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If a group of youths want to go raid some cattle, do they need permission from their family elders and clan chief for it? And how big a share can they keep from it, and how much do they give to the family elders and chief?

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Yes, they should get the OK from someone on the clan ring. People can get killed, and no one wants that. But I imagine unauthorized raids happen all the time.

I believe technically all the cattle goes to the chieftain. The chieftain will give some of it to the raiders, either directly or to the leader of the bloodline(s). If foraging troops or broo just took a lot of head of cattle, then maybe these new cattle are needed elsewhere. Likewise if lunar taxes are due or the clan is participating in a heroquest/ritual, the raiders may find out that they get nothing.

So there are lots of variables: need, circumstances, popularity with the chief, politics of the bloodlines, current cottar vs carl tensions, etc. Which means the GM picks something that seems reasonable and advances the story.

BTW: one of the Wind Words episodes talks about cattle raids.

Edited by Doug
Fix typos, add reference to WW podcast
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I consider youths need  permission from their bloodline leaders (the bloodline should pay if any reason) and their ring (this act is part of diplomatic game)

They can only hope to gain something (physically) for their own benefit but the chieftain could decide to keep it (for good or bad reason, with or without compensation)

 

Of course all divergence is possible but that means more or less bad impact for the clan and / or the youths

but good scenarios :

what about the youth relationship into the clan / the bloodline after a not allowed raid ?

what would happen after a wound, a death among them or among the shepherds ?

wergild, duel, outlaw, feud ?

what about their ancestors ?

How the youth will manage  if a thane (or a thane's son, kind of local opponent of the youths)  is designed to lead the read and take all the benefits (cows, reputation, etc...) ?

or blame the youths if they fail (and when the "true" fault is the leader's fault) ?

what will the youth do if after the success, the chieftain keep everything (for good or bad reason) ?

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2 hours ago, Brootse said:

If a group of youths want to go raid some cattle, do they need permission from their family elders and clan chief for it? And how big a share can they keep from it, and how much do they give to the family elders and chief?

It's wise to get one from the chief, but strictly speaking, you don't have to. Expect him to be annoyed and definitely not have your back if you screw up.

You give it all to the chief, who is expected to return much of it as gifts. Again, one of the advantages of not annoying him.

57 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what would happen after a wound, a death among them or among the shepherds ?

wergild, duel, outlaw, feud ?

Wergild or feud, yes. Something has gone seriously wrong if a shepherd has died.

I'm currently GM:ing the scenario from the quickstart, and there will be so much legal fallout from it that the scenario doesn't discuss.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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35 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's wise to get one from the chief, but strictly speaking, you don't have. Expect him to be annoyed and definitely not have your back if you screw up.

Young hot-headed Orlanthi are proverbially wise.

If you kill someone while you're rustling cattle, you've seriously screwed up.

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16 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Young hot-headed Orlanthi are proverbially wise.

"No-one can make me not do anything!"

And hey, you can always ask. What's the worst thing that could happen, that he says no?

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41 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Wergild or feud, yes. Something has gone seriously wrong if a shepherd has died.

I'm currently GM:ing the scenario from the quickstart, and there will be so much legal fallout from it that the scenario doesn't discuss.

In my Colymar campaign bloodfeud is one of the themes, and the antagonist in the Quickstart scenario was from the feuding family, and the dead herders were from the pcs' family.

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30 minutes ago, Brootse said:

In my Colymar campaign bloodfeud is one of the themes, and the antagonist in the Quickstart scenario was from the feuding family, and the dead herders were from the pcs' family.

I'm also using various fraught encounters (Cattle Raid from the GM pack was another) between the PC clan and another one to slowly build towards a feud.

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Just now, Akhôrahil said:

I'm also using various fraught encounters (Cattle Raid from the GM pack was another) between the PC clan and another one to slowly build towards a feud.

Hah, that one almost caused a feud in my campaign, since the players went all murder hobo. It was settled with wergild, but they earned a few enemies still.

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5 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Hah, that one almost caused a feud in my campaign, since the players went all murder hobo. It was settled with wergild, but they earned a few enemies still.

If I were an Orlanthi, I would like to invent a Taser spell, because man, it sucks to kill people!

My players decided that since killing just three opponents would be more expensive than all the cattle were worth, and that was assuming they won, they went full orate and animal lore instead, rolling really well too.

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2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

If I were an Orlanthi, I would like to invent a Taser spell, because man, it sucks to kill people!

My players decided that since killing just three opponents would be more expensive than all the cattle were worth, and that was assuming they won, they went full orate and animal lore instead, rolling really well too.

Smart move! As for the tazer, Demoralize and Befuddle are quite useful for that purpose, and get you POW increase chances too. Of course they have a limited duration.

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4 hours ago, Brootse said:

If a group of youths want to go raid some cattle, do they need permission from their family elders and clan chief for it?

In addition to the other answers, they don't have to ask for permission.

However, if they don't ask and they get into trouble, they could be in deep doodah.

If they ask and the chief says "yes" and they get caught, the chief might deny all knowledge and they are then in deep doodah.

If they ask and the chief says "no" and they do it anyway and get caught, they are then in deep doodah.

If they ask and the chief says "no" and they do it anyway and get caught, they need to make the chief a big present of some of the cattle.

If they ask and the chief says "no" and they don't do it, they might be ridiculed by their peers and are then in deep doodah.

If they are caught, they could be in deep doodah.

If they kill someone, they could be in deep doodah.

If they don't bring anything back, they could be in deep doodah.

If they don't give the important people a big enough share, they could be in deep doodah.

4 hours ago, Brootse said:

And how big a share can they keep from it, and how much do they give to the family elders and chief?

Get them to make a Customs roll to find out.

Generally, I'd say give half away as bribes and keep half. also, slaughter one and have a big feast, as everyone likes a good feast.

If they are too greedy or tight-fisted then people won't respect them. 

If they give too much away then people think they are soft and are buying attention.

Either way and they are in deep doodah.

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20 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

another point is the sharing in the group itself. What I understand is the leader* of the youths get all the chieftain wants, and after the leader decides who has what. I believe there is some customs and standard sharing.

Am I right ?

 

* that means : there is a leader

Possibly. The leader might simply be the person taking the initiative. Or they might be a more senior person from the bloodline providing the majority of the raiders, or possibly a thane of the chief who authorized the raid, or something like that. Overall, I assume that there is a leader, but obviously this is no organized military unit. The leader is an ad hoc position, with limited ability to enforce their authority, and mainly through personal skill, bravery, family relations and general social standing, etc. 

As for shares... My guess is that bloodlines or family units/steads are awarded cattle, so that if your son goes on a raid and it's reported by the more senior parties that he carried himself well and so on, then there might be more coming your way than if you're a family that provided no one. The awarded cattle might to towards paying a bride price or a dowry.

Presumably, there might be other ways to reward the raiders too, such as a fancy new spear or a shirt, or some chickens or pigs or something. Either in addition to the cattle or in lieu of one, if they went somewhere else. 

Maybe there's a formal shares formula somewhere in the books, but that does sound overly rigid for the Orlanthi, imho. Seems more like it'd be on a case by case basis depending on what people want or need, with different family and personal interested intersecting. 

I'd expect it all to be the topic of intense scrutiny by the cattle-obsessed Orlanthi, and the topic of discussions for a long time, especially if someone feels slighted. 

It's also one place where youths can make a name for themselves, both in terms of impressing their seniors, as well as possible wives, assuming that the news reach neighboring, friendly clans who they have marriage exchanges with. There's a potential whole courting plot here, if you want. Cattle and romance!

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Barbarian Adventures has the following stations for a cattle raid (I believe this is far and away the most detailed description anywhere, it's four pages):

  1. Gathering the Band. And to answer the question about the leader, yes: "The first thing a raiding band needs is a leader, usually an aspiring warrior. A typical raiding party is about a dozen men."
  2. Getting Permission: "Such a permission is not strictly required, but any responsible clansman tries to get approval ... Since raiding is expected of young Orlanthi, seeking permission is usually a formality"
  3. Preparations and Sacrifice. Sacrifice to Finovan.
  4. The Stealthy Approach
  5. Stealing the Herd
  6. Retreat and Ambush
  7. A Hero's Reward. Give all the stuff to the chieftain. "Since generosity is an Orlanthi virtue, the chieftain should return much of of the cattle and loot to the band—favoring the brave and bold first. Even the youngest raiders should receive something if they acquitted themselves well. A feast in honor of the raiders is essential!" (I would note that since the chieftain wasn't there, boasting is critical here.)

It also includes a whole slew of possible complications to make it into a full adventure. Great stuff! The Blood Feud part by Ian Cooper is even better. Very underrated book, IMO.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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47 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

another point is the sharing in the group itself. What I understand is the leader* of the youths get all the chieftain wants, and after the leader decides who has what. I believe there is some customs and standard sharing.

Yes, the leader divides the raiders' share of the spoils.

47 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

* that means : there is a leader

If there isn't they are in deep doodah.

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9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Barbarian Adventures has the following stations for a cattle raid (I believe this is far and away the most detailed description anywhere, it's four pages):

  1. Gathering the Band. And to answer the question about the leader, yes: "The first thing a raiding band needs is a leader, usually an aspiring warrior. A typical raiding party is about a dozen men."
  2. Getting Permission: "Such a permission is not strictly required, but any responsible clansman tries to get approval ... Since raiding is expected of young Orlanthi, seeking permission is usually a formality"
  3. Preparations and Sacrifice. Sacrifice to Finovan.
  4. The Stealthy Approach
  5. Stealing the Herd
  6. Retreat and Ambush
  7. A Hero's Reward. Give all the stuff to the chieftain. "Since generosity is an Orlanthi virtue, the chieftain should return much of of the cattle and loot to the band—favoring the brave and bold first. Even the youngest raiders should receive something if they acquitted themselves well. A feast in honor of the raiders is essential!" (I would note that since the chieftain wasn't there, boasting is critical here.)

It also includes a whole slew of possible complications to make it into a full adventure. Great stuff! The Blood Feud part by Ian Cooper is even better. Very underrated book, IMO.

Gonna be honest, pretty happy my above guesses were as close as they were.

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10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:
12 hours ago, soltakss said:

If there isn't they are in deep doodah.

can I say, if they are alive they are in deep doodah ?

Of course.

Cattle raiding is so full of potential doodah that it is amazing how it happens.

But, it happens a lot, so people either don't care or are prepared to take the risk of deep doodah.

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There is a quite good presentation of cattle raids, their customs and obligations and so forth in HQ The Coming Storm (vol. 2: Eleven Lights). But basically, yes, as said above, the rule is to ask the clan chief permission. Then, that's what crawlers do... 😉

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2 hours ago, soltakss said:

But, it happens a lot, so people either don't care or are prepared to take the risk of deep doodah.

There may be a gameplay bias here as well - I would imagine there are cattle raids that just go nice and smooth from beginning to end, but those aren’t the ones the PCs run into during play...

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On 1/20/2021 at 1:37 PM, Doug said:

Yes, they should get the OK from someone on the clan ring. People can get killed, and no one wants that. But I imagine unauthorized raids happen all the time.

I believe technically all the cattle goes to the chieftain. The chieftain will give some of it to the raiders, either directly or to the leader of the bloodline(s). If foraging troops or broo just took a lot of head of cattle, then maybe these new cattle are needed elsewhere. Likewise if lunar taxes are due or the clan is participating in a heroquest/ritual, the raiders may find out that they get nothing.

So there are lots of variables: need, circumstances, popularity with the chief, politics of the bloodlines, current cottar vs carl tensions, etc. Which means the GM picks something that seems reasonable and advances the story.

BTW: one of the Wind Words episodes talks about cattle raids.

Was it on your podcast that I heard that it is uncommon to bring shields on cattle raids unless your intention is to actually kill people?

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41 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

Was it on your podcast that I heard that it is uncommon to bring shields on cattle raids unless your intention is to actually kill people?

Not my podcast, although I'll be glad to bask in their glory.

I don't remember hearing that. And Glorantha is a dangerous place. I think everyone is heavily armed whenever leaving the tula. Who knows what bandits and monsters lurk in the wilds.

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