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Is there a top limit for spirit magic spells?


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2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

... And, I can see the Command Cult Spirit spell being used to have it attack an initiate (or above) specifically in order to do the spell teaching ...

Or even simpler -- Command Cult Spirit to "go surrender <spell X> to that person."  No combat per se, but it technically fulfills the stipulation that the spirit has "lost" (surrendered).

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

... If we don't assume this, then we have to find a viable answer to "how does a Rune Master learn a new spell? Especially if another Rune Master with the spells isn't around?" I'd like to think their god and the associated spirits would actually come in useful here!

Well, if there isn't another Rune Master with desired "Spell X", then maybe the wannabe X-caster is out of luck?  It  is  one answer.  Arguably, it's the closest to the RAW.

Of course, the Rune Master who wants to learn the spell could always go bargain with a Shaman.  That's another RAW-style answer.

I could see there being a ritual whereby a Rune Master could contact their god and say "Please send a spirit from whom I can learn to cast Cult Magic X" ... I know of no such ritual (or similar rule) in the RAW, but YGWV.

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We do know the base price per point for the variable spells.  The main question is whether the pricing is multiplicative or cumulative.  RBoM adds two points beyond what is noted in RQG.  From p.

I generally build my spirits as having at least about 3 points of POW per point of their highest-costing spirit magic spell. (Or, in other words, I don't usually give them higher point spells than the

The tooth of a giant, a silken thread from Cragspider, a flower from the Earth Mother picked from her Garden, and the tears of the Sun.  Piece of cake! 🙂

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

...

If we don't assume this, then we have to find a viable answer to "how does a Rune Master learn a new spell? Especially if another Rune Master with the spells isn't around?" I'd like to think their god and the associated spirits would actually come in useful here!

A Rune Master was not a Rune Master since his Initiation into the respective cult. So he has learned the respective spirit spell sometime on his way to becoming a Rune Master from another Rune Master - maybe at a different temple, and maybe even after he has become a Rune Master. That a Rune Master was not available over all this time is quite improbable. And if it was the case indeed, than he was not able to learn that spell, and therefore he is not able to teach it.

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16 hours ago, g33k said:

Or even simpler -- Command Cult Spirit to "go surrender <spell X> to that person."  No combat per se, but it technically fulfills the stipulation that the spirit has "lost" (surrendered).

I certainly wouldn't disagree. 

 

16 hours ago, g33k said:

Well, if there isn't another Rune Master with desired "Spell X", then maybe the wannabe X-caster is out of luck?  It  is  one answer.  Arguably, it's the closest to the RAW.

Of course, the Rune Master who wants to learn the spell could always go bargain with a Shaman.  That's another RAW-style answer.

I could see there being a ritual whereby a Rune Master could contact their god and say "Please send a spirit from whom I can learn to cast Cult Magic X" ... I know of no such ritual (or similar rule) in the RAW, but YGWV.

RAW now - yes. Makes one wonder why it changed.

 

 

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On 2/28/2021 at 4:16 AM, Shiningbrow said:

If we don't assume this, then we have to find a viable answer to "how does a Rune Master learn a new spell? Especially if another Rune Master with the spells isn't around?" I'd like to think their god and the associated spirits would actually come in useful here!

Given the magical richness of the setting and the number of temples, and most cults are only a step away from a shaman cult, so I can't see how this is an issue. Orlanth has Kolat as an associate, Ernalda has Earth Woman as a subservient and Aldrya as an associate, both Yinkin and Odayla have Daka Fal as an associate.

I always assume that the Rune levels of a cult know their cult spirit magics as it says in RQG: Spell teaching is an important source of income for the cult, so assuming God Talkers, Rune priests and Rune Lords know the prerequisite spirit magic is a no brainer. Likewise in roleplaying the examiner test, saying you can teach the cult magic goes along way to help pass the test. In my eyes this means that the cult magics will perpetuate easily. If you want to make things difficult for the players, then have Rune levels not know some or all cult spirit magic.

In my game the Storm Bull initiate needs to know the cult spirit magic: Demoralize, Detect Enemies, Dispel Magic, Fanaticism, Heal, Protection. His options are: go to he local Storm Bull temple, to learn them all from his Bull Priest (in the nearby village). Or he can learn Demoralize, Detect Enemies, Heal, Fanaticism and Protection from the local Orlanth priest. He can learn Dispel Magic from the local Earth Witch shaman, and Demoralize, and Heal from the local Ernalda priestess.

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9 hours ago, David Scott said:

I always assume that the Rune levels of a cult know their cult spirit magics as it says in RQG: Spell teaching is an important source of income for the cult, so assuming God Talkers, Rune priests and Rune Lords know the prerequisite spirit magic is a no brainer. Likewise in roleplaying the examiner test, saying you can teach the cult magic goes along way to help pass the test. In my eyes this means that the cult magics will perpetuate easily. If you want to make things difficult for the players, then have Rune levels not know some or all cult spirit magic.

Being limited to 21 CHA, they can not possibly know all their cult spirit magic.

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9 hours ago, David Scott said:

I always assume that the Rune levels of a cult know their cult spirit magics as it says in RQG: Spell teaching is an important source of income for the cult, so assuming God Talkers, Rune priests and Rune Lords know the prerequisite spirit magic is a no brainer.

Not all rune-levels will know all the spells. Maybe if they have an allied spirit then they might be able to, but there's just too much for one individual with most cults.

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Every temple has its secrets. Some may know a spirit spell when another one doesn't

Some may know a spirit spell until a limit, when another may know the same spell until another limit.

I see here opportunities for the table to generate adventure, of for the GM to create a hook to send the pc somewhere.

the gm could allow the pc to learn the spell (aka spell + level) into the regular temple if that is not important (for the story, or for the balance between players, or for any reason) or explain that the pc has to go elsewhere (or maybe no priest in the regular temple knows where the pc can find a good place to learn it and the pc has to investigate).

Of course shaman, like violence, is always an option.

 

 

Edited by French Desperate WindChild
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12 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Not all rune-levels will know all the spells. Maybe if they have an allied spirit then they might be able to, but there's just too much for one individual with most cults.

12 hours ago, Kloster said:

Being limited to 21 CHA, they can not possibly know all their cult spirit magic.

Most cults have 4 (Eiritha) to 9 (Orlanth) cult spirit magics. An Orlanth rune lord with a CHA of 18 should have no problem knowing all of them. As you said, an allied spirit would certainly help.

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24 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Most cults have 4 (Eiritha) to 9 (Orlanth) cult spirit magics. An Orlanth rune lord with a CHA of 18 should have no problem knowing all of them. As you said, an allied spirit would certainly help.

As the owner of the RQ2 Rune Masters supplement, I may perhaps shed some light on the matter. The supplement lists stats for 45 Rune lords/priests belonging to 15 cults from Prax. It is true that together with their allied and bound spirits, these Rune lords average around 100 POW/INT points. I think that in previous editions, either POW or INT was used to cap the number of spell points known to a given spirit/character.

This does not mean that these Rune lords know all the spells. Instead they have quite a few points in some variable spells.  Healing 6, Countermagic 6 are widespread for example. There must have been a 6 points cap for variable spells in RQ2 since I don't see any stronger spells. Such a limit is not present in RQ3 and RQG.

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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Most cults have 4 (Eiritha) to 9 (Orlanth) cult spirit magics. An Orlanth rune lord with a CHA of 18 should have no problem knowing all of them. As you said, an allied spirit would certainly help.

Do you mean a Rune priest that knows Bladesharp 1 can teach all Bladesharp? If yes, you are right, any Rune Lord or Priest can (and should) know ALL his cult spells. If not, with 21 CHA, he can know all spells, but almost none above level 3. For Orlanth: Bladesharp 5, Demoralize (2), Detect Enemies (1), Disruption (1), Fanaticism (1), Heal (4), Mobility (1), Protection 4, Strength (2) fills the 21 CHA. Of course, if he can teach the spells known by his bound or allied spirits (as he can cast them), the point is moot.

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4 hours ago, Kloster said:

Do you mean a Rune priest that knows Bladesharp 1 can teach all Bladesharp?

The wording is, as usual ambiguous and does not include any "level" text. As I choose to have rune levels know all their cult spells, this is how I interpret it for my games.

Quote

Of course, if he can teach the spells known by his bound or allied spirits (as he can cast them), the point is moot.

I only include allied spirits as they are sent specifically by the deity. I allow a rune level to forget a few spells their allied spirit knows.

Bladesharp 1, Demoralize (2), Detect Enemies (1), Disruption (1), Fanaticism (1), Heal 1, Mobility (1), Protection 1, Strength (2) Comes to 11 CHA. I'd give them Heal 2 at a minimum as it stops bleeding, so 12 CHA. They could learn Bladesharp / Heal up to their CHA if needed or other magics from associated cults. 

 

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47 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The wording is, as usual ambiguous and does not include any "level" text.

Agreed, and even if I hadn't the same reading as you, I like your way. I take.

48 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I only include allied spirits as they are sent specifically by the deity.

This I like.

48 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I allow a rune level to forget a few spells their allied spirit knows.

I always played you can forget spells to be able to learn others.

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On 2/23/2021 at 12:00 AM, jajagappa said:

You've already paid out the 200L for Bladesharp 4.  Now you must shell out 250L for Bladesharp 5.  That is cumulative - altogether you've spent 450L.

If you can only afford small increments, it gets very expensive.  Buy Bladesharp 1 here, Bladesharp 2 there, etc. you're paying 50L + 100L +150L ...

If you can afford to pay the temple/shaman for a larger spell sooner, then you have less incremental, cumulative costs.

But do you let players that only bought Bladesharp 6 to cast it with 1 to 5 MP, or is he restricted to cast it with 6 points only ? 

Even if that's the case, I can understand why a beginner might want to pay 100 to 150 L for a cheap version of a spell, but I don't understand why someone would pay such a hefty price just for the benefit of being able to cast all versions of bladesharp. Even less so if he gets no benefit from it.

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36 minutes ago, Mugen said:

But do you let players that only bought Bladesharp 6 to cast it with 1 to 5 MP, or is he restricted to cast it with 6 points only ?

If you know Bladesharp 6, you can cast Bladesharp 1 to 6 at will, provided you have the MP.

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35 minutes ago, Mugen said:

But do you let players that only bought Bladesharp 6 to cast it with 1 to 5 MP, or is he restricted to cast it with 6 points only ? 

I would imagine that all strengths of Bladesharp below your current one are available. If your MP are getting tight in a battle, you should be capable of casting a weaker Bladesharp. To represent your weakening ability to draw on spirit magic. Imagine the mundane applications. You know a powerful manifestation of Bladesharp. All you want to do is enhance your ability to slice through a leather hide on a work surface. If you cast Bladesharp 6, you'll probably slice through the table as well!

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All this talk of the mini-max economics of the purchase of Bladesharp irritates me slightly. You learn the spell by convincing your priest that you are worthy of the power. The temple is not a convenience store. That worthiness is dependent on many factors. You social standing, honour, exploits, the reason you want the magic for etc. Only a greedy or heedless priest would just hand the magic out for cows and land. Its all a chance for role-playing.

The learning of variable spells should always be incremental unless you have a very good role play reason for the leap, such as joining a heroquest, raiding Snakepipe Hollow or fighting Lunars.

Edited by kr0p0s
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What is the rule for Lhankor Mhy cult spells? "All Detection spells" is a pretty big bid to start with. How many are there?
And then there are those Sages who use sorcery. Are they exempt from teaching spirit magic?

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5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What is the rule for Lhankor Mhy cult spells? "All Detection spells" is a pretty big bid to start with. How many are there?
And then there are those Sages who use sorcery. Are they exempt from teaching spirit magic?

RQ:G p253 "Rune cults can teach any spirit magic spell known to their Rune Masters."

At each temple there will be a good variety of Detect spells available. With, say Sartar this may be quite extensive. You want some obscure Detect spell? There's a little temple in the wilds out past Alone. There's a note in the library describing his use of that magic. Head out there and have a look.

If the sorcery using Sage still has that spirit magic memorised, he can still teach it. 

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1 hour ago, Kloster said:

If you know Bladesharp 6, you can cast Bladesharp 1 to 6 at will, provided you have the MP.

That was not an official rules question, but rather a question to @jajagappaconcerning possible houserules.

As a player, I would not be happy to pay so many Lunars for no benefit.

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17 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

 

I play with "if you are sorcerer you don't get the 3 spirit spell from previous experience, but you can learn as anyone spirit magic if you want during the campaign, just manage your free int"

Yes, that's the spirit of the rules. Aeolians have the same position, as Lunars.

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3 hours ago, Mugen said:

That was not an official rules question, but rather a question to @jajagappaconcerning possible houserules.

As a player, I would not be happy to pay so many Lunars for no benefit.

You can always cast spirit magic at a lower level than you know.  If you know Heal 6, but only need Heal 2, you cast Heal 2. 

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5 hours ago, Mugen said:

But do you let players that only bought Bladesharp 6 to cast it with 1 to 5 MP, or is he restricted to cast it with 6 points only ? 

Of course, it's in the rules, Variable/Nonvariable Spell, page 248.

Quote

An adventurer can know a powerful variable spell and cast a weaker version of that spell.

 

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

What is the rule for Lhankor Mhy cult spells? "All Detection spells" is a pretty big bid to start with. How many are there?

There are seven. I'd treat Detect (substance) as generic, so if you know one substance, it's straight forward to teach another, otherwise finding teachers for some substances will become onerous.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

And then there are those Sages who use sorcery. Are they exempt from teaching spirit magic?

This likely to be one of those things where you either know spirit magic or sorcery. The sorcerers in my game don't memorise spirit magic at all, they do use matrixes though. The non-sorcerers know all the cult sprit magic and the sorcerers teach sorcery. There's likely a few exceptions like this.

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5 hours ago, kr0p0s said:

All this talk of the mini-max economics of the purchase of Bladesharp irritates me slightly. You learn the spell by convincing your priest that you are worthy of the power. The temple is not a convenience store. That worthiness is dependent on many factors. You social standing, honour, exploits, the reason you want the magic for etc. 

You learn cult spirit magic spells by either going to a shaman, godtalker, rune priest or rune lord (or associate cult's equivalent). Learning Spirit Magic on page does not mention any other prerequisites.

5 hours ago, kr0p0s said:

Only a greedy or heedless priest would just hand the magic out for cows and land.

What is clear is that you pay what is asked, as states clearly that "Spell teaching is an important source of income for the cult" (page 277). They aren't greedy or heedless, they just doing their job.

5 hours ago, kr0p0s said:

Its all a chance for role-playing.

That isn't disputed. Page 417 states:

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Training is not transactional in Glorantha; instead, the teacher-student relationship is a formal one, fraught with obligations. A student is expected to show respect, devotion, commitment, and obedience to the teacher.

Learning Rune magic, is a very different requirement (page 275):

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At the gamemaster’s discretion, an initiate can gain access to the cult’s special Rune spells in return for exceptional service to the cult, by donating the equivalent of 100 L per point of the spell, or for other reasons that further the cult’s goals and standing.

 

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