How Could BRP Be More Popular...?

[Newt]

Yes

I just wanted to be clear in my mind that it was the 'positive' version of competing.

[Atgxtg]

For your general edification, an illuminating quote from James Wallis (who knows something about running RPG publishing companies), specifically about Dragon Warriors, but clearly relevant to BRP as well. Taken from the Yahoo DW group:

The gist - play the game where people will notice; discuss it outside this site; get it reviewed; get more products out. Wal-mart etc are chimera

Nick

I'm not sure most of Wallis opions are correct, though. Just becuase DW doesn't sell in mainstream stores doesn't mean that other RPGs don't. D&D and Vampire must be doing alright in the mainstream sotres since they are still being carried and many bookstores have an RPG section.

Personally, I think that some of his things that "increase people awareness of an RPG" do little to expand the player base.

Specifically:

* Sessions of the game being run at conventions.

Does little to boost the RPG. People who sign up for events at conventions already know what games they want to play.

* Appearances by the creators at conventions.

Does less. People have to be aware of what the creators actually created before they will wish to listen to them. So in the end this means that the creators are "preaching to the choir".

* People playing the game at local clubs and demonstrating it in their local game shop.

This requires that people are going into the local club/game shop to begin with. This means targeting people who are already gamers, and people who are already gamers are already playing something else.

What I think Wallis' ideas do is to help sell more copies of a RPG -not necessarily increase the player base. The folks over at Mongoose mentioned a few years back that about 80% of the RPGs that people buy just sit on the shelf. Many gamers own lots of RPGs but only have the opportunity and time to play one or two. I know I own dozens of RPGs but am currently only playing one RPG -and it isn't BRP. I started the campaign before BRP was released and don't want to stop the campaign (or covert it over to a different ruleset) just to promote BRP.

Back in the days when RQ2 was a serious contender, there were far fewer RPgs to compete with. Today BRP has to compete not only with all the RPgs currently being supposed, but with all the RPGs that have been relased in the past, especially those that people have already purchased and are fond of. So if they are going to play BRP then they are not going to be playing something else. Whenver I start up a new campaign, I have to think over just which RPG, to run. I've got favorites, and one that I want to try, and ones that cover certain settings I am fond of and so forth.

Newbies are good targets in part because they don't have a bunch of other RPgs kicking around that they want to play.

[kaddawang]

I know I own dozens of RPGs but am currently only playing one RPG -and it isn't BRP.

Heretic! Heretic! Someone call the Inquisition!

But Atgxtg's points are valid. BRP is my game of choice, but apart from CoC, my games are homebrewed conversions and mishmashes. Most gamers prefer to have most of the game ready to use, not to spend ages tweaking options and building worlds(BRP Central-members excluded:rolleyes:)

Someone looking to get into a RPG for the first time is going to walk straight past BRP. Perhaps they'll pick up RuneQuest, but that is the best case scenario.

BRP, as it is, is not accessable. And it won't be until it can showcase a nice, fluffy setting or two. Me thinks..

[Rurik]

Mongoose understands this relationship - that is why the MRQ SRD exists. After all, once they started as a small d101 Games using WotC's SRD.

From the Mongoose Board:

No.

I will now officially eat crow.

Anyone know any good recipes?

[Merak Gren]

From the Mongoose Board:

I will now officially eat crow.

Anyone know any good recipes?

Here are 3.

Three Crow Recipes

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Some Beverly Hillbillies told me the pickles crows' gizzards are quite tasty.

People don't play games because they love the rules; they play games because they love the setting or genre and learn to appreciate the rules afterward.

I have to add my personal disagreement to this as well. I have tried many, many games with 'other' systems over the last 20-odd years, but I ended up converting every single one of them to RuneQuest rules after two or three sessions at most. Not all of my players felt the same, but a substantial majority did. Being a fan of scientific method I have to acknowledge that this is purely anecdotal, but in the absence of any proper research* we have to go with what we know.

*There is a serious lack of RPG research going on, given the popularity of philosophy and social science as PhD subjects.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Vile

[Agentorange]

How could BRP be more popular ? Possibly by it's parent company actually supporting it with some products ?

[NickMiddleton]

How could BRP be more popular ? Possibly by it's parent company actually supporting it with some products ?

Getting more people to play BRP would make it more popular as well - but it's not a very constructive comment, is it?

More usefully, given Chaosium has pretty solid support for the game in PDF / monograph form via their web site, what products are they not doing that would help?

My memory was that they were talking about selling the print edition of the BRP Quick Start through distribution - I've never seen it in my FLGS, so does anyone know if they back away from that or it's just fallen between the cracks again?

In Search of Troll Slayer IS in distribution - do we know how well that is doing? Has anyone (Chaosium, Alephtar, anyone else) any plans to do similar small scale supplements? Related question for Paolo - with the new relationship Alephtar has with C7, is a print edition of Veni, Vidi, Vici now possible?

Has anyone discussed a publishing / distribution partnership with Chaosium? That is, producing BRP licensed books which Chaosium then handle the distribution of? Since their standard licensing terms involve them getting a certain number of copies for resale, having them handle getting the book into distribution would save a small publisher money, be an easy way of guaranteeing Chaosium get their copies BEFORE it hits distribution AND it would give Chaosium more product in the distribution channel...

Nick

[RosenMcStern]

Related question for Paolo - with the new relationship Alephtar has with C7, is a print edition of Veni, Vidi, Vici now possible?

I think it would not be viable. It sells 20% of what Rome sells. Still a good figure, as Rome sells well, but it does not deserve a print run.

Has anyone discussed a publishing / distribution partnership with Chaosium? That is, producing BRP licensed books which Chaosium then handle the distribution of?

I can assure you, without being accused of trying to read Charlie's mind, that he would not be very willing to do so. If he has trouble even with editing submission, I doubt he is adequately staffed to act as a fulfillment house - assuming he was willing to take this role. Impressions is the recommended way to go for indie distribution, unless you wish to try an agreement with Cubicle 7 as a partner.

Speaking of which, in my last mail to Charlie I mentioned to him that you and others might have something in mind and could use a way to get into distribution. I suppose he has not read my message yet, although the turkey population of California could be happier if he was reading my emails now, but while he takes his time to think about it, I recommend you drop a line to Angus Abranson or to Aldo Ghiozzi.

[kaddawang]

More usefully, given Chaosium has pretty solid support for the game in PDF / monograph form via their web site, what products are they not doing that would help?

They have a lot of monographs up there, yes. But they are anything but easily available. And anything but easily accessable for a newbie. And not very exiting, with their rather bland layout and non-impressive(if at all present) illustrations.

A good, vibrant, full-fledged, available setting will help.

A setting that doesn't need to be unique, just good and detailed, and that blends in with the core-book, showing how options are used, and adding depth to the BRP-rules.

Perhaps a licenced setting? Chaosium have done well there earlier. Perhaps something spankingly new? If so, Chaosium should begin to consider their options soon. Perhaps in co-operation with Alephtar/C7 or another company?

Either way, it needs to be good enough that someone wants to invest in both the setting, and the $35+ corebook.

I don't know. I'm not in the publishing business. I just think this is the best solution.

[NickMiddleton]

I can assure you, without being accused of trying to read Charlie's mind, that he would not be very willing to do so. If he has trouble even with editing submission, I doubt he is adequately staffed to act as a fulfillment house - assuming he was willing to take this role. Impressions is the recommended way to go for indie distribution, unless you wish to try an agreement with Cubicle 7 as a partner.

Speaking of which, in my last mail to Charlie I mentioned to him that you and others might have something in mind and could use a way to get into distribution. I suppose he has not read my message yet, although the turkey population of California could be happier if he was reading my emails now, but while he takes his time to think about it, I recommend you drop a line to Angus Abranson or to Aldo Ghiozzi.

Well, my original, off the cuff post was as much speculation on my part as anything else. It would need a small group prepared to put in the effort, with the skills to produce commercial quality material and the willingness to do so for, at best, beer money. And THAT's assuming the project recouped it's costs - I was sort of assuming it would involve the participants all contributing some cash towards making the project possible in the first instance...

Cheers,

Nick

[threedeesix]

the willingness to do so for, at best, beer money.

I don't drink, I have a coffee addiction however. Could it be for gift cards at the local coffee shop? If so, I'm in.

[seneschal]

I have to add my personal disagreement to this as well. I have tried many, many games with 'other' systems over the last 20-odd years, but I ended up converting every single one of them to RuneQuest rules after two or three sessions at most. Not all of my players felt the same, but a substantial majority did. Being a fan of scientific method I have to acknowledge that this is purely anecdotal, but in the absence of any proper research* we have to go with what we know.

*There is a serious lack of RPG research going on, given the popularity of philosophy and social science as PhD subjects.

On the other hand, we have games like Traveller, Og, Deadlands as well as franchises such as Star Trek and Doctor Who which have migrated among various RPG systems, including BRP.

[NickMiddleton]

I don't drink, I have a coffee addiction however. Could it be for gift cards at the local coffee shop? If so, I'm in.

Sure - I don't actually drink beer (I'm from darkest Somerset and a cider drinker through and through, and also sustain a substantial caffeine habit), so "alcoholic or caffeinated beverage of choice" is fine by me...

:thumb:

Nick

[Nightshade]

On the other hand, we have games like Traveller, Og, Deadlands as well as franchises such as Star Trek and Doctor Who which have migrated among various RPG systems, including BRP.

Traveller also lost fans every time the system changed (it lost quite a few--or more accurately they didn't leave the old system--when it went to the New Era, but part of that was also setting issues. ) Originally non-RPG settings aren't much of an argument because people were looking for a place to play those settings and were drawn in by not having to do the work.

There are people who are drawn to setting rather than rules, but I don't think that's enough to say that settings matter more than rules, or Hero and GURPS would not exist as viable product lines.

[TrippyHippy]

I'm not so sure about that either. While I can see that some gamers are attracted to the rules, it's really the volume of support that makes GURPS and HERO viable. I was attracted to GURPS a few years back simply because of the Transhuman Space line - but I was never keen on the various generic rules-crunch books (and ultimately was put off because the game seemed straightjacketed by needing to stick to GURPS conventions in the rules).

Similarly, my brief flirtations with HERO and other systems like FATE (Spirit of the Century) have usually been curtailed by reading through a book full of rules, but no real setting originality. Savage Worlds had some appeal, because the Solomon Kane and Low Life settings looked interesting, but ultimately, I don't feel the need to flirt too much with systems - just have an engine to hang setting ideas on.

[Atgxtg]

More usefully, given Chaosium has pretty solid support for the game in PDF / monograph form via their web site, what products are they not doing that would help?

How about something that people might actually see? One big problem with the monographs is that the only people who buy them are people who are already fans of Chaosium. Who else is going to be on the Chaosium website?

It's like the way the did the intro/lite rules. Getting them requires going to the Chasoium website and registering as a user. Most people won't go through that just for what amounts to a sales pitch to buy something from a company.And that's assuming that people somehow stumble across a mention of the BRP lite rules while they are surfing the web.

It's almost like they are trying to fail.

[frogspawner]

It's almost like they are trying to fail.

I know what you mean.

It's like the way the did the intro/lite rules. Getting them requires going to the Chasoium website...

Would there be any problem if those of us with spare webspace put up copies of the BRP Quick Start pdf ? (And others link to them in relevant forums they visit?) I don't see that there would, given that it's free...

(Though, to my mind, even those 'lite' rules should be a lot lighter. I mean, 48 pages? Original BRP plus WoW Magic World fitted into 32...)

[rust]

Would there be any problem if those of us with spare webspace put up copies of the BRP Quick Start pdf ?

I think the best approach would be to convince Chaosium to offer BRP Light

for free on Drive Thru RPG. Since they already sell PDFs of many of their Call

of Cthulhu publications there, I do not quite see why they are not doing it

already.

[Agentorange]

Getting more people to play BRP would make it more popular as well - but it's not a very constructive comment, is it?

Well, perhaps I was being a trifle harsh there. But I do stand by what I said, the amount of official Chaosium material that's come out in support of BRP hasn't exactly been overwhelming has it ? Now I know that there have been many monographs released ( I've got most of them, including yours ). But let's be honest here, the monographs are semi pro works, some in my opinion are pretty damn good but they are not professional supplements for the game. Some are riddled with typos, the art is fairly basic and the maps...well. Could I do better ? I very much doubt it. But I'm not a long standing professional games company am I ?

A company can't survive by relying on the inspiration, dedication and imagination of others whilst paying them what is in effect a token fee for all their hard work. Some of the monographs could I think have been polished into proper supplements. The two that most spring to mind are Aces High and Val du Loup. At the end of the day the vast majority of the material for the BRP line is either coming from a dedicated few fans with their own personal vision or from a third party licensees. Whilst this is of course a good revenue stream for Chaosium it woulds be nice to see them putting as much effort into the system themselves.

The monographs themselves are only practically available from Chaosium and as others have pointed out shipping costs and import tax make that a risky and expensive proposition for people outside of the USA. Offical chaosium products would be available via FLGS either off the shelf or mail order. I have for example bought as much stuff from orcs nest:

Orcs Nest Online Roleplaying Games Shop

via mail order as I have by going into the shop. But if there is no product in the shop then people aren't aware of it and consequently aren't going to buy it.

BRP was released in what ? July 2008 ? Since then what have Chaosium given us ? One dungeon crawl, it might be a great dungeon crawl ( and the blurb in the book suggests that there are more to follow ) but I was hoping for more than that in 16 months.

More usefully, given Chaosium has pretty solid support for the game in PDF / monograph form via their web site, what products are they not doing that would help?

Umm...for a start they could have given us a basic magic supplement that wasn't a simple retread of the old RQ3 magic book without even the most basic and cursory editing to make it compatible with BRP. I felt the release of that product was almost contemptuous towards the buying public. It was clear that nobody had spent any time working through it to overhaul it to BRP standards. we now have two systems called sorcery. Many of the spell names for Spirit magic are the same for 'Magic' I could go on about this one but you get the idea.

Likewise the same criticisms can be made of the Basic Creatures book: duplication of creatures, hit points calculated using the RQ ratios instead of BRP ones etc etc. If I was a newcomer to BRP who then bought those products I'd be thinking " WTF ? Is this a different game? a different edition ? have I missed something "

In answer to the question what products are they not doing that would help and considering my rant above here's one:

Basic Magic

A supplement for BRP featuring:

New 'Magic' spells

More Sorcery spells ( balance of spells from Elric and The Bronze Grimoire including necromantic spells )

Runic Sorcery ( from Bronze Grimoire, expanded and enhanced )

Spirit magic ....BRPised

Divine Magic ....BRPised

Thaumaturgy ( Ok it's the old RQ3 sorcery but it stops name confusion )

Chi Skills ( from land Of Ninja )

The spirit magic, divine magic and thaumaturgy would include all the errata that came out in the wake of RQ3. Indeed as you can't copyright a system I can see no reason why Chaosium couldn't have culled through old RQ 2 and 3 products for extra spirit magic, divine magic and thaumaturgy spells to expand those sections. obviously you'd have to de gloranthasise them and perhaps have a few name changes.

Now you might say " well there's not much new there is there ? " and that's fair enough. but what it would do is collect together all the material that's scattered over 20 odd years and god knows how many products all of which are out of print, update it, make sure it's fully compatible with BRP and release it in one easily accessible source. For the newcomer to BRP it'd a be a great add on to the BRP rules and even a old grognard like myself would buy it for convenience sake and because it had been updated.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Agentorange

[Atgxtg]

I know what you mean.

I'd like to think that they would do more to promote the RPG if they had more staff and funds. But still, if there were a new company without a following I don't think they would make it. The odds of someone running across BRP are fairly remote. Most local gaming stores don't carry it. The system is almost entirely dependent on the old time fans for sales and "recruting" new players. All we need is a sign saying "Beware of the Leopard".

Would there be any problem if those of us with spare webspace put up copies of the BRP Quick Start pdf ? (And others link to them in relevant forums they visit?) I don't see that there would, given that it's free...

(Though, to my mind, even those 'lite' rules should be a lot lighter. I mean, 48 pages? Original BRP plus WoW Magic World fitted into 32...)

You'd have to ask Chaosium. I seem to recall someone mentioning the idea of doing so before it came out, and fairly confident that Triff would have done so by now if he could, so I suspect they have some reason why they don't want the Quick Start rules available at other sites. As it stands now, few people who download the Quick Start aren't already familiar with the basic mechanics.

I can't complain about the size of the "lite" rules through, since it's a free product.

[frogspawner]

I can't complain about the size of the "lite" rules through, since it's a free product.

Oh dear, I was complaining again, wasn't I?

More constructively: If we* came up with a 2-page or so BRP 'Ultra-Quick Start' then we could each print off a hundred or so and post them through people's letter-boxes like pizza flyers. (48 pages is too many for that, even with access to a works printer... )

(* It'd better be one of us, if Chaosium have 'some reason' why they don't want to publish stuff... )

But thanks for giving us a title for this publication: "Beware of the Leopard"!

[dragonewt]

I think the best approach would be to convince Chaosium to offer BRP Light for free on Drive Thru RPG.

I have found a lot of new systems via free "Core Rules" for games on sites such as this. This introduced me to Action! System and a few other systems I admire.

I like to compare ideas and rules from many systems with the aim of learning from others' choices, and perhaps building my own system with the parts I like. It is almost like Wine Tasting for RPG's.

However, the problem is that there are so many out there, and so many to read that it can become a chore. This also undermines those wishing to charge a few dollars for their Core Rules (Which after seeing so many systems, are not always the unique RPG gift and baby as seen by the author, given the effort that often goes into a game. How many subtle variations on D20 are there?).

Sometimes, even a free registration or giving up one's email address can seem too high a price. I don't want to sound ungrateful towards all the authors, but after a while you start to see patterns and trends, and maybe find a few gems.

I think that a free PDF download for BRP Lite on the likes of Drive Thru RPG would certainly be beneficial for Chaosium.

[dragonewt]

If we* came up with a 2-page or so BRP 'Ultra-Quick Start' then we could each print off a hundred or so and post them through people's letter-boxes like pizza flyers.

I would like something similar to this. It makes a good one/two page handout for introducing people to BRP at conventions.

I have made similar abbreviated references for a few other systems I ran at conventions, such that a player who is new to a system can make a character and start playing immediately.

[GianniVacca]

More constructively: If we came up with a 2-page or so BRP 'Ultra-Quick Start'

It's on my web site: Core Rules

From the site statistics I can see it's been accessed appr. 1,000 times each month for several years.