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Is there a top limit for spirit magic spells?


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44 minutes ago, David Scott said:

There are seven. I'd treat Detect (substance) as generic, so if you know one substance, it's straight forward to teach another, otherwise finding teachers for some substances will become onerous.

not me

I consider detect gold, detect iron, etc... as different spells

but that is a good question, I consider "detect tree" for one, no matter the species

just because there are difference between gold and iron and other metal inthe rules (magic capabilities for example) when there is nothing for tree

that is just a point,could be great to define officialy what is (substance)

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We do know the base price per point for the variable spells.  The main question is whether the pricing is multiplicative or cumulative.  RBoM adds two points beyond what is noted in RQG.  From p.

I generally build my spirits as having at least about 3 points of POW per point of their highest-costing spirit magic spell. (Or, in other words, I don't usually give them higher point spells than the

The tooth of a giant, a silken thread from Cragspider, a flower from the Earth Mother picked from her Garden, and the tears of the Sun.  Piece of cake! 🙂

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

not me

I consider detect gold, detect iron, etc... as different spells

That's entirely up to you.

Remember we now have a further clarification in RBM, that "the subject of that spell is inevitably based on the cult it is provided by and should be defined when listed" so elemental cults will likely teach Detect (fire, water, etc) and related substances defined under their runes. So Earth would have the widest range of substance, where water cults might give you Detect Blood, or Darkness cults, Detect Chitin. Storm Bull might

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that is just a point,could be great to define officialy what is (substance)

The dictionary provides a very straight forward description IMO. 

 

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2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The dictionary provides a very straight forward description IMO.

the ( ) in (substance) are important , I was not talking about the word, but about the rules. detect (metal) and detect (iron) for example.

I have not (yet) RBM (so a good point there is a definition) but not sure about the intent:

does that mean

- there is one detect Earth spell and everything about Earth is detected  (earth metal, tree, everything based on Earth rune is highlighted) ?

- there is one detect Earth spell and the caster can choose what the spell detects (I m looking for tree, so I use detect Earth and it highlights trees only)  ?

- the Earth cults can teach you a lot of detect (substance) spells , each is dedicated to one specific ... substance base on Earth rune

 

 

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2 hours ago, David Scott said:

You learn cult spirit magic spells by either going to a shaman, godtalker, rune priest or rune lord (or associate cult's equivalent). Learning Spirit Magic on page does not mention any other prerequisites.

So it is a straightforward economic transaction, no questions asked. A Bladesharp 6 will just be handed out, no questions asked, as long as you have the loot? Temples and shaman are just merchants in this respect? 

Edited by kr0p0s
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4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

does that mean

- there is one detect Earth spell and everything about Earth is detected  (earth metal, tree, everything based on Earth rune is highlighted) ?

I doubt there is just one, I would have detect stone, clay, copper, gems, etc. Trees aren't a substance, wood is. Plant rune cults can likely teach detect wood. But realistically most of these are useless.

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the Earth cults can teach you a lot of detect (substance) spells , each is dedicated to one specific ... substance base on Earth rune 

That's how I see it. The only cults that teach Detect (substance) though are Lhankor Mhy, & Yelmalio.

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1 minute ago, kr0p0s said:

So it is a straightforward economic transaction, no questions asked.

As I said, the rules do not specify any particular requirements other than you pay. If you have the rules, I suggest reading the learning spirit magic section on page 253 (repeated and expanded in RBM page 106).

1 minute ago, kr0p0s said:

A Bladesharp 6 will just be handed out, no questions asked, as long as you have the loot?

It takes a week of teaching as usual. My players usually pay in goods such as cattle, sheep or apples. "Loot" isn't that useful in most cases. As spell teaching is an out of game activity (because of the week involved), I usually skip over it. If a player misses a season they get to use their three adventuring weeks for training if they want and have the resources.

If you disagree with the rules, just do what you want in your game, it's encouraged. 

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8 minutes ago, David Scott said:

As I said, the rules do not specify any particular requirements other than you pay. If you have the rules, I suggest reading the learning spirit magic section on page 253 (repeated and expanded in RBM page 106).

RBM says "Rune cults often teach spirit magic in return for service to a specific temple." 

My thinking was the more common spells and lower strength variable spells would be taught without too much quibbling. Cults special spells or your Bladesharp 6s would come with more questions and maybe a requirement for some service to the temple, depending on the temples specific circumstances. Apologies if I came over as a bit pedantic.

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3 minutes ago, kr0p0s said:

RBM says "Rune cults often teach spirit magic in return for service to a specific temple." 

My thinking was the more common spells and lower strength variable spells would be taught without too much quibbling. Cults special spells or your Bladesharp 6s would come with more questions and maybe a requirement for some service to the temple, depending on the temples specific circumstances.

Without descending in to maths (my group likes it simple). Given that a normal warrior earn 60L / year, it would need to be very "special" service. Don't forget that some cults offer reduced cost or free training, and you get 1 pt free per 5 years too.

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On 3/3/2021 at 12:10 AM, David Scott said:

As I choose to have rune levels know all their cult spells, this is how I interpret it for my games.

That makes no sense!

It would mean that any stick picker could learn a single point of a variable spell, and then just upgrade themselves to whatever they want. Or sell that knowledge and not be a stick picker... 

Being limited to the point value you have learned makes sense.

 

But, I'm still at a loss as to how a Humakti Sword could turn her Bladesharp up to 11... Surely Humakt would have the spirits (or personal intervention - DI comes to mind) to do that (and thus solving this issue, and bypassing the above rulings).

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On 3/3/2021 at 9:59 PM, David Scott said:

This likely to be one of those things where you either know spirit magic or sorcery. The sorcerers in my game don't memorise spirit magic at all, they do use matrixes though. The non-sorcerers know all the cult sprit magic and the sorcerers teach sorcery.

In my game, a sorcerer Sage will typically know no, or very little, spirit magic - and when they get an allied spirit, they typically teach it as much as possible. 

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4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

It would mean that any stick picker could learn a single point of a variable spell, and then just upgrade themselves to whatever they want. Or sell that knowledge and not be a stick picker... 

He mentioned Rune Levels though, so only Rune Priests or Rune Lords would do that -- at least that's what I understand.

It makes some sense to me. For instance, a Sword of Humakt at the minor temple a couple clans away may or may not have Bladesharp 6... maybe she only has Bladesharp 4 because she has a different setup of spirit spells within her CHA limitation... but she knows how to get Bladesharp 6, and she can help you get it. Maybe she had it in the past. Or maybe it's one of those "I don't know, but I know how to find out" that experienced people often say.

Edited by lordabdul
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2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

He mentioned Rune Levels though, so only Rune Priests or Rune Lords would do that -- at least that's what I understand.

Without some specific guidelines on that unnecessary, uninteresting and irrelevant point about how spells are learned, there's nothing to suggest that you need to be a Rune Master to be able to teach someone a spell...

 

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

It makes some sense to me. For instance, a Sword of Humakt at the minor temple a couple clans away may or may not have Bladesharp 6... maybe she only has Bladesharp 4 because she has a different setup of spirit spells within her CHA limitation... but she knows how to get Bladesharp 6, and she can help you get it. Maybe she had it in the past. Or maybe it's one of those "I don't know, but I know how to find out" that experienced people often say

Unless you want to turn it up to 11... and you've never heard of anyone getting it that high... let alone getting it to 21!

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I consider rune levels don't have to know all spirits spells. They can but there is no reason they have to.

It is "easy" for rune level to obtain the spirit spell they want (from the cult):

they are rune level, they are dedicated to the cult, they are in position in the temple to request anything. And what can you find in a temple, spirits of the divinity, you can request them things, because they know who you are, they know you are the local leader of the cult.

So in my opinion, their is no need to define how a rune level manage spirit spells to be aligned with rules. They can have what they want because the rune level people decide who can access or not to something from the cult.

In a deeper perspective, we can also imagine in great temples that the highest priest can forbid someone to learn something too. Or maybe this temple doesn't have access to this spell because in the past someone from the temple did something wrong and this cult spirit ( ? 'family ?') refuse now to "serve" the temple. Less rules (or no more rules), but more colors 🙂

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Unless you want to turn it up to 11... and you've never heard of anyone getting it that high... let alone getting it to 21!

Sure, I've suggested it before, getting a really high level spell could be a whole scenario. Or it could be trivial. YGWV.

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8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Without some specific guidelines on that unnecessary, uninteresting and irrelevant point about how spells are learned, there's nothing to suggest that you need to be a Rune Master to be able to teach someone a spell...

I'm not sure why knowing how spells are taught is "unnecessary, uninteresting, and irrelevant", especially coming from someone raising issues about it, but as for the last part, IIRC, only shamans and Rune Masters are able to teach spirit magic per RAW.

 

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sure, I've suggested it before, getting a really high level spell could be a whole scenario. Or it could be trivial. YGWV.

Yep I agree. It's like going to a weapon smith asking for the Glorious Axe of Billy Bob Trollkiller. You don't roll under 2% to see if that item is in the shop -- you make a whole adventure about it. It seems appropriate to me that anything above level 5 or 6 spirit magic would be about finding a very specific spirit that knows it.

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8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I'm not sure why knowing how spells are taught is "unnecessary, uninteresting, and irrelevant", especially coming from someone raising issues about it,

Sarcasm. Because @David Scottwas saying that because it's done out of adventure time, we don't need those rules.

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14 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Yep I agree. It's like going to a weapon smith asking for the Glorious Axe of Billy Bob Trollkiller. You don't roll under 2% to see if that item is in the shop -- you make a whole adventure about it. It seems appropriate to me that anything above level 5 or 6 spirit magic would be about finding a very specific spirit that knows it.

dans mes bras!

good example, and probably good limit (6) too

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