Is there a top limit for spirit magic spells?

[Godlearner]

The most I seen cast in a game is 12 point spirit spell, but that was with a Focusing crystal. The biggest issue with something like that is that it take a several rounds to cast and a lot of magic points.

[PhilHibbs]

44 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Why do I have to go to a website tonfigure out rules that were literally never printed. Is there any indication in the actual rulebook that you have to pay for each level of spell separately?

They are on a web site because they were not printed. That's the whole point of the Well of Daliath, clarifications and corrections that are not in the books.

Personally, I'm not a fan of it. I'm not a fan of fixed costs at all. Everything is negotiable. Rewards for service and favours, that sort of thing.

[Bill the barbarian]

14 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The most I seen cast in a game is 12 point spirit spell, but that was with a Focusing crystal. The biggest issue with something like that is that it take a several rounds to cast and a lot of magic points.

Emphasis mine

Should only take 11 SRs plus DEX SRM (a bit over a melee round) and 12 MPs (this could be interpreted as lots I suppose).

Edited February 22, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Godlearner]

4 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Emphasis mine

Should only take 11 SRs plus DEX SRM (a bit over a melee round) and 12 MPs (this could be interpreted as lots I suppose).

Yes, more than a round and a lot of magic points. Since spirit magic in RQG does not last as long as it used to, you better win that fight fast and hope nothing else comes after you.

[Lordabdul]

32 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Personally, I'm not a fan of it. I'm not a fan of fixed costs at all. Everything is negotiable. Rewards for service and favours, that sort of thing.

Yeah but you still need to have a vague idea of what the base price is. That's how I use those price tables: I can start the negotiation at "rulebook price + 30%" (or more) if the NPC merchant is particularly greedy or doesn't like the PCs, for instance. I think it would be worse if the rulebook did not give any price because then you have zero idea where to start.

(and yes, it's not just coins being exchanged, especially for higher prices... a good part of the price would be an exchange of cows or items or favours or whatever... doesn't change the utility of the table, and the need to understand how to calculate prices of multi-MP spells)

Edited February 22, 2021 by lordabdul

[PhilHibbs]

Yes, the radically shorter duration does make big spells less valuable, as most variable spells are temporal. Unless you have that shamanic ability...

I remember putting together a collection of extra spells many years ago, and I threw in a 6-point instant spell, I don't have the document any more but let me see if I can rewrite it from memory.

Annihilate
6 points, touch, instant
Cast on a projectile made of silver, this spell replaces the damage done by with the caster's POW in hit points and ignores non-magical armour, enchanted rune metal protects normally. The projectile can impale. On an arrow, only the head needs to be silver. The projectile must strike the target on the same or subsequent round that the spell is cast.

Edited February 22, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

The well of daliath link states that you HAVE to buy all the levels of spells, or is that just for the pricing? I find this incredibly confusing. Why do I have to go to a website tonfigure out rules that were literally never printed. Is there any indication in the actual rulebook that you have to pay for each level of spell separately?

I agree it's confusing. I had not understood it that way either. I'm even impressed someone had the idea of asking this question in the Q&A thread.

On the one hand: learning Heal 6 when you didn't know Heal before only takes one week, indicating you're learning only one spell. On the other hand, you pay a cumulative price, seemingly paying for 6 spells at the same time.

And sure, I understand it's not "paying for 6 spells", it's just that the cost of the spell increases more than proportionally with its size (which sounds like good economics to me), but I think the spell cost table on p257 should be fixed to address the issue. Technically, it should say "50L x the triangular number of the spell level" but that may not be the most friendly way to describe it 😄 

Edited February 22, 2021 by lordabdul

[Bill the barbarian]

32 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

. Technically, it should say "50L x the triangular number of the spell level" but that may not be the most friendly way to describe it 😄 

None the less you are certainly correct, and a little clarity would be nice. We need a new core book and a bit of an eye to good explanations and easy to grok rules.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah but you still need to have a vague idea of what the base price is. That's how I use those price tables: I can start the negotiation at "rulebook price + 30%" (or more) if the NPC merchant is particularly greedy or doesn't like the PCs, for instance. I think it would be worse if the rulebook did not give any price because then you have zero idea where to start.

We do know the base price per point for the variable spells.  The main question is whether the pricing is multiplicative or cumulative. 

RBoM adds two points beyond what is noted in RQG.  From p.108: Spells of 250 L or less are considered common spells and can be easily taught by a shaman. Spells with a cost greater than that are uncommon and are typically secrets of a specific cult.  To teach an uncommon spell, a shaman must first undergo a quest in the Spirit World to find that spirit.

And from p.107: As the specialists in communicating with the Spirit World, shamans can teach any nonvariable spells costing 250 L or less, or variable spells up to 6 points.

And from p.105: Rune cults can teach any spirit magic spell known to their Rune Masters.... Rune cults teach spirit magic to any lay member or initiate who pays the temple. Rune cults typically offer cult spirit magic to their initiates at a discount (usually at half the price demanded of mere lay members) and may even teach certain spells for free.

None of those answer the question of variable spell pricing calculation, though that was addressed in the RQ Q&A and posted to Well of Daliath.

Personally, I'm inclined to handle it this way:

1) If you're getting a new spell, you use the multiplier assuming someone knows it or can get it from a spirit.  Up to 6 points is common enough to do that.  You want Bladesharp 4?  It's base is 200L. 

2) If you're going from one level of a variable spell to another, it's cumulative.  You're not paying by increments, you're paying for the new spell which is effectively a distinct spell.  You have Bladesharp 4 and want Bladesharp 5?  That's 250L.  You have Heal 4 and want Heal 6?  That's 300L. 

I think that fits well with the RAW text, addresses what happens when you want to go up incrementally, and keeps the pricing for anything of 6 points or less at a potentially affordable level for adventurers gaining some treasures and rewards. 

[Lordabdul]

13 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Personally, I'm inclined to handle it this way:

I don't think I understood your description here... Getting Bladesharp 4 is 4*50L=200L. Getting Bladesharp 5 from Bladesharp 4 is 5*50L=250L. That seems to be the same price as just getting Bladesharp 5 without knowing lower levels. What's "cumulative" here? It sounds like you just do the "50L per point" from the rulebook? What are you doing that's different?

Edited February 22, 2021 by lordabdul

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Getting Bladesharp 4 is 4*50L=200L. Getting Bladesharp 5 from Bladesharp 4 is 5*50L=250L. That seems to be the same price as just getting Bladesharp 5 without knowing lower levels. What's "cumulative" here? It sounds like you just do the "50L per point" from the rulebook? What are you doing that's different?

You've already paid out the 200L for Bladesharp 4.  Now you must shell out 250L for Bladesharp 5.  That is cumulative - altogether you've spent 450L.

If you can only afford small increments, it gets very expensive.  Buy Bladesharp 1 here, Bladesharp 2 there, etc. you're paying 50L + 100L +150L ...

If you can afford to pay the temple/shaman for a larger spell sooner, then you have less incremental, cumulative costs.

Edited February 22, 2021 by jajagappa

[Lordabdul]

13 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

If you can afford to pay the temple/shaman for a larger spell sooner, then you have less incremental, cumulative costs.

Ah ok so you're basically "playing out" the cumulative costs. That is, if the players buy the different levels over time during the campaign, that effectively makes them pay the cumulative costs? But if they're rich enough to buy the high level on the first purchase, they short-cut this and pay a lot less overall?

Well, I think that's still the simple "50L * level" of RAW 😄

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, Kloster said:

This should be written in the rules (or at least in the Well).

Shaman in cults usually act as priests so those rules apply as well:

Aldrya: Not specifically stated.

Daka Fal: Daka Fal priests are also shamans

Waha: Shamans serve as priests for the Waha cult

Yelm: Not specifically stated for Golden Bow

 

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, Dissolv said:

The Windsword was Bladesharp 10, was it not?

In Griffin Island it was Bladesharp 10 matrix, but was missing the Truestone and other features, in Griffin Mountain it has a bladesharp 4 matrix.

[Dissolv]

Ah yes.  A bit of a mixed bag on which would be considered more powerful by a random player.  Certainly the Griffin Island one was a campaign changer.  (But in a much lower magic environment, so it was like finding Excalibur).  In Glorantha, especially at the power levels of RQ:G, that seems to lose some of the impact of a "fabled weapon forged to fight chaos".   I mean, which chaos exactly?   Some random young spawn broos without access to (non-chaotic) magic or metal?  Sure.   Ralzakark and the horrors of Dorastor?  Maybe not quite enough to tip your Rune Lord over the top there chief. 

[tnli]

I generally build my spirits as having at least about 3 points of POW per point of their highest-costing spirit magic spell. (Or, in other words, I don't usually give them higher point spells than their POW/3. Some exceptions do exist, when logic or story would so dictate.) 

You're the GM, do as you like.

[davecake]

On 2/23/2021 at 1:40 AM, Kloster said:

It was true with RQ3 (1D3 POW per spell point for Spell spirits) but with RQG, POW of spirits does not depends on the power of the spell he knows.

Rather than a hard and fast direct rule, it is a trend  - usually, a more powerful spirit will be of higher POW, but not 100% of the time. And spell spirits (and the other very abstract types of spirit) no longer exist as such. If a GM wants to discourage very powerful spirit magic spells, then they should make them only possessed by very high POW spirits. If the GM is fine with very powerful spirit magic spells, then make spirits who can teach them more common, and then they only have themselves to complain to if it turns out that Bladesharp 10 upsets the balance of their game. 

 

[Shiningbrow]

On 2/22/2021 at 11:14 PM, Kloster said:

In that case, the cost is whatever he asks.

A shrubbery?

[Shiningbrow]

As for gaining access to higher level spells - I'd suggest at least 2 other options (with a third open to debate).

Firstly, for a Rune Lord - Divine Intervention... Spend a point of POW (and temporarily lose some RPs - assuming more than 10, or it's more POW), and your God gives you a higher spell. How high...???

Secondly, Summon Cult Spirit... more POWerful spirits should have higher variable spells (cult only, obviously), and should be willing to share the knowledge.

Thirdly, as a Heroquest reward (when the rules finally come out) would seem to be legitimate  (again, how high do you go?)

[Godlearner]

Quote

Secondly, Summon Cult Spirit... more POWerful spirits should have higher variable spells (cult only, obviously), and should be willing to share the knowledge.

Except that in RQG you do not learn spirit spells from spirits, but from Rune Masters of the cult and they can only teach you what they know.

[PhilHibbs]

43 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Except that in RQG you do not learn spirit spells from spirits, but from Rune Masters of the cult and they can only teach you what they know.

You can learn spells from spirits. If you defeat a spirit in spirit combat, you can force it to give you one of its spells. All you need is a cult spirit that knows the spell, a means of initiating spirit combat, and it can be done. My group did that out on the road. Two of their swords broke and they had no opportunity to repair them, so Harmast summoned an Issaries cult spirit, Vishi Dunn discorporated and engaged it in spirit combat, and learned Repair. They could continue pursuing the bad guys with swords more or less intact.

[Godlearner]

4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can learn spells from spirits. If you defeat a spirit in spirit combat, you can force it to give you one of its spells. All you need is a cult spirit that knows the spell, a means of initiating spirit combat, and it can be done. My group did that out on the road. Two of their swords broke and they had no opportunity to repair them, so Harmast summoned an Issaries cult spirit, Vishi Dunn discorporated and engaged it in spirit combat, and learned Repair. They could continue pursuing the bad guys with swords more or less intact.

LOL, that's more of a mugging than learning.

[PhilHibbs]

35 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

LOL, that's more of a mugging than learning.

Yeah I told them that it's not the right way to do it and they'd have to make amends when they got back to the temple, but I didn't give them a hard time in the end 'cos they came back in triumph.

[Shiningbrow]

On 2/24/2021 at 10:44 PM, Godlearner said:

Except that in RQG you do not learn spirit spells from spirits, but from Rune Masters of the cult and they can only teach you what they know.

While that hasn't actually been detailed in the books, I'd suggest that cult spirits normally teach the Rune Masters the spells (after all, they have to get it somehow too...).

And, I can see the Command Cult Spirit spell being used to have it attack an initiate (or above) specifically in order to do the spell teaching.

If we don't assume this, then we have to find a viable answer to "how does a Rune Master learn a new spell? Especially if another Rune Master with the spells isn't around?" I'd like to think their god and the associated spirits would actually come in useful here!

[Godlearner]

I asked this exact question before and your suggestion is basically 'YGWV'.