Great Compromise

[Nick Brooke]

It's orthodox, ever since Cults of Terror:

Quote

Prevalent belief says that Kajabor was killed by Wakboth, leaving the world defiler to face the Storm Bull and the god of entropy to face the forces of the dead. This theory has much strength, since the mundane world (reconstructed later) was usually held to be the origin of immorality, while the combination of entropy and existence seem to synthesize into the God Time, who later rules the cosmos.

But people who think there is only one "true" version of any given myth are always mistaken. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. Meaning is mutable, "time" is meaningless, gods are beyond mortal comprehension, and asking "how many arms does X have?" is blind-men-and-elephant, gods-of-the-donkeys level daftness.

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, MHanretty said:

There are accounts of Kajabor being the form of the devil caught in the Arachne Solara’s net, with his appearance in the underworld due his defeat and death at the hands of Wakboth. 

Interesting. Kajabor killed by Wakboth. Which accounts? 

[MHanretty]

10 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Interesting. Kajabor killed by Wakboth. Which accounts? 

Nick’s answered that question just above your post.

Out of curiosity, when were the details of The Lightbringers Quest (and the Compromise) first published? 

Edited September 5, 2021 by MHanretty

[soltakss]

34 minutes ago, MHanretty said:

Out of curiosity, when were the details of The Lightbringers Quest (and the Compromise) first published? 

It was definitely there in Cults of Terror, but might have been in a Wyrms Footnotes before that.

Wyrms Footnotes 4 says "TIME was born in Hell, where the shadows of Chaos reigned and held the heart of the universe in its greasy paw. All of the universe was in confusion, elements blundered amidst each other, and devils ran amok slaying and kidnapping gods and mortals alike, sending them into the formless void of entropy. When the Lightbringers entered the underworld and completed their great tasks, they forged a cosmic pact which bound all entities, living or dead, spiritual or physical, pure or unholy, intelligent or inert, into the Great Compromise. No Beings who were responsible for the creation of the world were exempt from this universal synthesis. In the pact all the deities agreed to immediately settle their senseless and destructive wars which had precipitated the very chaos they now fought against. They agreed to accept a common ground between them, and the deities warring over any ground would now share responsibility for the protection of that realm. The gods swore their oaths and vowed their Beings to uphold their present status in the universe binding themselves to the thus-created spiritual matrix of the New Age.".

 

[MHanretty]

Thank you. So, in older tellings, the Lightbringers met Kajabor rather than Wakboth.

I wonder if the variation of the LBQ, with Wakboth as The Devil, was written to inject a real-world sort of ambiguity to the story which, as Nick points out, is typical of authentic mythology. Alternatively, did it come from a genuine mix-up or even an attempt to streamline the concept of the Devil in Gloranthan materials? Either way, I’m glad it exists.

Edited September 5, 2021 by MHanretty

[jajagappa]

15 hours ago, MHanretty said:

So, in older tellings, the Lightbringers met Kajabor rather than Wakboth.

Actually, the oldest tellings have both Kajabor and Wakboth being eaten by Arachne Solara.  I think I noted that upthread.

[Eff]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Actually, the oldest tellings have both Kajabor and Wakboth being eaten by Arachne Solara.  I think I noted that upthread.

Perhaps this denotes a metafictional sating of her appetite, going from feasting on the diabolical buffet to contenting herself with one or the other. At some point she may end up only needing a snack. 

[simonh]

She is the devourer. She consumes all that is ensnared in her web, and her web ensnares the cosmos.

[Darius West]

On 9/4/2021 at 9:42 PM, soltakss said:

It's a myth. Myths can be contradictory. Storm Bull saw the Devil pinned beneath the Block, other deities saw the Devil appear, be trapped in the Net and be eaten by Arachne Solara. Maybe it wasn't the same Devil, maybe it was.

Breaking Myths down into a series of Facts is what starts heresies, splits and different sects. 

"We know that this happened this way, your belief that it happened that way" is the start of dogma and rigidness. 

Better to stick with the Myths and their many possible interpretations.

The Block is unlike other mythological sites.  It and the story which go with it are pretty unequivocal.  Nothing screams fact like a million tons of Truestone sitting on Wakboth who is still trying to seep out into the local environment.  I think evidence like that would make scientists into true believers in the Storm Bull.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Darius West

[Joerg]

"It is widely believed" is not consecutive prove, but count me in with the believers.

The better evidence for the identity of the baddy under the Block are the Pieces of the Devil which lurk in the Devil's Marsh. Cacodemons are descended from Wakboth, that left hand doesn't look much like Kajabor either.

Also, it was a personal grudge between the Bull and Wakboth, for Ragnaglar.

[simonh]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

The Block is unlike other mythological sites.  It and the story which go with it are pretty unequivocal.  Nothing screams fact like a million tons of Truestone sitting on Wakboth who is still trying to seep out into the local environment.  I think evidence like that would make scientists into true believers in the Storm Bull.

Storm Bull Guide: "Behold the Block, hurled at the Devil by our god the Storm Bull"

Pelorian Tourist: "Ah, I don't believe your superstitions, it probably just fell on him by accident"

Storm Bull Guide: "Follow."

Takes the tourist on a walk round to another side of the block and points up at a massive 300m long hand print.

[Eff]

I rather suspect that if an educated Kralori fellow went on a visit to the Block, they would probably conclude that this was where Vayobi defeated Sekever and could also point to various proofs of this fact in and around the Block.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

The Block is unlike other mythological sites.  It and the story which go with it are pretty unequivocal.  Nothing screams fact like a million tons of Truestone sitting on Wakboth who is still trying to seep out into the local environment.  I think evidence like that would make scientists into true believers in the Storm Bull.

the only evidences I see are :

there is a big block of truestone

there is a big source of chaos under

 

now... is it an accident, an act of storm bull, or something else... that is a matter of conviction.

What about another air deity with a bull skull on its head ? or this unknown broo with a bull head... or maybe the watchers made a mistake it was not a bull head?

Same for the "thing" under : is it wakboth , another god, or only a source if chaos

 

but the simpliest way is probably the good one, so it should be Wakboth and Storm Bull.

A good confirmation should be an army of lankhoring using reconstruction until finding the event. Is it possible before time ?

 

[jajagappa]

43 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

there is a big block of truestone

there is a big source of chaos under

This is a case where it may be useful to look at the earliest available source rather than the later God Learner speculations about the Devil.

From Nomad Gods, p.58: "After the Devil was pinned to the Earth by the Rock, his influence still permeated the region with its vile effects.  Waha the Butcher sought to diffuse this threat, and so dug the Good Canal, diverting all of a river from its path to the Rock.  He then commanded the river and its creatures to devour the Devil and take it away to the sea.  It did, but by eroding the Devil, the river became so polluted that the river was shamed and tried to hide by burying into the Earth.  The Earth rejected it, forcing it to the surface where possible.  These are the present locations of the numerous Marshes.  The ugly creatures which inhabit those filthy places are the half-digested portions of the polluted river. 

And p.59: "The Devil's Hand: This is the only portion of the One Evil that survived physically intact from before the Gods Age.... It was outside of the stone's impact, and was consequently not devoured by the river but dropped off and found refuge in the marshes.  It is so alien that our concepts of Intelligence, function, or purpose have no meaning in relation to it."

Also p.59: "Cacodemon: This entity seems to contain some of the intelligence of the previous Devil, for it functions quite like a normal physically-oriented Demon of the world.  It is not magical and is more like a huge monster than a Spirit."

The general sequence seems to be:

• The Block crushed the Devil, and only the Hand was not crushed.
• Waha has the Good Canal devour what remains. 
• Some parts (e.g. some intelligence) still escaped into the surrounding area.

Would the Devil reemerge if you removed the Block?  Who knows...

Did sufficient quantities of the Devil get devoured to satisfy the condition that it died and some part of it went to Hell?  (Assuming that crushing the Devil wasn't enough to send part or all of its "soul", if that can be used in reference to the Devil.)  I don't see any reason to disagree despite the God Learner stories trying to separate Wakboth from Kajabor.

[soltakss]

"The deities trapped The Devil and Arachne Solara ate it, giving birth to Time".

"But, who was the Devil?"

"The Devil was the Devil".

"But, was it Kajabor or Wakboth?"

"Yes".

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by soltakss

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

"The deities trapped The Devil and Arachne Solara ate it, giving birth to Time".

"But, who was the Devil?"

"The Devil was the Devil".

"But, was it Kajabor or Wakboth?"

"Yes".

"Is Eris true?"
"Everything is true."
"Even false things?"
"Even false things are true."
"How can that be?"
"I don't know man, I didn't do it."

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, soltakss said:

"The deities trapped The Devil and Arachne Solara ate it, giving birth to Time".

"But, who was the Devil?"

"The Devil was the Devil".

"But, was it Kajabor or Wakboth?"

"Yes".

 

Sry. Kajabor=/=Wakboth.  

Edited September 8, 2021 by Darius West

[Darius West]

17 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

now... is it an accident, an act of storm bull, or something else... that is a matter of conviction. What about another air deity with a bull skull on its head ? or this unknown broo with a bull head... or maybe the watchers made a mistake it was not a bull head?

Ragnaglar is generally depicted with a goat head.  Besides, this is all a moot point, you can still meet the Eternal Battle on the Plains of Prax if the whole giant block of truestone with chaos seeping out from under it isn't enough.  This is all old territory to the God Learners and their monomyth.  Kajabor is not the same deity as Wakboth.  They aren't the same for hero quest purposes.  They aren't just some "bad man" stand-in for the Summons of Evil ritual.  They are on a whole different level, and they are not the same as each other.  Wakboth is the god of evil.  Kajabor is the god of entropy.  They are not equivalent.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Ragnaglar is generally depicted with a goat head.  Besides, this is all a moot point, you can still meet the Eternal Battle on the Plains of Prax if the whole giant block of truestone with chaos seeping out from under it isn't enough.  This is all old territory to the God Learners and their monomyth.  Kajabor is not the same deity as Wakboth.  They aren't the same for hero quest purposes.  They aren't just some "bad man" stand-in for the Summons of Evil ritual.  They are on a whole different level, and they are not the same as each other.  Wakboth is the god of evil.  Kajabor is the god of entropy.  They are not equivalent.

I agree (well in fact, I have not enough knowledge to "value" my agreement ^^ ).

My point was only about "evidence", not about the lore / canon / etc ...

Note that is the same about the Eternal Battle, the experience "lived" by people (heroes ?) joining the eternal battle may be different each time or at least understood differently. Witness are not always reliable to prove something and as heroquesting allows people to do a lot of different little things and not only "reproduce" exactly the same acts that is for me very difficult to prove anything about gods

the gloranthan character*, (not the player/GM) can only trust those who know (but those who know know only what tradition and their own belief/experience told them)

again my point is about evidence, not about lore

 

* if gloranthan character are able to follow a "true logic" ... not sure at all they exist in fact (even LM or western "sorcerer")

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 9/1/2021 at 9:57 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Fighting the impossible fight is right up their alley.

'Making an absolute cockup of everything, like their god, is right up their alley.'

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 9/8/2021 at 8:03 AM, Darius West said:

Sry. Kajabor=/=Wakboth.  

For almost everyone in Glorantha there is absolutely no difference. Or if you want to be absolutely clear, you could, just about, get a cigarette paper between them. Gloranthans don't sit upon high being able to view the world's deities with our understanding.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

For almost everyone in Glorantha there is absolutely no difference. Or if you want to be absolutely clear, you could, just about, get a cigarette paper between them. Gloranthans don't sit upon high being able to view the world's deities with our understanding.

ok but let's do some exegesis on the meaning of the narrative that Wakboth slew Kajabor! If they are the same, what is this meaning? Does it demonstrate the tainting of Chaos by Creation, making dead Kajabor the Death rune form of Chaos?

[Eff]

17 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

ok but let's do some exegesis on the meaning of the narrative that Wakboth slew Kajabor! If they are the same, what is this meaning? Does it demonstrate the tainting of Chaos by Creation, making dead Kajabor the Death rune form of Chaos?

It's mirroring the falling-out between the conspirators against Yelm (Murharzarm edition), (or rather the Glorious Reascent provided a prequel civil war between victorious divine rebels) and Humakt slaying Orlanth in the "Sword Story", so if we take it as true that they're the same entity, it perhaps becomes a mocking puppet-show of the gods' own actions and how they've doomed the world. 

[dumuzid]

13 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

ok but let's do some exegesis on the meaning of the narrative that Wakboth slew Kajabor! If they are the same, what is this meaning? Does it demonstrate the tainting of Chaos by Creation, making dead Kajabor the Death rune form of Chaos?

I think it marks the death of the 'innocence' of Chaos, if that makes sense

Kajabor is closer to the original form of Chaos, the force that returns to the void all the stuff the Chaosium vomits into reality.  Wakboth seems to be that same force corrupted by interaction with the world.  Kajabor destroys without remorse or passion, just by being; Wakboth does things, horrible things, and he enjoys his business.  Wakboth killing Kajabor is a way for him to try to destroy the way back to that older, less sadistic version of Chaos, and make his version the only one.  Kajabor + Arachne Solara creating Time keeps Kajabor's form active in post-Gods War Glorantha, but it seems to me that Wakboth's form is the dominant one among actively Chaotic powers and beings within Time.  Not even Chaos can truly go home again, outside maybe the gullet of a true dragon, because Wakboth burned it down out of greed and spite.

[mfbrandi]

26 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Wakboth slew Kajabor! If they are the same, what is this meaning?

Quote

The mystics claim that the dragon-powers manifested themselves in the void by becoming committed [to] and entangled with the world which was yet to come, and in those actions created the barrier shimmering between the perfect void and our understanding of it. — CoT, p. 11

Try this on for size (it is not holy writ): the self-slaying of Kajabor by Wakboth “echoes” the original draconic Utuma; it is a dismemberment necessary for the “entanglement” of Chaos/Entropy in the world to come in the form of Time. The Ritual of the Net recapitulates, continues, or just is the creation of the world. No wonder there is such a ruckus about which Devil is in the Net.

Can we add to this that the notion of Wakboth (the ultimate evil) is the barrier in our understanding between us and the perfect Void/Chaos?

So the OG dragon is both the monstrous serpentine Devil and the Void that sacrifices itself — Nothing becoming Something (Chaos —> Cosmos) — that we might exist at all and to which ultimately we must return … until the next (or is it the same?) go-round in the most capacious cosmic cycle.

Now I will shake the kinks out of my tail and get back to my levitation practice.