How Could BRP Be More Popular...?

[SDLeary]

Well, my rip-off version of the original BRP Intro Guide (attached 9 posts up-thread) is 4 pages, and includes narrative, mechanics, examples and the mini-scenario. How good (or bad) is that? It'd be interesting to compare it with the Pendragon one.

It looks good, but very dense. If you could reduce the color (page density) then it would probably work.

I've found the Pendragon one. Attached for reference.

SDLeary

[TrippyHippy]

1. I'm not required to accept that.

2. You only quoted your personal reasons, not the reasons of other people. I'm doing the latter. Your personal reasons aren't a trend; large numbers of people's reasons are.

You are merely quoting your own anecdotes and assertions back at me. You are not quoting evidence. You are just too bloody minded to realise it.

[Atgxtg]

It is really difficult to please the original fanbase. The real mistake was to limit the Glorantha content present in the boxed set, not to split the system and the setting.

I don't think it was that difficult to please the fanbase. Chasoium had been doing a good job of it up until the AH deal.

I think the real mistake was that it took so long for and decent new Glorantha content to come out. Griffin Island was basically a reprint of Griffin Mountain, and Gods of Glorantha was a big let down after the detailed treatment fans were used to after Cults of Prax.

Glorantha fans had to settle for reprinted and sketchy material while seeing new and unrelated supplements (Monster Colosseum, Vikings, Land Of The Ninja) come out. It gave the fans the feeling that they were left twisting in the wind. A feeling that remains to this day.

Fans knew that they were being put "on the back burner" while AH was trying to go after the mainstream fantasy market. The result was predicable. RQ did gain some new players but lost a lot of it's original fanbase in the process.

If Glorantha had continued with the level of support it had under RQ2, then fans wouldn't have minded what other RQ products AH released. It was that we knew that any non-Glorantha supplement meant one less Gloranthan product.

As far as the supplements went, I'd say Land of the Ninja was quick a few steps below Giffin Island and Vikings in quality. It lacked the usual attention to detail associated with Chaosium. It gave little on the setting and culture. It contrasted very badly with Vikings.

Back to the main topic-it seems that BRP isn't going to become more popular. Chasoium seems to be unable to compete in the modern RPG market. They can survive by selling limited amounts of Cthulhu products to a niche market, but will never be a significant factor in RPGs they way the were in the 80s.

BRP is a game with something like 90% of its fans being old time Chaosium fans who migrated to it from RQ, Strombringer, Worlds of Wonder or some other game first printed over two decades ago.

We all hoped that BRP would herald in a new golden age for Chaosium, with a fair number of quality supplements being released on a regular schedule. No such luck.

About the only bright spot has been your company, which has managed to put out some nice supplements in a timely manner. I don't know why Chasoium can't do the same. But ultimately, if more people aren't made aware of BRP then it won't grow, and will eventually die off as it's fanbase ages.

[Rurik]

That's sad. Maybe we could get SharedWorld up-and-running again, and generate some product for 'The Collective'...?

I'm game for that. I've never abandoned it, I was just away from gaming for a few months but have some Shared World stuff on the back burner. This time of year is always very busy for me but I plan to get cooking again soon on a few projects and starting up some games.

I think I'll go make one of the semi-annual posts in the Shared World Forum now.

[Rurik]

Matt Sprange has made it clear that all licensed RQ supplements will have to stop sales in one year (this does NOT include OpenQuest). Don't you think this will make some more quality third party materials available?

While not quite kicking in your door in the middle of the night, burning all your hard drives and re-formatting all your printed inventory, that is still bit depressing. I wonder why they had such a change of heart.

So will there be a BRP Version of Stupor Mundi forthcoming?

[Atgxtg]

Rosen,

Despire what Matt Sprange has made clear, what does the MRQ OGL licence actually state?

I recall when OGL D&D came out and evenyone when OGL happy, I raised the thought of companies "pulling theplug" on OGL someone down the road, and everyone said that the companies couldn't do that because of the OGL license. Since OGL MRQ is mostly copied from OGL D&D, wouldn't the same conditions apply? If so, you should be able to print to your hearts content under the OGL license.

If not, don't ever print anything for a Mongoose Product again. Ever.

It's pretty obvious that the only benefit to pulling the licenses is to wipe out any third party companies. So why help them to cut your own throat?

If I were running a company with a bunch of OGL MRQ stuff, I'd have a lawyer check out the fine print and see just what you are actually entitled to do.

[wbcreighton]

I don't think it is the MRQ OGL that they can't use. It is the Runequest logo that they won't be able to use. Much the same as WotC pulled the d20 license not the OGL. But I'm not a gaming lawyer :innocent:

[Guest Vile Traveller]

That's basically my Understanding, too, based on Matt's post here:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=41563&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

[Atgxtg]

It would kinda suck if you happened to have a warehouse full of books printed with the RQ logo on them.

[Akrasia]

My two cents:

On the one hand, the BRP corebook is extremely intimidating to new comers. (I found it intimidating upon trying to reacquaint myself with BRP after a 15 year hiatus). On the other hand, the BRP quickstart rules are too 'minimal' (and free, which many people, incorrectly of course, assume means 'of little value').

What BRP needs, IMHO, are a set of 'medium-range' rulebooks -- books that include the 'quickstart' rules plus 50+ pages of genre-specific rules (magic or sorcery for fantasy, tech for sci-fi, etc.). A starting adventure or two would also be a great help.

A set of genre-specific 'corebooks' of medium length (100-190 pages), with correspondingly reasonable price ranges (~20 USD), and nice covers, would help induce people who are casually interested in BRP to check it out (something that the 400 page corebook will not do).

The key genres:

1. Fantasy. It simply is the most popular genre around. (Classic Fantasy is great, but not really appropriate for such a product, as it is not a stand alone product, and, moreover, cleaves too closely to the tropes of 1e AD&D.) BRP Fantasy should play to its strengths, namely, 'gritty' and 'dark' fantasy. In this respect, something like Elric/Stormbringer 5e would be great, with all the serial numbers filed off, of course, and with a more generic 'fantasy bestiary' added.

2. Science Fiction. Again, BRP should play to its strength, focusing on a setting closer to 'Firefly' than 'Star Wars', i.e., something relatively 'low key' and 'gritty' (no Jedi flying around with lightsabres). (Perhaps simply file the serial numbers of Ringworld? Or expand Future World? I never owned either game, so I don't know how easy that would be...)

1 & 2 are key, IMO (1 more than 2).

Other possibilities:

3. Espionage. Aside from Spycraft, is there an espionage RPG around these days?

4. Historical fantasy. The world of Classical Greece, say. Something like Mazes & Minotaurs, but grittier (less whimsical). Or perhaps Ancient Egypt. Or an alternative 'ancient world' in which Atlantis did not sink.

I could go on, but I think that you get the idea. Setting books that require one to own a 35 USD, 400-page long corebook simply are not going to draw anyone new in. You need something that will appeal to a casual shopper in a gamestore.

[RosenMcStern]

It would kinda suck if you happened to have a warehouse full of books printed with the RQ logo on them.

I have 25 of them and one year to exhaust the supply, so I definitely have no grudge whatsoever about this decision. I do not know what Sceaptune or PostMortem or Auxo have in stock, though.

Also, most publishers use the RQ Logo, not only the OGL. Only some of them (I can think of two, one being Newt) have their own variant, without the logo. So this will impact most third party publishers.

But impacts do not necessarily need to be negative.

[RosenMcStern]

What BRP needs, IMHO, are a set of 'medium-range' rulebooks -- books that include the 'quickstart' rules plus 50+ pages of genre-specific rules (magic or sorcery for fantasy, tech for sci-fi, etc.). A starting adventure or two would also be a great help.

A set of genre-specific 'corebooks' of medium length (100-190 pages), with correspondingly reasonable price ranges (~20 USD), and nice covers, would help induce people who are casually interested in BRP to check it out (something that the 400 page corebook will not do).

I am not so sure this is true. Elric, CoC, Nephilim and RQ went this way and they were overtaken by GURPS, which works like BRP works now. Let us assume you are right for the present time, however. But I doubt Chaosium will want to go this route.

1. Fantasy. It simply is the most popular genre around. (Classic Fantasy is great, but not really appropriate for such a product, as it is not a stand alone product, and, moreover, cleaves too closely to the tropes of 1e AD&D.) BRP Fantasy should play to its strengths, namely, 'gritty' and 'dark' fantasy. In this respect, something like Elric/Stormbringer 5e would be great, with all the serial numbers filed off, of course, and with a more generic 'fantasy bestiary' added.

Which setting, though? There is a bit of inflation in the fantasy camp.

2. Science Fiction.

Nick Middleton might propose a solution here.

3. Espionage. Aside from Spycraft, is there an espionage RPG around these days?

Berlin61 is nice but it is still a monograph.

4. Historical fantasy. The world of Classical Greece, say. Something like Mazes & Minotaurs, but grittier (less whimsical). Or perhaps Ancient Egypt. Or an alternative 'ancient world' in which Atlantis did not sink.

We have three historical fantasy supplements for BRP/MRQ already in print. A fourth is entering playtest now. BRP Egypt is already written, it needs only translation into English, and both Chaosium and I have contacted the author about a possible reprint of the Stratelibri classic. So this niche is covered.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Not being able to use the logo pretty much makes SRDs and OGLs useless. The main idea is to associate your product with a mainstream product, and ride its coat-tails to fame and fortune. Without the logo, you may as well write your own rules, or at least re-write someone else's so they no longer violate copyright. An SRD is really little else but a list of terms which you can use in your product without fear of litigation. However, many if not most of those terms (in the Mongoose Traveller SRD, for example) are so generic they could never be successfully copyrighted anyway.

So, yes, the loss of the MRQ logo license will hurt 3rd party publishers, who will either make it on their own (i.e. no longer 3rd party) or fade away.

[RosenMcStern]

So, yes, the loss of the MRQ logo license will hurt 3rd party publishers, who will either make it on their own (i.e. no longer 3rd party) or fade away.

I can see more options. Mongoose has never stated to be unwilling to negotiate paid licenses. And the SRD without logo is a viable option, for the ENGLISH market. In fact, I would be tempt to just remove the logo and go on with what I have, if this did not mean being unable to translate it into my own language.

But my guess is that most products will simply cease to exist. I hope Lost Isles will stay, at least.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I can see more options. Mongoose has never stated to be unwilling to negotiate paid licenses.

That's true, they do so already under their "Flaming Cobra" thingummy.

[GianniVacca]

BRP Egypt is already written, it needs only translation into English, and both Chaosium and I have contacted the author about a possible reprint of the Stratelibri classic.

Excellent piece of news. This was one of my favourite Italian BRP supplements.

[RosenMcStern]

Excellent piece of news. This was one of my favourite Italian BRP supplements.

Don't hold your breath. The schedules are tight now so it is impossible to tell when Angiolino's book could be revised and republished. It was just brainstorming, and giving Akrasia a brief summary of what is already available in a format or another.

[Atgxtg]

I have 25 of them and one year to exhaust the supply, so I definitely have no grudge whatsoever about this decision. I do not know what Sceaptune or PostMortem or Auxo have in stock, though.

Also, most publishers use the RQ Logo, not only the OGL. Only some of them (I can think of two, one being Newt) have their own variant, without the logo. So this will impact most third party publishers.

But impacts do not necessarily need to be negative.

How is the new policy going to affect your future products?

[Akrasia]

I am not so sure this is true. Elric, CoC, Nephilim and RQ went this way and they were overtaken by GURPS, which works like BRP works now...

Is GURPS really doing well these days? I don't see much for GURPS 4e. (I'm not saying that it isn't doing well -- I don't know. It just seems to have faded away, IME.) I see as much CoC material as GURPS 4e material in most game stores.

Also GURPS 3e had a few 'stand alone' games (e.g., Hellboy, Discworld, irrc). So having a big 'generic toolbox' book and a few smaller, self-standing game books is not impossible.

Also, I thought that Elric/Stormbringer and RuneQuest were successful, but simply mishandled?

Just to be clear: I think that the BRP corebook is great. My point simply was that it is rather intimidating to newcomers.

Which setting, though? There is a bit of inflation in the fantasy camp.

I was thinking of a 'genre' book -- gritty 'swords & sorcery' -- not tied to any specific setting.

There are plenty of fantasy RPGs out there, but most are 'high fantasy' in nature. Only a few try to reflect the 'swords & sorcery' genre, and one (Mongoose's Conan) apparently is going away.

We have three historical fantasy supplements for BRP/MRQ already in print. A fourth is entering playtest now. BRP Egypt is already written, it needs only translation into English, and both Chaosium and I have contacted the author about a possible reprint of the Stratelibri classic. So this niche is covered.

I'm new here, so I was not aware of this. Sorry. What are these three supplements? I know about Rome, but I thought that was 'non-fantasy'?

Edited December 2, 2009 by Akrasia
clarification

[RosenMcStern]

Is GURPS really doing well these days? I don't see much for GURPS 4e. (I'm not saying that it isn't doing well -- I don't know. It just seems to have faded away, IME.) I see as much CoC material as GURPS 4e material in most game stores.

Unexpectedly, BRP has almost filled the gap. I never thought I would live to see this moment. But it happened. Which means I am getting old.

Also, I thought that Elric/Stormbringer and RuneQuest were successful, but simply mishandled?

How true...

But I doubt making a generic fantasy would be so appealing. There are dozens of them out there. RuneQuest is filling that niche for d100 at the moment.

I'm new here, so I was not aware of this. Sorry. What are these three supplements? I know about Rome, but I thought that was 'non-fantasy'?

Rome is mildly fantasy. You can use moderate magic if you wish, but it is not recommended. I suppose you already found Merrie England (I posted more appropriate links), and the third is Stupor Mundi, but this one is getting old. Tian Xi (Imperial China) is in the making, and Crusaders of the Amber Coast - well, guess what will happen to it?

[Akrasia]

... RuneQuest is filling that niche for d100 at the moment...

Good point.

[Nightshade]

You are merely quoting your own anecdotes and assertions back at me. You are not quoting evidence. You are just too bloody minded to realise it.

You can chose to not believe I've encountered large numbers of GURPS and Hero players who play for the system as you like, but at that point you've effectively said I'm a liar and any conversation between the two of us is pointless. The difference is, I'm not doing that to you; all you've said is why you have played those games. My statement is that if you take both of us in good faith, your statement is less relevant than mine, because yours involves smaller numbers. If you don't take us in good faith, anything we say is irrelevant both to us and anyone else.

Past that, if you provable statements are the only evidence you want, no one can bring anything to this, because provable reasons people buy games are not available to anyone.

So basically it looks to me like you're either using a double standard, or just holding your own statements up as a higher value. In either case, I'd rethink your position or ask yourself why you get in a discussion about this sort of topic at all.

[Nightshade]

I am not so sure this is true. Elric, CoC, Nephilim and RQ went this way and they were overtaken by GURPS, which works like BRP works now. Let us assume you are right for the present time, however. But I doubt Chaosium will want to go this route.

There's been a conflict in the field on this for years. On one hand, some people dislike buying a big book containing a lot of material they'll never use; on the other, people really hate having to buy multiple books that contain much of the same material. I think the concensus has been that the former is the lesser of the two evils, but I don't think that means the the people who object to it have gone away.

[TrippyHippy]

You can chose to not believe I've encountered large numbers of GURPS and Hero players who play for the system as you like, but at that point you've effectively said I'm a liar and any conversation between the two of us is pointless. The difference is, I'm not doing that to you; all you've said is why you have played those games. My statement is that if you take both of us in good faith, your statement is less relevant than mine, because yours involves smaller numbers. If you don't take us in good faith, anything we say is irrelevant both to us and anyone else.

Past that, if you provable statements are the only evidence you want, no one can bring anything to this, because provable reasons people buy games are not available to anyone.

So basically it looks to me like you're either using a double standard, or just holding your own statements up as a higher value. In either case, I'd rethink your position or ask yourself why you get in a discussion about this sort of topic at all.

I haven't called you a liar. I've merely pointed out that you are dismissing my views - they aren't just *my* views either, they represent the views of the groups I've played with - whilst holding up your own opinions as fact, when they are not.

The factual evidence I have already presented, which you didn't actually counter was that every successful generic game system out there is supported by a vast amount of supplements, and multiple settings. The ones that don't do not last long. You appear to want to assert that the reason all these gamers play these systems is because of the system alone. What I'm saying is that a sizeable proportion, including myself and the groups I've belonged to, actually get 'hooked' into systems by particular settings first.

Indeed, with the exception of GURPS, I'd also add that pretty much all successful generic systems - HERO (Champions), Savage Worlds (Deadlands), Unisystem (Witchcraft, AFMBE), D20 (D&D) and indeed BRP (RQ) itself have actually evolved after the successful establishment of rules used in a setting based game first. And even in the case of GURPS, it was using licenced settings and the like from the very early days. Cool settings attract gamers in ways that sophisticated systems do not. Heck, how do you account for the incredible success of Vampire: the Masquerade and the OWoD, when it utilised one of the most clunky unplayable systems around? Ditto, RIFTS?

Edited December 2, 2009 by TrippyHippy

[rust]

This discussion begins to look like a debate about which pair of legs of a

horse is the more important one, those on the right side or those on the

left side ... :ohwell: