Consequences for Killing Major Named NPCs

[John Biles]

1 minute ago, ZedAlpha said:

oh god, if this timeline turns the Hero Wars into the Monster Wars...

I do have to note that in King of Sartar, one of the stages of the Lunar Empire is the *Monster Empire*.  While this is probably meant to be 'rule by Chaos', I like the idea of King Ghidorah-expy as Emperor of Dara Happa and the Lunars.

 

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

oh god, if this timeline turns the Hero Wars into the Monster Wars...

”Deploy All Monsters!”

And I mean, the Lunars already bring their bat...

Edited February 3, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[ZedAlpha]

that tears it, that's totally the direction I'll take this campaign if I have enough time. 

[ZedAlpha]

also, there is something innately mythical about how Mothra is summoned by a pair of fairy twins to safeguard an isolated island tribe, and how she reincarnates. 

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

also, there is something innately mythical about how Mothra is summoned by a pair of fairy twins to safeguard an isolated island tribe, and how she reincarnates. 

One of the East Isles has a Cthulhu.

[ZedAlpha]

full disclosure: I'm autistic, Kaiju films are a Special Interest (I always capitalize it for emphasis) of mine, and I can and will go on for hours. At length. Whether anyone wants me to or not. About how much I love giant monster movies, even the crappy ones. The realization that I can turn this into a King of the Monsters campaign has made me ecstatic. 

[Scorus]

On 2/1/2021 at 7:32 AM, Jeff said:

If you decide you want to permanently kill off one of the five main figures in the setting, you need to decide what that means. And at that point, you are off the grid. Your Glorantha Will Vary to the point where the published material will provide you very little support or guidance.

Unless you go with the predestined line, you are off the grid. The only question is how far. But if your players know the story then best to get off early and often!

[ZedAlpha]

only one of us knows all teh story, but none of us like playing in settings where Big IMportant NPCs do all the major stuff and PCs are just in the background here and there. Maybe.

[jajagappa]

38 minutes ago, Scorus said:

Unless you go with the predestined line, you are off the grid.

The predestined line is likely to only cover one particular pathway.  I think there will be plenty of room for many of us to go "off the grid" 🙂 and still fit right into the overarching setting.

[John Biles]

4 hours ago, ZedAlpha said:

also, there is something innately mythical about how Mothra is summoned by a pair of fairy twins to safeguard an isolated island tribe, and how she reincarnates. 

I have to note that Glorantha is riddled with Twin heroes/heroines/gods/goddesses who might be figured into this, like the sibling deities of Caladraland or the Twin Dynasty of Tarsh (admittedly dead, but the grave is no bar to the call in Glorantha.)

 

[ZedAlpha]

a lot of myths have sacred/holy/unholy/lucky/otherwise magical twins as part of them. oh wow, that could work, though. The Bearkillers, after rescuing the White Bear God (and securing the Three Step Isled for Esrolia), are sent to Monster Island to return a magical treasure (the monster eggs) to its home--it's said that whoever does so will gain the blessing of the gods who live there. 

When they get to the islands, they find. I don't know, a tribe of merfolk battling a group of treasure hunters seeking to plunder the island, who have already kidnapped the twin priestesses of the Giant Non-Copyright-Infringing Butterfly Goddess. 

The locals will guide them to their goddess's temple should they rescue the priestesses: cue a trek through the jungle, dodging dinosaurs, giant insects, and other god-monsters. Should they survive, the Butterfly Queen of Monster Island can help them hitch a ride to Gernetela just in time for the Lunar counterattack to come down on Sartar like a hammer. Harrek won't around to kill Jar-Eel, but maybe the massed might of Monster Island's kaiju can turn the tide at the Battle of Heroes. 

Or maybe the Battle won't happen because the ice gods of Valind's Glacier will be making war on the Empire from the Northwest? I'm not even sure if I want to have the Battle of Heroes in the past relative to the events of the campaign or not. 

[Darius West]

22 hours ago, John Biles said:

Eh, if the PCs of a game can't change anything, they might as well just kill themselves.

There is something called egregious munchkinery...

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Darius West

[ZedAlpha]

what.

[Ladygolem]

19 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There is something called egregious munchkinery...

 

Munchkinry is trying to abuse the rules to inflate stats or do silly or unreasonable things - a far cry from just wishing for some agency in their own character's story! One disrupts the building of narrative - the other strengthens it.

[Darius West]

35 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

Munchkinry is trying to abuse the rules to inflate stats or do silly or unreasonable things - a far cry from just wishing for some agency in their own character's story! One disrupts the building of narrative - the other strengthens it.

So... Killing a superhero is about the same as killing a deity... but that's not egregious munchkinery...?  Harrek likely has skills in the 1000% range, and the literal power of an arctic bear god, not to mention a crew of the most dangerous personal retainers in Glorantha.  But yeah, you can just kill him.  That's not a colossal to impossible undertaking.  This is a guy who can personally slaughter a couple of the best lunar regiments a day, but you seriously think that it isn't unreasonable to kill him with ordinary characters?  Harrek is basically the Marvel Superhero Wolverine, but with more power than Thor and Doctor Strange thrown in for good measure.  If he went up against an M1A1 Abrhams Tank regiment, he'd win.  Even Jar-Eel the Razoress can't kill him, and she's a goddess incarnate, but your players are going to do it no probs.  Let me say it again EGREGIOUS MUNCHKINERY.  

Edited February 4, 2021 by Darius West

[ZedAlpha]

I've had munchkins and powergamers in the games I run before. My players aren't that, we all just like yes-anding each other into ridiculous superheroic shenanigans when it comes to our fantasy games.

With that in mind, we figured out a way that seems fair to all of us to give the party a chance--not a certainty, mind you, a chance--to survive going up against Harrek and win. We all had fun figuring that out. This thread isn't "can we" but "what happens next." The "can we" part has already been decided. 

Do you have any ideas about what fun new directions I could steer the campaign afterwards? Other folks are coming up with some cool ideas that I'm stealing wholeheartedly (thank you all by the way). 

Edited February 4, 2021 by ZedAlpha

[ZedAlpha]

My job as a good GM, and I hope I'm a good GM is to: 

• Present a fun world for the players to create interesting characters with interesting stories in, and get the players excited in the setting. 
• Come up with a neat plot for the players to explore their characters' stories in.
• Give the players a chance, however small, to succeed at their chosen goals. This doesn't mean 'get everything they want,' or 'let them succeed automatically.' 

My players decided almost immediately in our character creation/setting explanation Session 0 that what they wanted to do was avenge Esrolia after it and the Holy Country have been ravaged by the Wolf Pirates. To that end, they decided that Harrek the Berserk must die. 

They did a heroquest (a very difficult heroquest that left them fugitives and one of them hopelessly insane) last session that gave them a slim chance of surviving a murder attempt against Harrek. That's all. I'm going to let them have this chance.

[soltakss]

49 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So... Killing a superhero is about the same as killing a deity... but that's not egregious munchkinery...?  Harrek likely has skills in the 1000% range, and the literal power of an arctic bear god, not to mention a crew of the most dangerous personal retainers in Glorantha.  But yeah, you can just kill him.  That's not a colossal to impossible undertaking.  This is a guy who can personally slaughter a couple of the best lunar regiments a day, but you seriously think that it isn't unreasonable to kill him with ordinary characters?  Harrek is basically the Marvel Superhero Wolverine, but with more power than Thor and Doctor Strange thrown in for good measure.  If he went up against an M1A1 Abrhams Tank regiment, he'd win.  Even Jar-Eel the Razoress can't kill him, and she's a goddess incarnate, but your players are going to do it no probs.  Let me say it again EGREGIOUS MUNCHKINERY.  

I have said it before and I'll say it again - Taking on people like Harrek can have nothing to do with power-gaming or munchkinnery.

If you have a high-level game where you explore HeroQuesting and becoming Heroes then there is a level-progression: Lay Member, Initiate, Rune Level, Hero, Super Hero. Why can't PCs follow that progression and become Heroes and super Heroes? If they become Super Heroes, why can't they face off against and hope to defeat people like Harrek or Jar-Eel?

Yanafal Tarnils and Arkat both became Super Heroes before they became deities. Sheng Seleris is probably a super hero, but with shamanic powers. 

So, there is nothing intrinsically wring with this.

Sure, some people like to sneer and make snidey remarks about SuperRuneQuest and munchkinnery, but I find the best way to do this is over a fifteen year weekly campaign where you explore HeroQuesting and what it means to be a Hero. 

[Darius West]

41 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

This thread isn't "can we" but "what happens next." The "can we" part has already been decided. 

Well, the simple answer is that Harrek will either bring himself back from the dead, or his crewmates will do so via a healer.  You might have some luck trying to lock him in a Lunar Hell, but really I pity the Lunar Hell's guardians more than I pity Harrek in such a case.  I think that killing Orlanth by taking Whitewall was easier than what your players are proposing.  In the unlikely event that your players have Sartarite characters, they will be considered traitors and cast from their cults and their clans for the attempt, if not the actual success.

As for the political ramifications of Harrek's death, it would mean that Sartar would lose quickly, unless Argrath could keep Gonn Orta in the field and be lucky enough to somehow kill Jar-Eel together, or perhaps she had an unlucky episode with a spell of mass destruction like a dragon burn, or the Earthshakers.  For the most part, she'll live and Sartar will fail.

 

[ZedAlpha]

Alright, thanks for your opinion. Any other ideas about where the story could go that isn't immediately "Good guys lose, bad guys win, the end, you fucked up?"

[Darius West]

2 minutes ago, soltakss said:

If you have a high-level game where you explore HeroQuesting and becoming Heroes then there is a level-progression: Lay Member, Initiate, Rune Level, Hero, Super Hero. Why can't PCs follow that progression and become Heroes and super Heroes? If they become Super Heroes, why can't they face off against and hope to defeat people like Harrek or Jar-Eel?

Well of course you can... but isn't that the very definition of egregious munchkinery?  I mean, the fact is that PCs can't really follow that line of progression because it would take a decade IRL of legitimate skill increase rolls after weekly sessions to get to 400% in a major skill, and most games don't last that long.

[ZedAlpha]

First off, we're playing HeroQuest, not RuneQuest. Second of all, we don't have a decade, because this campaign was designed to be a short-ish break from our regular Mage: The Ascension campaign. Third, if all of us are having fun, what does it matter? Not like we're going to be playing in your regular game, no doubt wrecking you and your players' senses of immersion with how comic book-y we like things to be at our game.

[soltakss]

6 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I mean, the fact is that PCs can't really follow that line of progression because it would take a decade IRL of legitimate skill increase rolls after weekly sessions to get to 400% in a major skill, and most games don't last that long.

Mine do.

Also, HeroQuesting is a game-changer in some respects.

[soltakss]

2 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

Third, if all of us are having fun, what does it matter?

That is the important thing.

2 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

Not like we're going to be playing in your regular game, no doubt wrecking you and your players' senses of immersion with how comic book-y we like things to be at our game.

A lot of people love telling us how we are not playing the game properly.

After all, I have only been playing for 39 years, so what do I know?

[ZedAlpha]

I've been playing various RPGs since I was six years old. I might not have as much linear-time experience as some of y'all, but I've got as much subjective experience, maybe more than some of you.