertile part of Yu-Kargzant, but I don't think they really acknowledge it much outside fertility rites of Dendara (like the Dara Happans). IMO they think of Oakfed the wildfire rather than Enverinus the tamed sacrificial fire, and contact Oakfed shamanically (and he is fairly important to them). I think one interesting idea is that in the current era, rather than just treating Yelms Shadow part as the monstrous Kazkurtum, I think at least some of them have understood it as the Black Sun, and somehow link it to the minority Solar tribe worship of the Blood Sun.  I have no idea how they understand Vrimak/the Intellect part - I don't know of any Pentan traditions that seem very concerned with birds, except as enemies, or particularly with Intellect, for that matter, though the Celestial Eagle hills is a site for contacting Star Captains which might be a hint, or it might be something historic between the Lirenmador and the Veshtargos.

It is also worth thinking about how the era at the end of the Second Age, when Northern Pent was plagued by the demon inhabitants of city of Senbar, changed the traditional Pentan practices. Personally I think this may have been the era when the Storm tribe practices really started, with their more effective Chaos fighting powers, but that's just speculation - I don't really know how the Storm tribe got started among the Pentans, other than its rise to being a significant minority tradition that is accepted by whole tribes seems a post-Sheng thing and response to the many defeats of the Solar tribes and their gods around that period. 

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Why would you even want this! Feeding horses is already an issue!

To magically recreate HippoGriff, so your elite warriors can all have terrifying flying steeds, of course!

(the Char-Un have an aptitude for learning interesting magic  from their Lunar allies, including this sort of deep mythic magic and heroquesting)

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, davecake said:

Right, and as you have just essentially said you presume that what I say is inherently not to be trusted, so why should I bother to continue any further discussion? 

No, I must have expressed myself wrong. Once you said you are basing what you said in the draft from the Cults book I trusted what you said, there's no reason in lying here, I ment that before knowing it you (the inclussive you) were just saying things that contradicted my sources without stating yours. That I cannot believe, you might have been taking info from non-canon sources or just plainly remember wrong. There's no reason for further discussion anyway so it's ok. 

:50-power-truth::50-sub-light::50-power-truth:

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