Casting a Sorcery spell

[Godlearner]

This should be straight forward but I can't seem to wrap my mind around it.

I have a sorcerer who has mastered the following: Harmony, Water and Magic Runes as well as Command, Combine techniques.

Case 1. Casting a spell which uses Harmony and Command. The cost is 2 mp plus 1 mp for each additional level of intensity (This is pretty much the example in the book p386)

Case 2. Casting a spell which uses Harmony and Combine. The cost is 3mp plus 1 mp(or is this now 2mp) for each additional level of intensity

Case 3. Casting a spell which uses Death and Dispel.  The cost is 4mps plus (?) mps for each additional level of intensity

Case 4 Casting a spell which uses Magic, Air, Combine and Separate. The cost is 7mps(?) and the cost for each additional level of intensity is (?)

[Richard S.]

18 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Case 2. Casting a spell which uses Harmony and Combine. The cost is 3mp plus 1 mp(or is this now 2mp) for each additional level of intensity

The cost should just be 2mp+1/level. You said you know both Harmony and Combine, so it's just 1mp for each.

18 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Case 3. Casting a spell which uses Death and Dispel.  The cost is 4mps plus (?) mps for each additional level of intensity

You can't cast that, since you don't have any runes mastered that imply death. If you knew life, you could cast it for 4mp+2/level. If you knew death, you could cast it for 3mp+2/level.

18 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Case 4 Casting a spell which uses Magic, Air, Combine and Separate. The cost is 7mps(?) and the cost for each additional level of intensity is (?)

6mp (magic=1, air=2, combine=1, separate=2)+2/level.

The base cost of a spell is 1 for each rune that you have mastered, and 2 for each rune you have implied. A spell which you have mastered 1 rune of and can imply 2 costs 1+2+2=5.

The cost for adding levels is only doubled once, if any runes in the spell are implied. If two, or three, or all runes are only known through implication, the price per level is still only +2.

This is all based on the core book. There may be some change in the Q&A which throws this all out the window.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Richard S.

[Godlearner]

Quote

The cost for adding levels is only doubled once, if any runes in the spell are implied. If two, or three, or all runes are only known through implication, the price per level is still only +2.

So the cost for additional Intensity is always either 1 or 2. The base spell cost is minimum equal to the number of runes/technique if all mastered or number of runes/technique x2 if all implied/opposite?

[Richard S.]

20 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

So the cost for additional Intensity is always either 1 or 2.

Yes. 1 if all r/t are mastered, 2 if even one of them is implied.

21 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The base spell cost is minimum equal to the number of runes/technique if all mastered or number of runes/technique x2 if all implied/opposite?

Basically. Essentially, for each r/t you don't have mastered it costs 1 extra on top of the base 1 per each r/t.

[Godlearner]

Ok does this mean that to learn the spell of Neutralize Chaos one must master the Chaos rune and get a Chaotic taint?

[Richard S.]

20 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Ok does this mean that to learn the spell of Neutralize Chaos one must master the Chaos rune and get a Chaotic taint?

Yes, which is why people are rightfully suspicious of schools like the Borists who tap chaos

Edited February 25, 2021 by Richard S.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Ok does this mean that to learn the spell of Neutralize Chaos one must master the Chaos rune and get a Chaotic taint?

not sure: you can masterize air rune, without any level in air rune (your personal rune)

it should be the same to masterize chaotic rune with enough discipline. You are not chaotic if you have 0 in chaotic rune.

 

But the question is how can you understand (then masterize) chaotic rune, without studying chaos. And how do you protect yourself from chaotic taint, when you study chaos. then probably the conclusion is @Richard S. answer. 

[Kloster]

43 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

not sure: you can masterize air rune, without any level in air rune (your personal rune)

it should be the same to masterize chaotic rune with enough discipline. You are not chaotic if you have 0 in chaotic rune.

 

But the question is how can you understand (then masterize) chaotic rune, without studying chaos. And how do you protect yourself from chaotic taint, when you study chaos. then probably the conclusion is @Richard S. answer. 

RQG p383: Chaos: This Rune governs evil, corruption, annihilation, and perversion of other Runes. Mastery of this Rune results in a Chaotic taint to the sorcerer.

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

not sure: you can masterize air rune, without any level in air rune (your personal rune)

it should be the same to masterize chaotic rune with enough discipline. You are not chaotic if you have 0 in chaotic rune.

 

But the question is how can you understand (then masterize) chaotic rune, without studying chaos. And how do you protect yourself from chaotic taint, when you study chaos. then probably the conclusion is @Richard S. answer. 

Mastering the chaos rune gives a chaotic taint, even if you have no affinity with the rune. We don't know exactly what that taint means though. It could mean a minor chaotic feature, it could be like 1% in the chaos rune, or it could be something entirely different.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

RQG p383: Chaos: This Rune governs evil, corruption, annihilation, and perversion of other Runes. Mastery of this Rune results in a Chaotic taint to the sorcerer.

Oh you teach me somenthing I missed, thanks!

[tnli]

I believe that the cost of extra intensity is doubled if you have at least one rune or technique implied, and quadrupled if both implied technique and rune.

So, base cost 1 per mastered rune or technique, 2 per implied rune or technique.

And added intensity is 1/2/4 per level depending if it uses all mastered runes and techniques / all mastered runes but at least one implied technique or vice versa / at least one implied technique and rune used.

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, tnli said:

I believe that the cost of extra intensity is doubled if you have at least one rune or technique implied, and quadrupled if both implied technique and rune.

And added intensity is 1/2/4 per level depending if it uses all mastered runes and techniques / all mastered runes but at least one implied technique or vice versa / at least one implied technique and rune used.

Okay, it looks like the rules say two different things. Under "Manipulating Spells" it says "Unless otherwise specified in the spell description, it costs 1 additional magic point to increase the intensity of a spell by one level; or double the amount of magic points if it uses a Rune or technique that the sorcerer has not mastered." which implies that the cost per intensity is only doubled once. Under "Spell Cost", however, it says "Using an unmastered technique or Rune costs double the magic points, and if a sorcerer tries to cast a spell with a Rune and a technique they have not mastered, the magic point cost is multiplied by 4 (essentially, doubled twice)."

The Q&A doesn't help either. It first seems to say that the cost per intensity is doubled for each implied r/t (which would make casting a spell with 3 implied r/t cost +8 per level), but then immediately afterwards it cites the "Manipulating Spells" quote I posted above and states that it's only doubled once, not per r/t.

Both the rules and the Q&A contradict themselves oh dear...

Edited February 25, 2021 by Richard S.

[Godlearner]

Is there a special place to discuss Sorcery rules and spells? I got a LOT of things and ideas.

[Kloster]

31 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Is there a special place to discuss Sorcery rules and spells? I got a LOT of things and ideas.

Just create a thread about it.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Richard S. said:

double the amount of magic points if it uses a Rune or technique that the sorcerer has not mastered.

you can understand it in both way  :

- double the amount of MP if it uses at least one Rune or technique that the sorcerer has not mastered

- double the amount of MP for every use of Rune or technique that the sorcerer has not mastered

as there is no "at least" in the rules, the second option could be consistent with the other §

and if you have to cast a spell with 2 runes and one technique , that means x6, etc..

[tnli]

On 2/25/2021 at 2:18 PM, Richard S. said:

Okay, it looks like the rules say two different things. Under "Manipulating Spells" it says "Unless otherwise specified in the spell description, it costs 1 additional magic point to increase the intensity of a spell by one level; or double the amount of magic points if it uses a Rune or technique that the sorcerer has not mastered." which implies that the cost per intensity is only doubled once. Under "Spell Cost", however, it says "Using an unmastered technique or Rune costs double the magic points, and if a sorcerer tries to cast a spell with a Rune and a technique they have not mastered, the magic point cost is multiplied by 4 (essentially, doubled twice)."

The Q&A doesn't help either. It first seems to say that the cost per intensity is doubled for each implied r/t (which would make casting a spell with 3 implied r/t cost +8 per level), but then immediately afterwards it cites the "Manipulating Spells" quote I posted above and states that it's only doubled once, not per r/t.

Both the rules and the Q&A contradict themselves oh dear...

I asked this specificly and got this:

 

If you cast a spell that has more than two runes and techniques, is the cost of each added level of intensity doubled for each rune or technique that the caster has merely “a certain amount of knowledge” for (via minor runes, opposite runes, or opposite techniques)?

Yes, if you don’t have the complete knowledge, sorcery is costly. 

So, casting a spell with a total of three runes and techniques, with no mastered runes or techniques, but insight to all of them, what is the base cost of this spell (my guess is six),

Three runes and techniques would normally cost 3 points, (1 per runes/technique). 2 for the first unmastered, 2 for the second unmastered, 2 for the third unmastered for a total of 6.

See the second example in Spell Cost on page 386. 

how much does it cost to add three levels of added intensity into it (my guess is 8 per level, doubled thrice for three nonmastered runes and techniques, for a total of 24),

Intensity 1 is free, plus three levels =  intensity 4, unmastered = +6. , says Quote

double the amount of magic points if it uses a Rune or technique that the sorcerer has not mastered.

Manipulating Spells, page 384

not per rune/technique. So the total is 6+6=12mps. 

On 10/26/2020 at 12:48 PM, tnli said:

and how long does it take to cast this spell (my guess is either Full Round + DEX SR + (2 * 3) or Full Round + DEX SR + (2 * 24) SR)? 

So it was a 3 point spell, using 12 mps total – 3 = 9 extra mps x 2 = 18 SRs

Full Round + DEX SR + 18 SR

[Richard S.]

2 minutes ago, tnli said:

I asked this specificly and got this:

 

If you cast a spell that has more than two runes and techniques, is the cost of each added level of intensity doubled for each rune or technique that the caster has merely “a certain amount of knowledge” for (via minor runes, opposite runes, or opposite techniques)?

Yes, if you don’t have the complete knowledge, sorcery is costly. 

Yeah, that's the part of the Q&A I was referencing. While for the most part it seems to agree with the "only doubled once" ruling, this first line that I quoted contradicts that, which confuses me. It's possible that they though you were talking about base spell cost and not cost per intensity level, though, which would agree with what's said later.

So, it's probably safest to rule that the base cost of a spell is 1mp for each mastered rune or technique plus 2mp for each unmastered, while the cost per level of intensity is 1 if all the runes and techniques in the spell are mastered and 2 if any of the runes and techniques in the spell are unmastered.

[Godlearner]

Quote

Unless otherwise specified in the spell description, it costs 1 additional magic point to increase the intensity of a spell by one level; or double the amount of magic points if it uses a Rune or technique that the sorcerer has not mastered. 

This is how I am reading it:

If the sorcerer has mastered all of them, then the cost appears to be 1+1+1 MPs and +1 MP per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered two of them, then the cost is 1+1+2 MPs and +4 MPs per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered only one, then the cost is 1+2+2 MPs and +5 MPs per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered none, then the cost is 2+2+2 MPs and +6 MPs per intensity

Quote

1 if all the runes and techniques in the spell are mastered and 2 if any of the runes and techniques in the spell are unmastered

I would love this interpretation because the cost would then be:

If the sorcerer has mastered all of them, then the cost appears to be 1+1+1 MPs and +1 MP per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered two of them, then the cost is 1+1+2 MPs and +2 MPs per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered only one, then the cost is 1+2+2 MPs and +2 MPs per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered none, then the cost is 2+2+2 MPs and +2 MPs per intensity

[ChrisJ]

The example on page 386 although only a 1 Rune/1Tech example aligns with the your second block of text Godlearner, and does not align with your first.

 

The text that confuses the matter is just above this example

"Using an unmastered technique or Rune costs double the magic points, and if a sorcerer tries to cast a spell with a Rune and a technique they have not mastered, the magic point cost is multiplied by 4 (essentially, doubled twice)."

 

But there is no example in the book covering the use of both missing runes and techniques.  Nor is there an example with the sorcerer casting a spell with 2 runes not mastered but all techniques mastered.  After discussion with my players our interpretation was:

 

MP Cost of casting a Mastered sorc spell spell = Base + Additional Intensity

MP Cost of Casting an Un-Mastered Sorc Spell = Base + 1MP per Rune Implied +1 MP per Technique Implied + Additional Intensity*2

 

Where Base is the number of Runes and Techniques the spell uses.

[Godlearner]

ChrisJ, I agree with you that it is very confusing and need some clear examples using three runes/techniques spell.

[David Scott]

On 2/25/2021 at 2:25 PM, Godlearner said:

Is there a special place to discuss Sorcery rules and spells? I got a LOT of things and ideas.

If you've a lot of info, I suggest creating a blog (top of this page) and updating with your new stuff, then a start discussion thread linking to it. It will keep all your info in one place where a post will just get bigger and bigger and harder to find the original info.