Is there a top limit for spirit magic spells?

[Brootse]

I don't think that I've seen larger than six point spells in official sources. Is that the maximum spirit magic spell level?

[dumuzid]

Using Call on Stars from the Red Book of Magic you can get spirit magic quite a bit stronger than that.  The spell's write-up mentions spending 4RP to get Bladesharp 8.

For conventional spirit magic, it seems like the only hard limit is how much CHA you have to store spells with.

[Brootse]

15 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Using Call on Stars from the Red Book of Magic you can get spirit magic quite a bit stronger than that.  The spell's write-up mentions spending 4RP to get Bladesharp 8.

For conventional spirit magic, it seems like the only hard limit is how much CHA you have to store spells with.

Yeah, I've wondered about that too. Glorantha Bestiary p. 167-168 state that animal spirits have their CHA amount of spells, and that crustacean spirits have only Protection. On p. 165 on the Random Spirit table an average spirit would have 3d6 CHA. Which would mean that getting a strong Protection spell would be rather easy.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

I don't think that I've seen larger than six point spells in official sources. Is that the maximum spirit magic spell level?

No, that limit existed in RQ2, but has been gone since then.

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

For conventional spirit magic, it seems like the only hard limit is how much CHA you have to store spells with.

That, and the expense to learn.  Remember that each point has a cumulative cost to learn (i.e. effort of shamans or priests to teach/obtain).  A Bladesharp 6 is: 50+100+150+200+250+300 = 1050L.  Bladesharp 7 = 1400L.  Bladesharp 8 = 1800L.  Bladesharp 9 = 2250L.  Bladesharp 10 = 2750L.  Just becomes prohibitive for most folk.

[Kloster]

22 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Just becomes prohibitive for most folk.

Except if you count a shaman among your friends (or better if you are a shaman yourself). In that case, the cost is whatever he asks.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

In that case, the cost is whatever he asks.

The tooth of a giant, a silken thread from Cragspider, a flower from the Earth Mother picked from her Garden, and the tears of the Sun.  Piece of cake! 🙂

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

In that case, the cost is whatever he asks.

Unless a cult shaman.

[AndreJarosch]

The spirit that teaches the spell will be more powerful depending on the points on the spell it has. 

I wouldn´t want to mess around with a Bladesharp 10 spirit... and even a shaman might get into problems. 

[Kloster]

54 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

The spirit that teaches the spell will be more powerful depending on the points on the spell it has. 

I wouldn´t want to mess around with a Bladesharp 10 spirit... and even a shaman might get into problems. 

It was true with RQ3 (1D3 POW per spell point for Spell spirits) but with RQG, POW of spirits does not depends on the power of the spell he knows.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Unless a cult shaman.

This should be written in the rules (or at least in the Well).

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The tooth of a giant, a silken thread from Cragspider, a flower from the Earth Mother picked from her Garden, and the tears of the Sun.  Piece of cake! 🙂

More difficult, but much less expensive than paying the cost of a Bladesharp 10 (2750 L if I'm not wrong). And wonderful role playing experiences.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Kloster
add calculation

[Runeblogger]

If I'm not wrong, Muriah the shaman knows Bladesharp-8 in the book Shadows on the Borderlands. That's one reason why she wins all duels to be leader of her band of broos. 😮

Edited February 22, 2021 by Runeblogger

[HreshtIronBorne]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

That, and the expense to learn.  Remember that each point has a cumulative cost to learn (i.e. effort of shamans or priests to teach/obtain).  A Bladesharp 6 is: 50+100+150+200+250+300 = 1050L.  Bladesharp 7 = 1400L.  Bladesharp 8 = 1800L.  Bladesharp 9 = 2250L.  Bladesharp 10 = 2750L.  Just becomes prohibitive for most folk.

Where is this elaborated? All i could find in the core rulebook was a chart saying 50L per point or somesuch. 

[Kloster]

4 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Where is this elaborated? All i could find in the core rulebook was a chart saying 50L per point or somesuch. 

1 point is 1*50=50

2 points is (1+2)*50=150 (you purchase 1 point and 2 points spells)

3 points is (1+2+3)*50=300 (you purchase 1 point, 2 points and 3 points spells)

n points is 0.5*n*(n+1)*basic cost (50 for bladesharp) because you purchase 1 point, 2 points, ..., and n points spell.

[HreshtIronBorne]

Where does it state you keep paying for the lower points? I can't find it in spirit magic or elsewhere.

Why isn't Bladesharp 6 300 L, that's what the chart seems to indicate. 6*50 = 300?

Edited February 22, 2021 by HreshtIronBorne

[AndreJarosch]

If a 

12 minutes ago, Kloster said:

1 point is 1*50=50

2 points is (1+2)*50=150 (you purchase 1 point and 2 points spells)

3 points is (1+2+3)*50=300 (you purchase 1 point, 2 points and 3 points spells)

n points is 0.5*n*(n+1)*basic cost (50 for bladesharp) because you purchase 1 point, 2 points, ..., and n points spell.

I find your way of calculateing reasonable, but it isn´t what the RAW say. 

50 L per point: 

1 point is 50. 
2 points is 100. 
3 points is 150. 
etc. 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by AndreJarosch

[Dissolv]

The Windsword was Bladesharp 10, was it not?  Somebody learned that somewhere. 

[AndreJarosch]

If cult members learn their spirit magic from Priests and Runelords the maximum they can learn is what their teachers know. 
If someone learns from a Shaman, sky is the limit (you might have to pay huge amounts to the shaman to get the spell you desire from the spirit world). 

[HreshtIronBorne]

16 minutes ago, Kloster said:

24 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Where is this elaborated? All i could find in the core rulebook was a chart saying 50L per point or somesuch. 

1 point is 1*50=50

2 points is (1+2)*50=150 (you purchase 1 point and 2 points spells)

3 points is (1+2+3)*50=300 (you purchase 1 point, 2 points and 3 points spells)

n points is 0.5*n*(n+1)*basic cost (50 for bladesharp) because you purchase 1 point, 2 points, ..., and n points spell.

Are PCs obligated to learn the points of a spell in increments like that? Bladesharp 6 takes 6 weeks of doing nothing but dancing in your underpants with your priest, and ALSO costs the ransom of petty nobles?

 

Can someone walk up and just pay for a Bladsharp 6 and learn it in a week for 300L? That is definitely how I interpreted the RAW.

[David Scott]

7 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Why isn't Bladesharp 6 300 L, that's what the chart seems to indicate. 6*50 = 300?

Clarified here: 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-12-spirit-magic/

Scroll down to Spirit Magic Spells Table (page 257).

[HreshtIronBorne]

There is literally 0 indication in the core rulebook that there is such a complicated interaction with the learning of spirit magic. How does a 6 point spell cost 6 weeks and a Noble's ransom? You literally can't even be a useful member of society. 

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

The Windsword was Bladesharp 10, was it not?  Somebody learned that somewhere. 

Yes - and it is pretty much a one-of-a-kind artifact (regardless of the great number of Balazar's axes running around in player possession, and nowadays hippogriff steeds).

Spirit magic is capped by CHA and by available MP (which is less of a problem with crystals or matrices).

In order to make an enchantment, the enchanter needs to know that spirit spell at least at the level he enchants it. Having one spell at 6 or more pretty much takes up half of your spell potential (unless you raise your POW to species max, which lets you have three spells at 7 points.

Few temples have access to spell spirits that powerful. Those which do have limited slots to use them for teaching (40 times a year). You can pay the standard fare, and wait for your inoculation, or you can over-pay and hope to get your shot earlier.

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Bladesharp 6 takes 6 weeks of doing nothing but dancing in your underpants with your priest

Takes one week, regardless of mp cost. See RQG page 277.

[David Scott]

If you have questions about this ask over on the Q&A thread

[HreshtIronBorne]

The well of daliath link states that you HAVE to buy all the levels of spells, or is that just for the pricing? I find this incredibly confusing. Why do I have to go to a website tonfigure out rules that were literally never printed. Is there any indication in the actual rulebook that you have to pay for each level of spell separately?