How Could BRP Be More Popular...?

[Mister Apocalypse]

CoC worked because it was unique when it was launched; there really was nothing like it out there. These days - there's lots of horror RPGs (although nothing does it as well as CoC).

I think that was true of most of the early Chaosium stuff, not just CoC. Back in the late 70s and early 80s Chaosium was putting out a lot of stuff that was unique in one way or the other. RQ was unique in that it had Glorantha, and wasn't class based; Stormbringer was unique in that it was (one of) the first RPGs based on a licensed setting; Worlds of Wonder was Unique in that it was really the first attempt to put a multi-genre RPG into a single game box.

Today, lots of RPG have a unique setting, many licensed settings have appeared, and multi-genre RPGs are common.

So yeah, you're right about BRP not being able to follow in the CoC mold.

[rust]

But what else is out there now, or will be in the near future?

I think the material is there, just look at the forum's front page: The Green

for fantasy with a different "feel" than D&D, Aces High for Wild West, the

upcoming Pirates supplement, and ... and ... - in fact, far more and far bet-

ter stuff than I had dared to hope for a year ago.

I have been reviewing and "marketing" most of the monographs I bought over

on my German "home forum", and there was more interest in it than I had ex-

pected - although I do not know whether this interest turned into sales of

the monographs.

The problem seems to be, from my point of view at least, to get that material

into a form that is accepted by roleplaying games shops.

[frogspawner]

So we go back to the original question: what setting?

Well, the original thought behind this thread was perhaps that the BRP Book may be off-puttingly long. My suggested 'ultra-lite quick start' is therefore totally on-topic. Of course settings also help.

I think CF is as good a place to start as anywhere.

CF isn't really a setting, but it could be said to be set in MagicWorld (which really needs a better name...), because both are designed to be generic. MagicWorld itself has little detail, but if you then add the good ideas from SharedWorld... ta-DA!

And, for the SciFi fans, there's FutureWorld - as freshly revealed to us anew via Nick's in-print Outpost 19...

The problem seems to be, from my point of view at least, to get that material into a form that is accepted by roleplaying games shops.

So, is the "Call of Classic... (Fantasy, etc)" line looking a better option now?

[Toadmaster]

I'm starting to think that of most the people who play I think that it proves my argument. It's not a merit of the game, but a solution for dealing with a flaw. I don't consider such groups to be playing CoC so much as using the underlying BRP system for a modern (or nearly modern) RPG.

I's like someone running a Superworld campaign, sans superpowers, and saying what a great game it is.

Is there a Horror genre RPG you do like? It sounds to me like you don't care for the genre, period, not CoC specifically.

[frogspawner]

Woo-hoo! I see BRP Central has just had it's "eleventy-first" download of the BRP QuickStart! And in only a week - an achievement due to this thread.

Personally, though, I think even that is over long. So could someone please point me at what Loz was referring to here...?

What's made CoC popular is as follows: ...

3. A trimmed-down version of BRP that can be contained on one side of a character sheet and is easy and fast to implement.

[frogspawner]

But I wish you success with your blanket-flyers drop.

...

Also, what happens afterwards? How do these flyer-converts who've never played an RPG before get a game? Who runs it? How do they meet other players? How about dice?

By time they finish with the BRP Flyer they'd have had a game: a solo mini-adventure in the style of that on the original 16-page BRP Introductory Guide. Obviously space would be made on the BRP Flyer for a website address - probably this one (and maybe Chaosium's). So they could come here for all the advice they need. Other players? No reason to think they won't play it with the friends they already have. (So each one-in-100 could actually be a group of half-a-dozen new players...)

Dice though. Yes, that is a problem. Any ideas, anyone?

And surely it doesn't matter that you're 'preaching to the choir'? Surely we're aiming to make BRP more popular? Or don't existing roleplayers count for that much?

And yes, sure BRP is simple... but if you've never played a roleplaying game before, no matter how clear-cut you make that one/two page flyer, it won't come across that way.

Flyers can just as easily be distributed at Cons, to reach existing RPers. Even those without cash.

Anyone can role-play. And an ultra-lite introductory BRP can be made simple enough for anyone.

1. They probably know what a roleplaying game is: you don't need to expend energy teaching them first, or hope that they get the concept from a flyer.

2. They have some other system to compare it to: 'So, in Aftermath, you'd roll damage using the 4-page flowchart. In BRP, you just roll 2D6...' 'Sure your character can use magic. You don't need to be a Magic User. Sure you can multi-class - skills let you be what you want to be.

3. You can teach the rules properly, in situ, answer questions, demonstrate the options and the nuances. You can't do that with a flyer.

4. If at a con, and it has a trade stand, there's somewhere for them to buy the rules. If you're canny, find out who'll be trading beforehand, get in touch and tell 'em you'll be demoing BRP - perhaps they'd be sure to have a copy or three of the rules available; you'd be happy to puish custom their way.

5. You reach a small group but in a targeted way. Say there are two GMs at a 1 day con, running two sessions each designed for 4 - 6 players. That's potentially 24 people - roleplayers - who will, at the end of the 3-4 hour session (possibly sooner) be converts. They may well go home, armed with their copy of the Quickstart rules that you've brought along, and tell the other 4 people in their group: you've suddenly reached 96 people who could well be interested in buying the rules without having to wander around the streets dishing-out flyers.

6. At a demo game, you're part of a group; that helps you learn. Sitting at home, on your own, with your flyer, who do you turn to?

1. Teaching the concept of "a RolePlaying game" is not that hard. Say "You are a...", and it's done!

2. Our new players need never know there are such big, bad RPGs out there.

3. Good examples will help a lot, I'm sure.

4. If they've got a flyer, they've already got the rules... FREE.

5. I suspect GM-ing at a con is more effort than posting flyers. But there's no reason not to do both.

6. Sitting at home, on your own, with your flyer... you go see if your friends got it too, maybe they can figure it out... Or try that website... ...But it really should be easy enough without that!

[rust]

I am not sure whether this is on topic, but I just remembered an interesting

marketing action of the German publishers of Call of Cthulhu.

They produced and printed a quick start booklet with the basic rules and a

short introductory adventure and distributed it for free to all the major mail

order roleplaying games shops in Germany, asking them to put a copy of the

booklet into every order - Call of Cthulhu and otherwise - for free. So, for a

while all German roleplaying gamers who ordered any roleplaying material by

mail received the quick start booklet, too.

[lawrence.whitaker]

Personally, though, I think even that is over long. So could someone please point me at what Loz was referring to here...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawrence.whitaker

What's made CoC popular is as follows: ...

3. A trimmed-down version of BRP that can be contained on one side of a character sheet and is easy and fast to implement.

What I mean is that everything you need to understand a CoC character is there on the character sheet and easy to understand. Not that the rules are in some one-sheet format. I could have made myself more clear!

[lawrence.whitaker]

1. Teaching the concept of "a RolePlaying game" is not that hard. Say "You are a...", and it's done!

2. Our new players need never know there are such big, bad RPGs out there.

3. Good examples will help a lot, I'm sure.

4. If they've got a flyer, they've already got the rules... FREE.

5. I suspect GM-ing at a con is more effort than posting flyers. But there's no reason not to do both.

6. Sitting at home, on your own, with your flyer... you go see if your friends got it too, maybe they can figure it out... Or try that website... ...But it really should be easy enough without that!

1. I wish it were THAT easy. It isn't. I've had some complete newbies grasp the concept in a heartbeat, but for many others, its taken a while to get used to the interactive nature, the rules, the funny dice, the taking on a character. You may have some fool-proof technique, perhaps.

2. Complete newbies won't. But at a con, what do you think they've probably been playing?

3. Agree 100%.

4. Sure. I'll come onto this one...

5. Yep, you can do both. If you genuinely care about making BRP more popular and don't mind the effort (and have some fun into the bargain) then you won't have a problem with GMing. Just chucking a few flyers onto a table though, won't work. I've spent a lot of time cleaning up after cons. You'd be staggered at how many flyers get used as drinks coasters, paper darts and so on, and don't make it any further. Its often quite a depressing waste of paper.

6. A tiny, tiny few might. Most, I suspect, may read it, go 'huh', and switch back to Fox Sports/Playboy Channel or whatever they subscribe to.

Frogspawner, popularising BRP is going to take effort. Nothing else. Its going to take more than a few hundred or even a few thousand flyers. One single approach on its own will not work. But targeting the right people, in the right way, with the right tools and the right supporting resources stands a better chance of widening the appeal. I genuinely admire your optimism and faith that such a simple approach will work. As an aside, can I ask how many conventions you've attended? Or how many game evenings at local game stores? Its a serious question; I'm interested in knowing.

Now, back to point 4. Why don't you produce that flyer, complete with good examples, fully usable but-simple-for-the-uninitiated, in no more than two sides of A4 paper? That's about 1,100 words you have to play with. Remember: this is BRP you have to reflect, and it has to be structured so that everyone - from Granny Smith next door, right down to Little Johnny (aged 10 and 3/4, and interested in Guitar Hero and Supermario) and everyone in between, will a) get, understand and be enticed by both roleplaying and BRP; highlight all the core mechanics, from chargen, through to combat, and skill use? Magic and super powers you can safely ignore, I reckon - but if you can fit them into around 1,100 words, then go ahead.

Can it be done? I don't know: let's see. Why don't a few of you have a go? I will gladly take this along to Eternal Con and Continuum and distribute it.

[Mister Apocalypse]

Is there a Horror genre RPG you do like? It sounds to me like you don't care for the genre, period, not CoC specifically.

I'm quite fond of Pacesetter's Chill.

However, I think non-Horror RPGs are better for running Horror adventures than Horror RPGs! What I see happen is that people who are playing a Horror RPG are expecting, monsters, gore and other scariness, and it becomes sort of routine. On the other hand, when I run a horror adventure in a non-Horror game, it has a lot more impact.

[Mister Apocalypse]

I don't thing a 2-page flyer will cover enough. I think the UltraQuickStar would need:

1 page character sheet

1 page for all the tables (resistance, weapons, armor)

1/2-1 page for character creation

1-2 pages for rules (how to play, skill rolls, etc.)

2-4 pages for a intro adventure (with some sort of map)

1-2 pages for sample stats (simplified horse, bear, dragon,etc.)

So probably around 8 pages.

[lawrence.whitaker]

Ah, but the aim is to minimise paper and print costs, and to see if Frogspawner's claim that a 1-2 flyer will do the trick. So the 1-2 page challenge still stands: oh, and in a standard, 10-12 point font, so that its readable (remember Granny Smith and her poor eyesight, and Little Johnny and his miniscule attention span) and not too dense, text-wise.

By the way, I'm not being facetious or cynical here; I'm interested to see if it can be done, and appeal in the way it needs to. If it can, then it becomes another tool in the 'Make BRP Popular' armoury, to complement the more detailed quickstart rules, and be something that can be swiftly and easily distributed through letterboxes, at cons, and even in the local pub/bar/tavern/nightclub.

I'm reminded of something Winston Churchill once said. He stood-up in parliament to make a speech and before he started it, he apologised for its length: he hadn't the time, he explained, to write a shorter one...

[Mister Apocalypse]

Challenge is right. I don't think it can be done. Not if it is going to give a character sheet, character creation and an adventure.

Maybe a quick run down of the basic rules, but anything more than that will take more space. Especially if it is intended to teach the basics, since that means examples.

I went through an exercise like this a while back when I wrote and RPG for a friends six year old daughter. She was feeling left out when "Daddy and friends" went off to play RPGs.

What worked for me was to put all the data on the character sheet, and cut down on the number of attributes, and skills by combining similar skills into groups (about 20 skills total). It seems to have worked, but she is very bright, and had the game designer on hand to teach it to her.

In contrast, I've gamed with a guy who after six months, still didn't know what dice to roll or how many.

Good luck Froggy!

If I were going to try a 2 page BRP Intro, I'd look very carefully at the original 16 page BRP booklet.

[frogspawner]

... Why don't you produce that flyer, ... in no more than two sides of A4 paper? ...

Can it be done? I don't know: let's see. Why don't a few of you have a go? I will gladly take this along to Eternal Con and Continuum and distribute it.

I accept the challenge. It's on my To Do list. (Firstly I'm doing a revised/ultralite version of my own homebrew, though.)

By the way, I shan't be offended if anyone else wants to take this on, and beats me to it...

Good luck Froggy!

If I were going to try a 2 page BRP Intro, I'd look very carefully at the original 16 page BRP booklet.

Thanks! And I will - in fact I have (way back on page 12)...

Well, my attempt at No.2 is attached: a revised version of the original BRP 16-page Introductory Guide, shoe-horned into 4 pages.

I'm hopeful there is still enough fat there that can be trimmed down to 2 pages. Obviously many things will have to be cut (like a char-sheet aready has). Any comments on how well/badly this succeeds would be helpful for the 2-pager... (I've attached it again - please see end-of-post).

I am not sure whether this is on topic, but I just remembered an interesting marketing action of the German publishers of Call of Cthulhu. They produced and printed a quick start booklet with the basic rules and a short introductory adventure and distributed it for free...

Was it this CoC QuickStart from Chaosium by any chance, or perhaps a translation? (Hmm, I note this CoC one is easy to download from their site, without a login - and even has a navigation bar link to it on their page headers... Why don't they do that for BRP, eh? :ohwell:)

Just chucking a few flyers onto a table though, won't work. I've spent a lot of time cleaning up after cons. You'd be staggered at how many flyers get used as drinks coasters, paper darts and so on, and don't make it any further.

Were those flyers doing much the same as we're talking about here? Any ideas where they went wrong?

Frogspawner, ... I genuinely admire your optimism and faith that such a simple approach will work. As an aside, can I ask how many conventions you've attended? Or how many game evenings at local game stores? Its a serious question; I'm interested in knowing.

Thanks. Only 1 or 2 Games Days many years ago, and a Fiasco II at the Royal Armouries a couple of years back. No shop-based Games Evenings that I can recall, ever. Probably just as well: "Mummy, if I play these games, will I end up like that silly man?"

If it can, then it becomes another tool in the 'Make BRP Popular' armoury, to complement the more detailed quickstart rules, and be something that can be swiftly and easily distributed through letterboxes, at cons, and even in the local pub/bar/tavern/nightclub.

I'm reminded of something Winston Churchill once said. He stood-up in parliament to make a speech and before he started it, he apologised for its length: he hadn't the time, he explained, to write a shorter one...

Exactly so. I shall do my best to "give us the tools"!

BRP_Introductory_Guide_SJW.pdf

[rust]

Was it this CoC QuickStart from Chaosium by any chance, or perhaps a translation?

Unfortunately all I remember is that it was a very slim, black and white book-

let, A5 sized, in German. Having all the CoC stuff already, I did not keep it.

[rust]

Exactly so. I shall do my best to "give us the tools"!

I like your draft, but it has a problem - it is a textbook example of what is

called a "Bleiwüste" ("lead desert") over here, a very long text without any

space (e.g. illustrations, etc.) for the eyes to recover from reading.

[frogspawner]

I like your draft, but it has a problem - it is a textbook example of what is called a "Bleiwüste" ("lead desert") over here, a very long text without any space (e.g. illustrations, etc.) for the eyes to recover from reading.

You're right, of course. But thanks! (Sigh, more space to find - and piccies...)

[dragonewt]

2. Complete newbies won't. But at a con, what do you think they've probably been playing?

I remember someone earlier raising the idea of a more accessible format of BRP to help provide a more accessible entry level or more readily absorb-able format of BRP for use at conventions.

[RosenMcStern]

I like your draft, but it has a problem - it is a textbook example of what is

called a "Bleiwüste" ("lead desert") over here, a very long text without any

space (e.g. illustrations, etc.) for the eyes to recover from reading.

The real problem here is that the reader has no reason to actually read all that stuff. If the exact same information was changed into an exciting, interesting story introducing character creation and mechanisms one step at a time, it would work better. Think of the tutorials of PC games, like Oblivion, that are integrated into the story.

[threedeesix]

Another option that I just though of is to do what the old company Pacesetter did. They packaged an adventure with their box set called, "Terror at Warwick House" I believe, that was designed to teach the rules as it was run. The game master didn't even have to know how to play, he just sat the group at the table and started playing. I don't think it was any more than 4 to 6 pages but was a good evenings gaming.

Now, If this was done using say 4 or so genres, fantasy, sci-fi, espionage, and horror (normal horror, not COC), each as a separate handout, then people would be able to learn the rules and be provided with an actual adventure showcasing the system.

This also has the added benefit of being more fun to just sit down and read than an overview of a rulebook.

If the rule handout is done, these could be used to complement that as well. As a matter of fact, I think Chill was also boxed with a 2 page rule summery sheet for the players to read before the adventure giving an overview, while the majority was taught in "Warwick House".

If anyone is interested in this format I'm sure I have Chill backed up in PDF here somewhere and wouldn't mind sharing "Terror in Warwick House" and the rule summery with those that would like to use it as an example. Just send me a private message.

Rod

[rust]

They packaged an adventure with their box set called, "Terror at Warwick House" I believe, that was designed to teach the rules as it was run. The game master didn't even have to know how to play, he just sat the group at the table and started playing.

If I remember it right, the first Star Wars RPG also had a chapter of this kind,

in this case a solo adventure that introduced and explained all the important

rules during the adventure.

[RosenMcStern]

One vote in favour of Rod's proposal! :thumb:

Doing it quick, playable and for several genres is the way to go. A solo adventure would be ideal for a "flier", a multiplayer one for a convention quickstart.

[deleriad]

If I were to try to do a 1 page flyer (probably folded into an A5 booklet) I would take a very different approach of learning through trying.

You are cold, tired and scared. It feels like you have been running for hours since THEY broke in through the door. Now here you are pressed against a wall in the alleyway and you can hear voices around the corner. You have to know who is speaking and what they're saying.

In a book or a movie or a comic, the author will tell you what happens next but in a roleplaying game you are put in control of the character and it's up to you to tell the other players what you want your character to try next.

Lets say you decide that you want to sneak up to the end of the alleyway and look carefully around the corner in order to hear what's going on. It won't be easy as there's broken glass on the floor and, though you don't know it yet, there's a dog behind a trashcan. So maybe you will successfully sneak up and listen or maybe one of the bad guys will hear you crunch on some glass or maybe you'll startle the dog and it will attack you out of fear. If you want to know what happens next, grab some dice and turn over the page.

etc.

In Basic Roleplaying you have a character who has skills. In this case you want you character to move quietly to the end of the alleyway. Luckily your character is quite stealthy and your character's information says "Move Quietly 50%." This means that fifty percent of the time, when it's a matter of life and death, your character can move so quietly that alert guards are unlikely to be able to hear any noise. So what do you do? In the full game, two ten-sided dice are rolled to create a number between one to a hundred. If you roll 50 or less, your character succeeds. If you roll 51 or more, it fails: simples. You now know one of the three important things you need to know to play Basic Roleplaying.

Back to the plot. You roll 53 and fail to move quietly but maybe you'll get lucky. The bad guys might not be paying attention so the "Games Master" - the person who controls all the other characters in the game - decides that although you scuffed some glass the bad guys might not hear it. The GM says that the bad guys' Listen skill is only 35%. That means if they roll 36 or more they don't hear the sound. They roll a 72 and don't hear you.

The dog did though. Startled and angry it bites at you with its bite skill of 45% and rolls 23 - a success. You try and dodge out of the way but your dodge is a poor 30% and you roll 81, a failure. You've been bitten by an angry dog so now you need to know how how much it hurts.

Every character in BRP has a number of Hit Points (HPs) that measure how much damage your character can take before being at risk of dying. Most human characters have around 12 Hit Points. When a dog bites, the GM rolls a 'normal' six-sided dice (say it rolls a 2) and your character removes that many Hit Points. Lets say your character is a bit healthier than normal and has 14 HPs. He or she has lost 2 HPs and is down to 12. So it hurt, but it could have been worse and will heal in a few days. However, now you know the second of the three things you need to know about BRP: damage.

Right now you have other worries. The bad guys definitely heard the dog barking and the dog's fixing to bite you again but you have a plan. Some old chicken bones fell out of the trash can when it got knocked over by the dog attacking you. You want your character to reach down, wave a bone at the dog and then throw it in the direction of the bad guys. Perhaps the dog will go racing after it and give you time to run. It's your turn to do something so the GM asks you to make a Throwing skill roll. You're not great at this (45%) but make the roll and get a 01 - the best possible roll. That's a great throw but will go it far enough? The GM says because it was such a great throw it can go for up to three times your character's strength in metres.

So here's the last thing you need to know: every character in Basic Roleplaying has "characteristics" the tell you how big, strong, fast, smart and so on they are. They're all spelled out on the last page but for now, lets say your character is a little weak and only has a Strength of 9 (10 or 11 is normal). This means you could throw that bone up to 27 metres, more than far enough to get the dog racing after it and hold up the hitmen from Nesto Corporation who, as you'll soon find out, are after something precious that you have.

The Last page.

Brief description of characteristics, characteristic rolls, hit points, 10 skills listed, explanation of combat round and some equipment.

I've just dashed that off with no real care and attention. It can be done but I'm not entirely sure when it would ever be useful.

[Mister Apocalypse]

Lots of RPGs have used a "pick a path" adventure format. I think it would be a good intro for BRP too. But the nature of such adventures make them larger than the standard format.

As for trimming the rules, some suggestions:

-Trim down the your life of adventure and introduction sections to a couple of paragraphs.

-Drop the It's Fun section. It the intro hasn't gotten them interested, this isn't going to help.

-Trim down the Name you Character section. Greg had 16 pages to fill out. Just have "Name your character" on one line should be enough.

-Reduce the Resistance roll section. One example and a smaller chart. In fact you could even delete the example, if you were to use Resistance rolls in a soloadventure.

-Likewise if you did a soloadventure then most of the examples could be shorted or deleted. The rules could then be taught in the solo adventure.

I thing stuff like the intro can be trimmed and the "Its Fun" can be dropped.

Some related ideas:

How about a character sheet with a 1 page rules summary on the back? That could kill 2 birds with one stone, and a character sheet is essential.

If the fyler were printed on 11x17 paper (or the European equivalent), it could be folder into a four page booklet. That might be enough for a mini-adventure.

Tuck the character sheet into the flyer and you have an instant intro.

[Mysterioso]

I am not sure that debating the merits of CoC is relevant to this thread. (And, of course, I'm no fan of seeing one of my favourite games piled upon. )

The fact is, for whatever reason, Call of Cthulhu is popular.

The question is how to make non-CoC BRP more popular.

Personally, I think that something like a 'CoC' approach would be best. I'm repeating myself now, I know, but I think that a 'complete' BRP fantasy rulebook (perhaps CF will be this) and a 'complete' BRP science-fiction rulebook -- both 'complete' in the same way that the core CoC rulebook is (i.e., self-sufficient for playing the game) -- is the way to go.

I see this as exactly what is needed.

Fantasy rules, Science Fiction rules, and Historical rules should be seperate volumes. I'd buy the historical rules in a heartbeat and I suspect quite a few players of Call of Cthulhu who like myself have come over here feel the same way. The other settings do not interest me at this time but there maybe Fantasy players who want nothing to do with say the 1920s. For instance, Aces High as way to get to Wild West Cthulhu appeals to me but I don't know if I'll plunk for it as I need to get the main BRP book too.

Supplements should be sold the same way. All Fantasy adventures in one volume; all Science Fiction in another; Historical in another. If I am not interested in Fantasy or Science Fiction, do I really want to buy a volume for one Aces High adventure and maybe a Horror adventure? (A bit of an idea of what the heck these are about on the product description would be nice too.) For Historical, make sure that players of Call of Cthulhu know about them and make sure that they can be easily used by people who know BRP primarily through CoC. Many CoC keepers would buy them to have some non-Mythos adventures to run between Mythos investigations. For instance, I think a BRP supplement of 1920s and 1930s Private Eye adventures would really sell as it could be plugged into classic Call of Cthulhu games; something similar for the Victorian times (safari adventure, Northwest Frontier adventure, Amazon adventure, classic ghost story, etc.) would do the same for Cthulhu by Gaslight. For Fantasy supplements make sure they're stated so that they can be used with other Fantasy systems such as AD&D-- same with Science Fiction-- to pull in people from those systems.