How Could BRP Be More Popular...?

[dragonewt]

If any of the Grogs here know where the files ended up, there used to be a command line UNIX program on the SODA Archives that would spit out literally reams of pre-made NPCs complete with MrMan type hit location charts.

After pondering the advantages and disadvanges of the HERO system, I grabbed my trusty punch-card collection and dusted off my hex key pad.

After struggling with a ZX81, some of these BRP/RQ tools should soon appear in the downloads section.

Edit: Maybe not, time to PM a Troll - "You may only upload or link to the following extensions: .pdf .doc .docx .odt .rtf .txt .xls .ods .skp "

Edited February 16, 2010 by dragonewt

[SDLeary]

After pondering the advantages and disadvanges of the HERO system, I grabbed my trusty punch-card collection and dusted off my hex key pad.

After struggling with a ZX81, some of these BRP/RQ tools should soon appear in the downloads section.

Edit: Maybe not, time to PM a Troll - "You may only upload or link to the following extensions: .pdf .doc .docx .odt .rtf .txt .xls .ods .skp "

I hereby proclaim you Grogus Maximus! Ave!

Wow! Punch-cards! You obviously took some of SODA with you!

SDLeary

Edited February 17, 2010 by SDLeary
ugly smily

[Varulv]

I don´t have alot to ad to the thread but it´s quite interesting how the rpg hobby looks internationaly. I mean´since the market is dominated by D&D and later on d20. Here (Sweden) the rpg hobby was established through BRP based games like Drakar och Demoner(Dragons&Demons) and Mutant in the early 80´s. So thats the system gamecreators rarly use today use since the trend is to say "it´s just same dull simulationist thing it always been!". Still most systems have emerged from the BRP paradigm.

To get BRP more popular there is one critical element: fourcolor books and illustrations of high standard.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Varulv

[Bygoneyrs]

I think with the addition of more support products for BRP it will begin to build a greater following!

Penn

[TheShadow]

Of course it would be great to see BRP becoming more popular. But I'm quite satisfied with the support base the system does have. It has name recognition even with your average D&D playing types, which will at least get a hearing for a game pitch. Add to that 30 years of material in a variety of genres, which I can pick and choose from as a GM, and today's mini-renaissance in new products, and I'm a happy camper.

[Daxos232]

I think the biggest hurdle I faced when using BRP was that I could not understand the combat systems at all. I had to buy MRQ and I used combat actions from that as my first working combat system. I still couldn't tell you how the basic BRP combat system works, though I now have an idea how the Strike Ranks system works. The combat exaple one the book (i think pg 198) is not helpful at all.

BRP would probably benefit the most by putting in clear, concise, and thorough examples of how combat and combat situations work. It would be great if they covered multiple genres like fantasy, modern, and superhero, to take into account examples of spellcasting, firearms, and superpowers. That right there would be a big step up.

[pansophy]

I think the biggest hurdle I faced when using BRP was that I could not understand the combat systems at all. I had to buy MRQ and I used combat actions from that as my first working combat system. I still couldn't tell you how the basic BRP combat system works, though I now have an idea how the Strike Ranks system works. The combat exaple one the book (i think pg 198) is not helpful at all.

Hm, my suggestion is to start without all the Options in the book and then, after getting a good hold of the standard rules, adding these. I know it is tempting to use everything in the book, but honestly, it is not for everyone.

I personal do not use the Strike Rank system as I do not feel it would add anything to our group. But even that depends on everyone's taste. If you want combat rounds to be more dynamic, it will certainly add flavour.

Anyway, keep things simple and stupid in the beginning, then try to add the Options.

And I must say in my opinion the rules are written quite well. Sure, there is a lot of information in them, but try to get the whole picture. Do as they say, step by step and use one of your characters as an example. It's quite easy then.

BRP would probably benefit the most by putting in clear, concise, and thorough examples of how combat and combat situations work. It would be great if they covered multiple genres like fantasy, modern, and superhero, to take into account examples of spellcasting, firearms, and superpowers. That right there would be a big step up.

More examples are always good. But I must say, they already did a good work and put in lots of examples. A complete one, where everything is covered would be such a monster, that nobody will read it. But some smaller ones for each major setting might be good. But that is what this (unofficial) forum is for. You will always get an answer for your problem, and sometimes so many, that you don't know what to do with them

So what can be done better? I think the graphical presentation. If you compare the BRP book with other products like Eclipse Phase, Dark Heresy, Realms of Chthulhu, Solomon Kane, Slipstream, etc. BRP looks plain and dull. Somebody mentioned "uninspiring", which might be true in a first glance. I personally love well done colour printed rule books and yes, I am willing to pay 20$ more for that. If the art and the layout is well done, it's well worth my money.

What else? Some more supporting products directly from Chaosium. Doing reprints of the old products produces a nice range of add-ons, but does not enhance BRP when these reprints are not even extended for it. For example the Basic Creatures book. It is nice for Fantasy, but completely useless for a modern or even futuristic setting. I would have loved to see some new creatures in that book, the BRP core rules book made a good start with that.

It's like the basic Savage Worlds rules book. Good at all, but can be totally useless as well. SW would be nothing without the settings Pinnacle put out. And now imagine these settings all done in black&white ... not really a burner. I mean, CoC is done well in b/w as it catches the mood, but Realms of Cthulhu for SW showed how I would have expected a new rules book or add-on.

That's me.

[Daxos232]

Hm, my suggestion is to start without all the Options in the book and then, after getting a good hold of the standard rules, adding these.

That's the thing, I didn't add any additional rules, I just couldn't find an example anywhere of basic combat. The example they give one page 198 (i think its 198) isn't combat. It just a guy running away from people without striking back.

And I must say in my opinion the rules are written quite well. Sure, there is a lot of information in them, but try to get the whole picture. Do as they say, step by step and use one of your characters as an example. It's quite easy then.

I'm not saying the rules aren't well written, every thing in the book is great, I just had problems with that one subject.

More examples are always good. But I must say, they already did a good work and put in lots of examples. A complete one, where everything is covered would be such a monster, that nobody will read it. But some smaller ones for each major setting might be good.

I think the book did a great job with all it's examples, just not combat. The examples for each setting wouldn't even have to be that big, proably a very short paragragh, 1 to 4 sentences maybe, for each. One involving every option would be ridiculous of course.

[pansophy]

You know, you are right. The Combat example is not that good. It's actually on page 210, page 198 is about the Strike Ranks. There really should be a better example for basic combat. The one they have in their Quick Start Rules is a good one (p.29).

Actually they seem to have noticed that lack of explanation and solved it in the Quick Start rules at least.

Hm, there is an error in the Example. A shot with a Firearm in Close Combat is unmodified. The Attacker gets 'Easy' for being at Point-Blank Range and 'Difficult' for being in Close Combat, so both modifiers negate each other. This is explained on page 224 in the BRP rules book:

"while firing a missile weapon while engaged in combat is considered Difficult. However, if the attacker and the target are both within close combat range, the attack is Easy due to the rules for “Point-Blank Range” (page 229), meaning that the skill chance is unaffected."

Edited April 7, 2010 by pansophy

[Aelwyn]

Daxos, we can fix this problem... at least for you. I didn't find the rules confusing, but maybe that's because I'm an old RuneQuest 2nd edition player.

Don't use Strike Ranks. It just slows play down and it's too confusing.

Don't use Hit Locations. It just slows play down while you consult a table.

Characters attack in the order of their DEX--highest DEX first.

If you roll your attack skill or less on D100, you hit the target. If you roll 1/5th of your attack skill or less, you get a Special hit. If you roll 1/20th of your attack skill you get a Critical hit. If you roll 96 or higher, you might have fumbled. Check the table on p. 384 until you get the math down.

If you hit the target, the target gets a chance to parry or dodge. If they succeed, they can modify your hit result up one. (Critical becomes Special, Special becomes Success, Success becomes Failure) If they get a Special, they can modify it up two. If they Critical, they successfully parry or dodge any hit, including a Critical hit.

If the target misses their parry or dodge, roll for damage. (See the weapons table, or your character sheet.)

Subtract the AP of the target's armor from damage. (See the armor table, or your character sheet.) Then subtract the final damage from the target's hit points.

If you take more than half your hit points in damage, roll on the major wound table. (or not, if it's slowing play down too much)

If you have two or fewer hit points, you're unconscious.

If you have zero or fewer hit points, you will die if you don't receive First Aid or a Heal spell by the end of the next combat round.

Special hits:

Pointed weapons impale=roll twice for weapon damage (but not your STR bonus)

Blunt objects crush=increase your STR bonus by one level

Edged weapons cause bleeding=target loses 1 extra HP every combat round until they're healed

Critical hits: the same effects as Special hits, plus it ignores armor (your weapon found a soft spot)

Fumble: roll an effect on the fumble table, or just let the GM pick one of these: accidentally hit yourself, accidentally hit a friend, throw your weapon in the bushes, break your weapon, fall down.

That's pretty much it!

Example coming.

[Aelwyn]

Dorcas and Doofus are fighting.

Dorcas is STR 10, CON 10, SIZ 10, DEX 15. Dorcas is armed with a saber, 1d8+1 damage. She has 65% skill, which means she causes bleeding at 13%, criticals at 4%, and fumbles at 99-00. She is wearing 2-point hard leather armor. She has 10 hit points (average of SIZ and CON). Because she has average STR and SIZ, she has no damage bonus.

Doofus is STR 13, CON 10, SIZ 13, DEX 10. He has a damage bonus of +1d4 due to his STR and SIZ. He is armed with a heavy club, 1d8+damage bonus, or 1d8+1d4. He has 52% skill, so he crushes at 11% or below, criticals at 3% or below, and fumbles on a roll of 98-00. He is wearing 1-point leather armor. He has 12 hit points (average of SIZ and CON rounded up).

All of the above information should be written on their character sheets for easy access.

1st round:

Dorcas, because of her higher DEX, goes first. She rolls an 88, which is higher than her skill of 65, so it's a miss. Doofus doesn't have to parry or dodge this attack.

Doofus rolls a 10--a Special hit! Dorcas rolls a 90 for her parry (which is the same as her skill with the saber), so she fails to parry Doofus's attack.

Crushing damage means Doofus's damage bonus goes up one level, to 1d6, so he rolls 1d8+1d6 for damage. He rolls a 2 and a 3 for 5 points of damage. Dorcas's armor absorbs 2 of the 5 points of damage and she takes 3 points of damage and is now down to 7 hit points.

Second round:

Dorcas rolls a 33, which is a hit, but Doofus needs a 51 or less to parry, and he rolls a 47, deflecting her attack with his club.

Doofus then swings his club, but he rolls a 99--a fumble! He then rolls a 52 on the fumble table. He throws his club into the next room!

Third round:

Dorcas has no mercy. She swings her saber, rolling a 02--a critical hit! Doofus has no weapon or shield to parry with, and he didn't train his Dodge skill, so he only has the base percentage chance of his DEXx2%, or 20%. (This is also on his character sheet.) He rolls a 25, so he is unable to get out of the way of Dorcas's saber attack, which because it is a critical hit, slides between the grooves in his armor and cuts deep. Dorcas rolls 1d8+1 for damage, rolls a 7+1 is 8. Doofus is suddenly down to 4 hit points, and he has a major wound, and he's bleeding, which means he will lose 1 hit point at the end of every combat round, starting with this one. He'll be unconscious at the end of the next combat round, when he'll be down to 2 hit points, and two rounds after that, he'll be down to 0 hit points. He will die at the end of the following round if he doesn't receive medical attention.

At the end of the round, Doofus bleeds onto the floor and goes down to 3 hit points. He also rolls an 84 on the major wound table--a punctured lung. He will lose 1d6 CON and MOV, and he can't fight any more. He rolls a 4, so his CON and MOV go down to 6, and he loses 2 hit points as well due to the reduced CON. The poor guy screams, "Double-yoo tee eff, man!" and falls on the floor, unconscious.

Fourth round:

"My bad," says Dorcas. "I'll get the Neosporin." Fortunately, her First Aid skill is 75%. She rolls a 68, and heals 1d3 points of Doofus's damage. She rolls a 3, which brings him around. The first aid also stops the bleeding. On the next round she will use the same skill to heal the wound Doofus gave her. But he's still going to need to rest up for the rest of the week.

I'm not fond of using the fumble and major wound tables--consulting tables tends to slow things down. On the other hand, they have fun, interesting effects. As with anything in BRP, use what works for you, and don't worry about the rest.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Aelwyn

[Narl]

Great example! This should be reposted in a new "Combat Examples" thread and stickied.

[Daxos232]

That is a great example. I am sorry you went through so much work, I should have been more specific in what about combat confused me, the part about DEX ranks and determining the order of who goes first, and who goes second, and so on is what threw me off. I didn't get how everything else related to the DEX ranks, like movement and the amount of bullets you can fire from your gun, and so on. Now that you gave that example, I can't believe I didn't see how it works before. One or two examples like that in the book and no one would have any problems understanding.

[Aelwyn]

Pthphtt... no work. It was fun. Plus, I'm trying to get some newbs into the system, so I needed to do something like this anyway.

[seneschal]

She slices the guy nearly in half and they remain friends? (Of course, she did stick around to patch him up.)

[josha]

To become more popular, BRP needs better advertising.

If they would just put up some ads on the web and some posters in gaming stores (as well as putting more of their books on the shelves), a lot more people would play.

[Smoking Frog]

To borrow a cliche from Field of Dreams: if you publish it, they will play it. All the advertising in the world won't help if the available product line is not appealing. I would think that the popularity of BRP the system is primarily limited to the popularity of any good quality settings through which it is implemented. Creating interesting adventures within a reasonably fleshed out setting is much more practical for most GMs than creating the setting. Although we may find the BRP system most to our tastes, I don't think that you can objectively say it is so superior to other systems that it should really be driving them out of the market -- the way cassettes did to 8-tracks and CDs did to cassettes. It's not even the only universal system available.

Although we generally enjoy bashing games with "levels" and experience points, that sort of system works well for games where the players want their characters to become progressively more impressive so that they can defeat increasingly nasty monsters. That is, the fun of that game, if you like it, is that you husband your little guy along from the time when he struggled to beat a bunch of goblins to the point where he routinely slays dragons and is not afraid of facing demi-gods. If you like that sort of game, BRP is not a good system for you: your characters just don't improve in quality all that much; you don't go from "normal" to "heroic" to "epic" etc.

I don't see how BRP or any other system can be popular without a dedicated pool of creative talent putting out quality settings and adventures. Most settings won't sell like hotcakes, but that's the nature of the beast: I think Crusaders of the Amber Coast is one of the best, if not the best, setting I've ever seen. But I love historical RPGs and I have had a long interest in the Baltic crusades. I know there can't be too many people like that. If you're in this to get rich, though, you really should be selling video games.

[RosenMcStern]

Thank you for the kind words, SF. I will also listen to your advice and start selling video games

However, I think that what you said about BRP characters not progressing from normal to epic level is not true. I have played campaigns where characters started as hunters and ended their careers as demi-gods. In the old RuneQuest game the acquisition of powerful magic, which is not limited to professional wizards in that game, did the trick, but there are equivalent ways to achieve this in the BGB.

[threedeesix]

Although we generally enjoy bashing games with "levels" and experience points, that sort of system works well for games where the players want their characters to become progressively more impressive so that they can defeat increasingly nasty monsters. If you like that sort of game, BRP is not a good system for you: your characters just don't improve in quality all that much; you don't go from "normal" to "heroic" to "epic" etc.

As Rosen mentioned in the previous post, this can be done with the BGB just by "switching on" several of the optional rules. Making a few other minor tweaks while writing Classic Fantasy allowed my players characters to wade through the following after a few years of adventuring...

1 Hill Giant Chief

1 Hill Giant Sub-Chief

1 Female Hill Giant (the chief's wife)

1 Cloud Giant (visiting dignitary)

3 Stone Giants (also visiting dignitaries)

22 Hill Giant Warriors

8 Ogres

1 Cave Bear

This was in one BIG battle. When they first started adventuring, one hill giant would have mopped the floor with the whole lot of them, so I would call that going from "normal" to "epic". It was all done with powerful spells, magic items, and successful defense rolls.

To read about the entire battle, and see some pictures of the miniatures combat, see the Classic Fantasy thread here...

http://basicroleplaying.com/showthread.php/1645-CLASSIC-FANTASY-A-Return-to-the-Dawn-of-Roleplaying/page21

It begins about two posts down.

Epic!

Rod

[Smoking Frog]

Thank you for the kind words, SF. I will also listen to your advice and start selling video games

However, I think that what you said about BRP characters not progressing from normal to epic level is not true. I have played campaigns where characters started as hunters and ended their careers as demi-gods. In the old RuneQuest game the acquisition of powerful magic, which is not limited to professional wizards in that game, did the trick, but there are equivalent ways to achieve this in the BGB.

I'm sure I'll buy your video games too!

I bow to your greater experience with BRP in getting characters to improve dramatically. I see that in a game like RuneQuest this could be done with things other than "levels," but I missed the RQ boat when I was a youngster. Most of my experience with the BRP system has been in Call of Chthulhu, so I guess I never think of BRP characters becoming the sort of killing machines my D&D hoodlums would routinely become.

I've been thinking about character progress a lot lately because I've been working on a heroic fantasy setting for the Bronze Age Aegean/Near East. I don't want to have characters becoming Achilles and be able to mow down armies without breaking a sweat, but obviously there needs to be something to play for. I think using better magic items and the like as a way to "beef up" the characters could work well.

[Smoking Frog]

This was in one BIG battle. When they first started adventuring, one hill giant would have mopped the floor with the whole lot of them, so I would call that going from "normal" to "epic". It was all done with powerful spells, magic items, and successful defense rolls.

To read about the entire battle, and see some pictures of the miniatures combat, see the Classic Fantasy thread here...

Nice!

What optional rules did you use to help build the charactes up?