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11 minutes ago, soltakss said:

The trouble is that Belintar is only interested in the Holy Country.

There is the slight matter of the fleet to Teshnos which then gets sunk by the Kralori after which Belintar renounces foreign conquest.  I always felt that was a bit strange.

During the invasion of Sartar, two armies were sent from the Holy Country.  One could be passed of as being from the Volsaxi and so not Belintar's responsibility but I doubt that the Volsaxi had the capacity to send two armies.  

I also see that in 1591 ST, Belintar secretly aided Sartar against a Lunar Invasion (Guide p240) which is quyite strange.  Why be secret about it?  The Lunar Empire can hardly complain to the United Nations about breaches of neutrality*.   Jeff's recent notes suggested the Opening changed a lot of things in the Holy Country and the secrecy of the aid may be because Belintar was breaking strong-stated policy, fel thtta he had to but was unwilling to make an open breach with past policy.

*I should point out that the neutrality was obviously very important to Belintar as he makes it a condition of an alliance with Old Tarsh.  There's also mention of several invasions in this period (probably Maniria, Prax and Jab but not the Beast Peoples nor the Grazers as per RQ Companion p30).

 

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Prodigy of Belintar and Valira Delainaeo.  This is noted in the Guide p.142: "These included the Esrolian noblewomen Valira, appointed by Belintar and bearing his special knowledge" and "Dormal himsel

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3 hours ago, metcalph said:

There is the slight matter of the fleet to Teshnos which then gets sunk by the Kralori after which Belintar renounces foreign conquest.  I always felt that was a bit strange.

Maybe that is why Belintar is not currently interested in events outside the Holy Country.

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

During the invasion of Sartar, two armies were sent from the Holy Country.  One could be passed of as being from the Volsaxi and so not Belintar's responsibility but I doubt that the Volsaxi had the capacity to send two armies.  

Maybe the people of Sartar had a mutual-defense treaty with the Holy Country. Although Sartar and Belintar were rivals, it doesn't mean that the Holy Country and kingdom of Sartar were rivals.

Belintar has several very good reason to oppose the Lunars: Jar-Eel ambushed and killed him on his way back to life; The Lunars invaded the Holy Country; The Red Earth Faction has changed the balance of power in Esrolia. However, that does not make him an aggressive enemy, instead he is more likely to sit back and provide magical support and send armies to fight. 

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4 hours ago, metcalph said:

which then gets sunk by the Kralori after which Belintar renounces foreign conquest.  I always felt that was a bit strange.

If you think about it, during the time of Belintar, there are effectively 3 God-kings in Genertela:  Belintar, the Red Emperor, and Godunya (the latter obviously draconic, but worshipped by his people).  The expedition to Kralorela must have touched upon this causing Godunya to react.  Similarly, the Red Emperor's incursion into Dragon Pass caused Belintar to react as he could, but within the constraints of not leaving the Holy Country himself.

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8 hours ago, soltakss said:

Belintar has several very good reason to oppose the Lunars: Jar-Eel ambushed and killed him on his way back to life; The Lunars invaded the Holy Country; The Red Earth Faction has changed the balance of power in Esrolia. However, that does not make him an aggressive enemy, instead he is more likely to sit back and provide magical support and send armies to fight. 

Okay.  1581 - the Lunar Empire attacks Sartar for the first time.  Wot's Belintar's problem with them that he feels the need to support Sartar?

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26 minutes ago, metcalph said:

1581 - the Lunar Empire attacks Sartar for the first time.  Wot's Belintar's problem with them that he feels the need to support Sartar?

I think it is what Jeff noted:  Belintar and the Red Emperor both represent an Axis Mundi in the world, and that's an untenable position that both are aware of.  Belintar cannot leave the Holy Country though (he never travels beyond that we are aware of), so has to engage by proxy.

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11 hours ago, metcalph said:

Okay.  1581 - the Lunar Empire attacks Sartar for the first time.  Wot's Belintar's problem with them that he feels the need to support Sartar?

I don't know, that is all in the past.

My comment was why bringing back Belintar might not be as good as bringing back Sheng Seleris.

Given that the Lunars were in the Holy Country, Belintar might have a grievance against them.

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I don't think a Lightbringer's Quest that brings back exactly what you were looking for to begin with counts as a successful one. So it's probably a mistake to ask "Why Sheng Seleris?" when the answer is probably "Sheng was what was necessary". 

(Obviously, in practical terms, part of Belintar is hanging around Jar-eel's neck and you'd need that in order to bring back the divine part of the God-King, while Sheng is kept whole.)

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It has been said elsewhere that Belintar bears a great similarity to Ephraim Waite from "The Thing at the Doorstep", in that he is (LOL spoiler alert) a body-hopping sorcerer rather than a real god.  Of course with enough magical sacrifice and a few useful trinkets, even an ogre can become a deity... Looking at you, Moonson.

It is also pretty likely that when Jar-Eel assassinated Belintar that he was consigned to a Lunar Hell, which is why he didn't return from the underworld.  Of course...

...The rather under-veiled suggestion is that after the reign of Argrath and the fall of the Moon that Belintar manages to return and to found the Harshax dynasty, ruling over a barbaric and largely illiterate people, but helping to re-civilize Glorantha, if in a totalitarian fashion.

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5 hours ago, Darius West said:

...The rather under-veiled suggestion is that after the reign of Argrath and the fall of the Moon that Belintar manages to return and to found the Harshax dynasty, ruling over a barbaric and largely illiterate people, but helping to re-civilize Glorantha, if in a totalitarian fashion.

I don't think I'd express it as Belintar returning.  That someone becomes the Harshax and starts a dynasty, yes.  And there are references to both a "he" and "she" as Harshax.  But really that's all expressed in KoS.

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4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I don't think I'd express it as Belintar returning.  That someone becomes the Harshax and starts a dynasty, yes.  And there are references to both a "he" and "she" as Harshax.  But really that's all expressed in KoS.

Harshax could even be a title, for all we know. The references are too scattered to make it clear whether "the Harshax" means "the (current) Harshax" or "the (eternal, bodyhopping, swinging, coolest cat and tyrant in Fourth Age Tarsh, Mx.) Harshax". 

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On 3/2/2021 at 11:55 PM, jajagappa said:

I don't think I'd express it as Belintar returning.  That someone becomes the Harshax and starts a dynasty, yes.  And there are references to both a "he" and "she" as Harshax.  But really that's all expressed in KoS.

I won't argue the point as I think the info available is sketchy at best.  I personally like to think that Belintar is actually the only priest of the god Time aka Kajaboor as transformed by Aracne Solara.  I also like to think he came about his initiation in a very unlikely way.

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On 2/14/2021 at 2:21 AM, jajagappa said:

If you think about it, during the time of Belintar, there are effectively 3 God-kings in Genertela:  Belintar, the Red Emperor, and Godunya (the latter obviously draconic, but worshipped by his people).  The expedition to Kralorela must have touched upon this causing Godunya to react.  Similarly, the Red Emperor's incursion into Dragon Pass caused Belintar to react as he could, but within the constraints of not leaving the Holy Country himself.

Ralzakark is surely a fourth god king - pretty impressive somehow sidestepping Arkat’s cleansing.

Makes you wonder why the Lunars were so keen to kill Belintar, but made peace treaties with an obvious candidate for the demonic emperor who was prophesied to succeed the Red Emperor.

Perhaps it was just that Belintar was magically vulnerable, easy pickings. Or maybe they thought the alternative to a demonic emperor, no emperor at all, was worse.

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12 minutes ago, EricW said:

Ralzakark is surely a fourth god king - pretty impressive somehow sidestepping Arkat’s cleansing.

Makes you wonder why the Lunars were so keen to kill Belintar, but made peace treaties with an obvious candidate for the demonic emperor who was prophesied to succeed the Red Emperor.

Perhaps it was just that Belintar was magically vulnerable, easy pickings. Or maybe they thought the alternative to a demonic emperor, no emperor at all, was worse.

I don't think Ralzakark counts as a god king. He's a supremely powerful chaotic entity, yes, but he's not quite a god in mortal flesh.

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1 hour ago, Charles said:

In one publication, can’t remember which, doesn’t Ralzakark opine that it’s not worth becoming a god because of the restrictions of the Compromise?

good question: what happen for mortal becoming god after the Compromise ?

Do they need to sign (metaphoricaly) the compromise to become a god ?

Or could they be god and not follow the rules?

Or maybe no mortal become god, and those who are designed like that (Sartar ...) are in fact some kind of god "blocked" (and free, in some way) in the mundane world, looking for going back "home" (god time)

 

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7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do they need to sign (metaphoricaly) the compromise to become a god ?

Or could they be god and not follow the rules?

Or maybe no mortal become god, and those who are designed like that (Sartar ...) are in fact some kind of god "blocked" (and free, in some way) in the mundane world, looking for going back "home" (god time)

Well, we know quite a few mortals who become gods, not just Sartar.  The Seven Mothers, Hwarin Dalthippa, Etyries, Hon-eel, Aronius Jaranthir. 

What we generally see is that they withdraw from the mortal world into the Godtime (or the Moon).  That's probably how they "accept" the compromise.  If they are still acting in the world they are "heroes" or demigods, but the creation of a home in the Gods World and withdrawal to it seems to assert and seal their place in the mythic realms.  They are rarely able to "return" (and such noted returns may actually be as avatars). 

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12 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do they need to sign (metaphoricaly) the compromise to become a god ?

I've had the impression that the path to become a god was to take the role of an older deity that had been forgotten and that it was not possible to add new "signatures" to the contract. I draw a parallel with the corporate world: you can see the Great Compromise as a contract signed by corporations. Even if the CEO of any of the companies signing the pact was to change down the line, the corporation itself would still be forced to obey the clauses of the contract as it was originally signed. 

It might warrant a visit from the Gift Carriers, but if you think about it maybe the real pact is between the Runes themselves. It's a deal made to unify and protect the integrity of the raw powers, elements and conditions that define Glorantha, by themselves and among themselves. If gods are masks interfacing between us mortals and the raw Runic forces, then maybe gods are just subject to the Compromise, which would be a myth to help us understand the cosmological reality that his beyond the reach of common men. It also raises questions about the existence of the chaos rune and its real role in the Great Compromise: if it's bound by its rules now, can we consider that chaos signed it too ?

Edited by Hijabg
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3 hours ago, Hijabg said:

It might warrant a visit from the Gift Carriers, but if you think about it maybe the real pact is between the Runes themselves. It's a deal made to unify and protect the integrity of the raw powers, elements and conditions that define Glorantha, by themselves and among themselves. If gods are masks interfacing between us mortals and the raw Runic forces, then maybe gods are just subject to the Compromise, which would be a myth to help us understand the cosmological reality that his beyond the reach of common men. It also raises questions about the existence of the chaos rune and its real role in the Great Compromise: if it's bound by its rules now, can we consider that chaos signed it too ?

I realize it's a bit fraught to draw comparisons to RW politics, but somewhat like totalitarian ideologies can operate within democratic societies (as parties entering elections, etc.) but still operate with the goal to overthrow that democratic system, it's possible that the Chaos Rune is bound to play within certain rules of the Compromise, but ultimately with the goal to overthrow the Compromise. 

IMHO, Chaos isn't able to do so alone. It requires more of the cosmic forces to break with the Compromise first. Something else needs to put the cracks in, as it were. At least this is how the Gods War unfolded. Hence the importance of Sacred Time rites and upholding various cultural taboos (whether this is based on subjective beliefs or universal laws is somewhat irrelevant).

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I realize it's a bit fraught to draw comparisons to RW politics, but somewhat like totalitarian ideologies can operate within democratic societies (as parties entering elections, etc.) but still operate with the goal to overthrow that democratic system, it's possible that the Chaos Rune is bound to play within certain rules of the Compromise, but ultimately with the goal to overthrow the Compromise. 

I love this angle. What an insightful vision ! This also reminds me of the thread about playing the enemy's role in a HeroQuest. 

To bring this back to the main subject, Belintar, would this mean he had to emulate or amalgamate some older forgotten deities to establish his own godhead ? We know this is the recipe followed by the Seven Mothers when they "discovered" the Red Goddess. The identity of those forgotten powers Belintar have "discovered" to become the God-King might be the key to his fall and the strategy deployed by Jar-Eel to imprison him in lunar hell. Maybe they have a mythic ancestor in common and this gave the lunar heroine the insight to achieve victory against Belintar. Maybe this common ancestor revealed that Belintar always had been some kind of lunar deity...

Edited by Hijabg
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