How Could BRP Be More Popular...?

[Nightshade]

Im going to have to disagree with that statement, it may be true for GURPS since 4E came out but earlier GURPS editions had loads of specific settings both unique and licensed. They had two very different fantasy settings, plus some licensed fantasy settings (Conan, Horseclans are two that come to mind), also a bunch of historical settings which I would call settings but could see some calling them genre books, Ancient Greece, China, Russia, Vikings. That is just fantasy, it was similar in other genres. I'd guess settings made up a good 40-50% of thier books over the years.

Note that there wasn't any one setting that dominated the line, though.

interesting places to play (Cthulhu, Glorantha, Arthurian lore). RQ3 was arguably a much cleaner game than earlier versions, and should have sold better. I think one of the big reasons it didn't sell as well is because it was set in a very bland Fantasy Europe which probably didn't do much to draw in new players.

I don't think it was as much that as three factors:

1. For the time, the RQ3 books were very expensive, and did not appear of very high quality; Avalon Hill's boxed-set-focus did the game no good here.

2. Some of the changes made simply sat badly with some of the extent fanbase, and RQ was setting specific to a number of people (I wasn't one of them, but the Glorantha fans were heavily ensconced in it). So they'd effectively done the trick TSR did years later of splitting their fanbase.

3. The non-Gloranthan material produced for the game was, on the whole, mediocre to poor. While I don't think setting is the god some people seem to here, I'm not going to claim that supporting material doesn't matter. When you get something like Daughters of Darkness...

[p_clapham]

Heh, I prefered the Box set method over the books. My blue box set is in much better shape than my RQ3 core book.

[TrippyHippy]

And I'm not writing off your experience because its just yours; I'm writing it off because of having spent enough time around GURPS and (particularly) Hero fans to know its atypical. There are certainly people who like those game lines because of particular settings for them, but the majority of fans of those games like them because of the system, and any individual setting comes second.

Your experience isn't any more valid than mine.

And I'm sorry, but I just really can't agree; both of the games I referenced got their foot in the door well before they had any particular "setting" most people would identify; GURPS didn't even have a particular genre it was identified with early on (though it had a few most people didn't think it was ideal for).

Well the proof in the pudding is the gazzillion different generic systems that have been published and have gone the way of the dodo when they haven't been supported by a volume of supplements. If BRP didn't have all the supplements it has made already, and the promise of more to come, it would have disappeared off the shelves in no time, like yesterday's news. The same would be true of GURPS and HERO or Savage Worlds. There is no functional point to having a generic, universal system unless it supports and is supported by multiple settings.

Edited December 1, 2009 by TrippyHippy

[Guest Vile Traveller]

YThere is no functional point to having a generic, universal system unless it supports and is supported by multiple settings.

There's something I can agree with. Chaosium's own generic system (Worlds of Wonder) disappeared into the aether without follow-up. In fact, this isn't just the case with generic systems, even setting-specific games need constant publication of new material to remain "live". The fact that BRP is still around is more a testament to its fans' stubbornness than to marketing of the system, IMO.

Actually, this was one reason why I was reluctant to enter into Chaosium's license agreement when I was looking at producing something myself - I seriously doubted my ability to fulfil the ongoing publishing commitment which was built into the license. It's kind of ironic (and endearing, of course!) that Chaosium itself doesn't really operate in the same spirit ...

[frogspawner]

I submitted The Green as a monograph several weeks ago...

To me this sounds like bad news, I'm afraid. Things were much more hopeful when The Green was part of SharedWorld - but now that project (to create our own setting) seems to have stalled.

...but I have not heard anything back so far. It sounds as if the folks at Chaosium are pretty tied up... it would need a lot of help to bring it up to a professional level document...

Chaosium will not give it that help. Can't you get it 'back', so some of the undoubted talent around here can brush it up? (And then maybe also publish it...? >:-> )

[RosenMcStern]

2. Some of the changes made simply sat badly with some of the extent fanbase, and RQ was setting specific to a number of people (I wasn't one of them, but the Glorantha fans were heavily ensconced in it). So they'd effectively done the trick TSR did years later of splitting their fanbase.

It is really difficult to please the original fanbase. The real mistake was to limit the Glorantha content present in the boxed set, not to split the system and the setting.

3. The non-Gloranthan material produced for the game was, on the whole, mediocre to poor. While I don't think setting is the god some people seem to here, I'm not going to claim that supporting material doesn't matter. When you get something like Daughters of Darkness...

This is not true. The only bad supplements were Eldarad and Daughters of Darkness. Monster Coliseum was so-so, and Griffin Island, RQ Cities, Vikings and Land of Ninja were good.

[RosenMcStern]

The stuff you have produced so far is excellent, both the BRP and the mRuneQuest stuff. But at some point, Chaosium has to step up to the plate to support its own product. It cannot and should not rely solely on third party publishers.

It seems that without Lynn Willis Chaosium is not able to crank (pun intended) out more than a small number of quality supplements per year. Is it surprising that they are all for CoC ?

Now that he has had evidence that good supplements for BRP sell well, maybe Charlie will devote some of Chaosium's production capacity to BRP. But I would not be surprised if he chose to rely on third party materials for some more years.

Matt Sprange has made it clear that all licensed RQ supplements will have to stop sales in one year (this does NOT include OpenQuest). Don't you think this will make some more quality third party materials available?

[dragonewt]

Until they reply, "What's a Calocutoolu?"

Just play the following song to them and everything will be crystal clear...

My one liner to promote BRP would be something like:

"All you need to know is that your character has skills represented as a value out of one hundred, which is their percentage chance to succeed."

I am sure my wording can be improved.

[Puck]

To me this sounds like bad news, I'm afraid. Things were much more hopeful when The Green was part of SharedWorld - but now that project (to create our own setting) seems to have stalled.

Many times I have wished to cancel the whole publishing project and simply go back to the Shared World. The Green was much more fun as a group activity. It would also have been very nice to see it as a big flashy book like Rome or Merrie England. But once I made the pact with Chaosium, I felt that I should stick to my guns and see it through. Anyway, there is no way to go back now as I have turned it in. It would just be nice to hear that it has been received.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

This is not true. The only bad supplements were Eldarad and Daughters of Darkness. Monster Coliseum was so-so, and Griffin Island, RQ Cities, Vikings and Land of Ninja were good.

Sorry, I couldn't disagree more.

Vikings was brilliant!

[rust]

Vikings was brilliant!

Indeed, and I have to confess that I also like Eldarad ...

[Thalaba]

Actually, this was one reason why I was reluctant to enter into Chaosium's license agreement when I was looking at producing something myself - I seriously doubted my ability to fulfil the ongoing publishing commitment which was built into the license. It's kind of ironic (and endearing, of course!) that Chaosium itself doesn't really operate in the same spirit ...

I have thought the same thing. I'd like to do something with my campaign setting, but it's much too big and involved for a monograph, and frankly deserves better treatment than the $250 payment would warrant. But it would probably take me more than a year to bring it out (especially now that I've committed to another project) and there's no way I could produce enough documents in my spare time to satisfy the requirement. What's more, I have no publishing experience and I dislike jumping into things I know little about.

I rather like the idea of a BRP Publishing Collective where one could get advice and expertise. If such a 'collective' had a license from Chaosium, then individual amateur authors wouldn't have to worry about producing enough to satisfy the license as the collective could take care of this. Perhaps Chaosium would even agree to produce and retail the books. Authors and artists could contribute work, and perhaps a profit sharing deal could be worked out for payment for all who contributed. Sure, people still wouldn't get rich, but it might be a better alternative than the monograph route.

Or, perhaps simpler, the small companies that do have a license and are willing to accept work from outside authors could advertise the fact. To my knowledge Alephtar is the only company that seems willing to do this. This would at least facilitate the production of new material that could hit the normal distribution channels.

Back to the original question: How could BRP be more popular?

So far I think we've got three suggestions that are sticking: 1. More support product in the shops, and 2. A small, easy to distribute primer to hand out to newbies, and 3. Get the Quick Start Guide into broader distribution.

Any other suggestions? Could Chaosium sponsor people to run games at the local game shops, pimping the product? How about making the core rules really cheap - would that promote people to get it and then encourage sales of the support material? How much has Gurps made off the sales of their core rules compared to the support material? Any insight into this?

Thalaba

PS Vikings was one of my favourite supplements ever!

[cjbowser]

Any other suggestions? Could Chaosium sponsor people to run games at the local game shops, pimping the product? How about making the core rules really cheap - would that promote people to get it and then encourage sales of the support material? How much has Gurps made off the sales of their core rules compared to the support material? Any insight into this?

Thalaba

A couple quick things...

1. The do (or at least did) have people who run games at local shops/cons, The Chaosium Missionaries. During its heyday, it was for Call of Cthulhu, but at that time Call of Cthulhu was pretty much all that Chaosium had. Check with Dustin for more details.

2. Before you can make the rules cheap to get people to buy supplements, you have to have easily available supplements. Otherwise, Chaosium would probably be taking a loss on the book, where it can't afford to right now.

Edited December 1, 2009 by cjbowser
fixed bracket

[Guest Vile Traveller]

From what I see, most small or third-party publishers are one-man or two-man bands who deal with editing and layout while paying writers and artists to produce raw material. Most of that comes from my experience with Traveller - question is, does BRP have that kind of customer appeal to make it worthwhile? As it is, most of those guys are probably just using it to subsidise their hobby.

[RosenMcStern]

I rather like the idea of a BRP Publishing Collective where one could get advice and expertise. If such a 'collective' had a license from Chaosium, then individual amateur authors wouldn't have to worry about producing enough to satisfy the license as the collective could take care of this.

Being one who always intrudes into everyone else's business, I mentioned that this idea was in the air in my last email to Charlie and Dustin, and suggested that they started thinking about this. I have not had any reply about this so far.

Perhaps Chaosium would even agree to produce and retail the books.

Less likely.

Or, perhaps simpler, the small companies that do have a license and are willing to accept work from outside authors could advertise the fact. To my knowledge Alephtar is the only company that seems willing to do this.

AFAIK, there are only two licensees, Alephtar and Cubicle. And Cubicle is no longer small.

I have accepted all incoming submissions so far. However, my BRP allowance for 2010 is full now. I can accept submissions for publication in 2011.

I can see a third route to this: the "collective" gets a license, Alephtar does the editing and illustration and Cubicle, if Angus agrees, does the printing and marketing. But this would be just cheating on Chaosium to work around the yearly product limit.

I think we should just ask Charlie a very simple question: "How many [good] third party supplements do you wish to see next year, in total?" and calculate how many "slots" to assign to each publisher. Simple and transparent.

Note that this is the good moment to ask such a question, as it is exactly the moment I am planning what I will publish in 2010, and submitting it to Cubicle for making its own business plans for 2010 - as they will do the printing and marketing thing for me. So, if I were you - and I mean Nick, Rod, Thalaba, Vile and whoever else - I would make up my mind about the matter very quickly and drop a line to Charlie. Including also me, and possibly Angus, in the conversation if you like my "agreed number of supplements" idea.

How about making the core rules really cheap - would that promote people to get it and then encourage sales of the support material?

For a 400 page book, BRP _is_ cheap.

PS Vikings was one of my favourite supplements ever!

But let's not forget Land of Ninja!

question is, does BRP have that kind of customer appeal to make it worthwhile?

Yes. BRP is a system with a lot of fans. It just lacked the marketing SJ put into GURPS or WW into VtM.

Edited December 1, 2009 by RosenMcStern

[GianniVacca]

But let's not forget Land of Ninja!

Well, honestly, the chapter about Buddhism sucked.

[frogspawner]

Many times I have wished to cancel the whole publishing project and simply go back to the Shared World...

That's sad. Maybe we could get SharedWorld up-and-running again, and generate some product for 'The Collective'...?

Indeed, and I have to confess that I also like Eldarad ...

Pray tell, what was so bad about Daughters of Darkness, then? I never saw it.

So far I think we've got three suggestions that are sticking: 1. More support product in the shops, and 2. A small, easy to distribute primer to hand out to newbies, and 3. Get the Quick Start Guide into broader distribution.

Well, my attempt at No.2 is attached: a revised version of the original BRP 16-page Introductory Guide, shoe-horned into 4 pages. Not sure if it's really what's required, but it seems a good start. (And I'm not too hot on the new BRP RAW, so if anyone spots problems... you know what to do! )

BRP_Introductory_Guide_SJW.pdf

[rust]

Pray tell, what was so bad about Daughters of Darkness, then? I never saw it.

Nor did I, I was not really into Runequest at the time, and Eldarad and Vikings

were the only supplements I bought.

[seneschal]

I would say that BRP QuickStart is the introductory document. We've just got to get it more widely distributed, available from places other than just the Chaosium web site. The broader the distribution the better.

[frogspawner]

I would say that BRP QuickStart is the introductory document.

Well, I'd rather give newbies 4 pages instead of 48... (and preferably only 2!)

[Nightshade]

Your experience isn't any more valid than mine.

1. I'm not required to accept that.

2. You only quoted your personal reasons, not the reasons of other people. I'm doing the latter. Your personal reasons aren't a trend; large numbers of people's reasons are.

Well the proof in the pudding is the gazzillion different generic systems that have been published and have gone the way of the dodo when they haven't been supported by a volume of supplements. If BRP didn't have all the

So have a lot of setting specific systems that had fairly solid support. Some of them resurface from time to time, but when a game keeps crashing and burning, its not a sign that a setting will keep something alive by itself if people don't like the system.

supplements it has made already, and the promise of more to come, it would have disappeared off the shelves in no time, like yesterday's news. The same would be true of GURPS and HERO or Savage Worlds. There is no functional point to having a generic, universal system unless it supports and is supported by multiple settings.

But the key is "multiple"; its not any single setting that's necessary, nor is a flagship one.

[Nightshade]

There's something I can agree with. Chaosium's own generic system (Worlds of Wonder) disappeared into the aether without follow-up. In fact, this isn't just the case with generic systems, even setting-specific games need constant publication of new material to remain "live". The fact that BRP is still around is more a testament to its fans' stubbornness than to marketing of the system, IMO.

Note I've never argued support isn't necessary; I've argued against the idea people buy systems for settings. Those aren't the same statement. If the latter was the case, people would chase a setting across systems without concern for the system its attached to, and that's not been the case to any significant degree in the cases I'm aware of.

[Nightshade]

It is really difficult to please the original fanbase. The real mistake was to limit the Glorantha content present in the boxed set, not to split the system and the setting.

What I meant was that they effectively were selling Glorantha to a big part of their fanbase and Fantasy Earth to the others. While this sort of thing can kind of work sometimes it does dilute your product output.

This is not true. The only bad supplements were Eldarad and Daughters of Darkness. Monster Coliseum was so-so, and Griffin Island, RQ Cities, Vikings and Land of Ninja were good.

I agee about Griffin Island (in fact, I thought it was superior to its predecessor Griffin Mountain), and Vikings was pretty good, I think Land of the Ninja got distinctly mixed reactions at the time, and Monster Coliseum was, as you say, pretty so-so. Given Griffin Island came out pretty late in the day, I'd say that doesn't really contradict my statement; the support products for Fantasy Earth were at best a mixed bag (that even assuming you consider Griffin Island a support product for Fantasy Earth).

[SDLeary]

Well, I'd rather give newbies 4 pages instead of 48... (and preferably only 2!)

Agreed, but if its minimized to this extent, it should be more along the lines of a checklist, omitting narrative. "How to create a character" and whatnot. There is a Pendragon document like this floating around... now if I can only find it...

SDLeary

[frogspawner]

Agreed, but if its minimized to this extent, it should be more along the lines of a checklist, omitting narrative. "How to create a character" and whatnot. There is a Pendragon document like this floating around... now if I can only find it...

Well, my rip-off version of the original BRP Intro Guide (attached 9 posts up-thread) is 4 pages, and includes narrative, mechanics, examples and the mini-scenario. How good (or bad) is that? It'd be interesting to compare it with the Pendragon one.