Sorcery spells and items.

[Godlearner]

The rule book specifies that sorcery spells can be inscribed into an item, but these are only usable by the sorcerer who created them. Are there any other way to store a sorcery spell? Are there sorcery matrixes? Can a spirit have a knowledge of a spell for  a sorcerer to cast? Are there such things as precast one-use sorcery spells, like scroll or a potion? Are there actual Grimoires, or spell books? 

[Richard S.]

Grimoires, the cornerstone of sorcery, are going to be covered when proper Malkioni sorcery does, though that book is unfortunately pretty far down the road. It seems like they'll probably just be books that give knowledge of spells, possibly even a straight +% bonus if they're anything like the skill books Jeff posted about a while back. Another option is that they're books of inscriptions. As for sorcery "matrices", that's basically what inscriptions are, an external place to hold spells so they don't take up space in your noggin. And yes, like with other enchantments you can spend extra POW to mess with who can use them (though in this case the default is "caster", not "everyone", so each extra point would expand the pool rather than shrinking it, though even at "everyone" level only a sorcerer could actually use it). Spirits probably can't hold spells, since the sorcerer either needs to have it in their mind or be able to read it (it is a literacy-based discipline). Scrolls would probably be forms of inscriptions, though they wouldn't be one-use unless the inscribing sorcerer somehow worked that into the enchantment. You can't put sorcery spells into potions, though doubtless there's several spells out there that deal with alchemy and making potions.

[Psullie]

I would allow Spirits to know sorcery, dead wizards? But they would need to pop out of their containment to cast their spells rather than accessible like spirit magic. Sorcery spells would not be transferrable like spirit magic but may be trained as per the Training rules if you can offer the Spirit something it wants.

[Godlearner]

12 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Grimoires, the cornerstone of sorcery, are going to be covered when proper Malkioni sorcery does, though that book is unfortunately pretty far down the road. It seems like they'll probably just be books that give knowledge of spells, possibly even a straight +% bonus if they're anything like the skill books Jeff posted about a while back. Another option is that they're books of inscriptions. As for sorcery "matrices", that's basically what inscriptions are, an external place to hold spells so they don't take up space in your noggin. And yes, like with other enchantments you can spend extra POW to mess with who can use them (though in this case the default is "caster", not "everyone", so each extra point would expand the pool rather than shrinking it, though even at "everyone" level only a sorcerer could actually use it). Spirits probably can't hold spells, since the sorcerer either needs to have it in their mind or be able to read it (it is a literacy-based discipline). Scrolls would probably be forms of inscriptions, though they wouldn't be one-use unless the inscribing sorcerer somehow worked that into the enchantment. You can't put sorcery spells into potions, though doubtless there's several spells out there that deal with alchemy and making potions.

The Inscriptions currently can be made into anything and are usable only by the sorcerer who made them. Having them be expanded into matrixes for additional POW is a bit lame. Sorcery is already very POW intensive.

If the grimoires give knowledge of spells and possibly even a straight +% bonus that would be what is really needed (IMO).

Spirits not holding spells is something I always felt was correct; at best it is incomplete knowledge. Perhaps one can learn a spell from a spirit, but that you would still rely on ones abilities to cast it.

In regard to scroll, I would really like to see them and have sorcerers the ability to make them without use of POW. Perhaps have them count against the casters CHA until used?

If one can put a Spirit spell or a Rune spell into a potion, one should be able to put a Sorcery spell into one. (IMO)

[Richard S.]

4 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The Inscriptions currently can be made into anything and are usable only by the sorcerer who made them. Having them be expanded into matrixes for additional POW is a bit lame. Sorcery is already very POW intensive.

Inscriptions are just like any other enchantment in that regard. They give a lot of long-term benefits, but they're expensive as all hell.

6 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

If one can put a Spirit spell or a Rune spell into a potion, one should be able to put a Sorcery spell into one.

You could maybe put the effect of a sorcery spell into a potion with another spell, like using a sorcery spell to brew a potion that taps the SIZ of whoever drinks it, but because of how intellectual sorcery is I don't believe that you can condense and bottle up the knowledge of a spell for anyone to use.

[Godlearner]

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You could maybe put the effect of a sorcery spell into a potion with another spell, like using a sorcery spell to brew a potion that taps the SIZ of whoever drinks it, but because of how intellectual sorcery is I don't believe that you can condense and bottle up the knowledge of a spell for anyone to use.

Yes, we are talking semantics here, the effect of a sorcery spell can be stored in potion.

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Inscriptions are just like any other enchantment in that regard. They give a lot of long-term benefits, but they're expensive as all hell.

Agreed, but the difference, at least according to the current rules, is that an Inscription is only usable to the sorcerer who made it.

[Kloster]

40 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Agreed, but the difference, at least according to the current rules, is that an Inscription is only usable to the sorcerer who made it.

In fact, an inscription is a Sorcery spell matrix that is usable only by it's maker, but that don't need a spell to be created. If you want, you can (in addition or replacing the inscription) use RQ3's Spell Matrix creation spells.

[Godlearner]

45 minutes ago, Kloster said:

In fact, an inscription is a Sorcery spell matrix that is usable only by it's maker, but that don't need a spell to be created. 

You mean that is does not need a separate spell to be created.

The enchanter, who must know the spell, must sacrifice 1 point of POW to create the inscription.

This is exactly what stops it from being a matrix.

[Richard S.]

35 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

You mean that is does not need a separate spell to be created.

The enchanter, who must know the spell, must sacrifice 1 point of POW to create the inscription.

This is exactly what stops it from being a matrix.

That's pretty much the same procedure for making a matrix though. The creator of a matrix needs to know the spell being enchanted and sacrifice POW equal to its cost. The primary difference between matrices and inscriptions is that the group of people who can use it is "everyone" instead of "caster", and that a separate spell isn't needed to make an inscription.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Richard S.

[Kloster]

37 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

You mean that is does not need a separate spell to be created.

Yes. You don't need a create matrix spell. Sorry for the confusing wording.

[PhilHibbs]

17 hours ago, Richard S. said:

As for sorcery "matrices", that's basically what inscriptions are, an external place to hold spells so they don't take up space in your noggin. And yes, like with other enchantments you can spend extra POW to mess with who can use them (though in this case the default is "caster", not "everyone", so each extra point would expand the pool rather than shrinking it,

Where does that come from? I'm pretty sure that inscriptions are creator-only and that's it.

[Lordabdul]

15 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Where does that come from? I'm pretty sure that inscriptions are creator-only and that's it.

That's what I thought too. I think it comes from a liberal reading of this text (emphasis mine):

Quote

Knowledge of a sorcery spell can be inscribed into an item—
such as a scroll, book, piece of jewelry, weapon, or some other
small token—through ritual enchantment, instead of using
a point of Free INT.

If it says "ritual enchantment", then possibly the "conditions on enchantments" (p250) apply. But my understanding (from the first paragraph of that section p250) is that conditions can only restrict, not expand the requirements. So I'd say inscribed spells are only for the sorcerer and not anybody else. Plus, we already had a thread before about this, and that for instance opens up a can of worms about which spell skill percentage to use when you cast the spell... (I had my own ideas about that). But anyway, people should feel free to deviate from the rules and make up their own.

Edited March 2, 2021 by lordabdul

[Richard S.]

20 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Where does that come from? I'm pretty sure that inscriptions are creator-only and that's it.

Q&A:

Quote

Can sorcerers create shareable spell enchantments, or can they only inscribe spells for their own use?

Jeff Richard may decide that it works differently when playtesting the expanded sorcery rules, so take the following with that in mind:

Yes, spell enchantments are shareable, but only to other sorcerers with knowledge of how sorcery “works”, such as knowing the correct techniques and Runes, or knowing ones that can be substituted . As has been answered upthread, the rules currently do not cover inscribing the techniques and Runes necessary to cast a sorcery spell, so such an enchantment would likely be highly idiosyncratic and not much use to non-sorcerers. 

This may change.

Actually a little different than I remember. The answer implies that instead of it being restricted to only the inscriber it's actually a looser restriction of "anyone who knows the spell and all its runes and techniques", which also means you don't need to sac POW to expand the user pool.

There's also this, which contradicts a little of my interpretation above:

Quote

Sorcery spell inscriptions are described as being done via a ritual enchantment. Does this mean they follow the rules for enchantments, and you can do things like sacrificing POW to let more people than yourself use it?

Currently the rules don’t cover this. Your gamemaster is perfectly within their rights to say yes or no. 

So it looks like I was actually conflating answers in my head and gave some misinformation in this thread, my bad.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Richard S.

[Kloster]

30 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Where does that come from? I'm pretty sure that inscriptions are creator-only and that's it.

Literally, RAW, yes, they are, but, see Richard S's answer (very complete) about what is in the Q&A.

[French Desperate WindChild]

we have no true/full  sorcery rules, only rules to start LM with "weird magic"

I would say there is only one conclusion : there is no good answer about sorcery enchantment.

People can extrapolate (what is the cost, etc...) reading sorcery inscription and spirit/rune enchantment but there is a risk that extrapolation could be refuted by official rules  when they will be published.

 

 

 

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

we have no true/full  sorcery rules, only rules to start LM with "weird magic"

I would say there is only one conclusion : there is no good answer about sorcery enchantment.

People can extrapolate (what is the cost, etc...) reading sorcery inscription and spirit/rune enchantment but there is a risk that extrapolation could be refuted by official rules  when they will be published.

 

 

 

I am hoping to influence the official rules before they are released, by pointing out gaps and flaws in what is available.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

we have no true/full  sorcery rules, only rules to start LM with "weird magic"

I would say there is only one conclusion : there is no good answer about sorcery enchantment.

People can extrapolate (what is the cost, etc...) reading sorcery inscription and spirit/rune enchantment but there is a risk that extrapolation could be refuted by official rules  when they will be published.

There's a perfectly simple way around that - have the character design a Sorcery Spell Matrix Enchantment spell - based off the Magic Point Matrix Enchantment.

A question though - does LM's Matrix Creation Rune spell allow for implanting sorcery? After all, sorcery is his domain...

[Kloster]

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

A question though - does LM's Matrix Creation Rune spell allow for implanting sorcery? After all, sorcery is his domain...

RAW, the Matrix Creation Rune spell allow for creating spirit spell matrix and rune spell matrix only, but not sorcery. MGF wise, I would accept it. The question can also be asked for Aeolians (whose sorcerors worship Orlanthi gods) and Lunars (whose sorcerors worship ... Lunar gods). We still don't have the rules, but Arkati are also concerned by the point.

[Godlearner]

Quote

There's a perfectly simple way around that - have the character design a Sorcery Spell Matrix Enchantment spell - based off the Magic Point Matrix Enchantment.

Sure, then why not keep the entirety of the Sorcery rules from RQ3. Its basically the same at the core, with out the Arts, but including Mastery of Runes and Techniques.

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

I am hoping to influence the official rules before they are released, by pointing out gaps and flaws in what is available.

Sorry to say, but I highly doubt you'll influence much, both because a lot of these flaws and gaps have already been brought up before, and also because I believe Jeff already has a mostly complete manuscript for western sorcery and the invisible god.

[Godlearner]

28 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Sorry to say, but I highly doubt you'll influence much, both because a lot of these flaws and gaps have already been brought up before, and also because I believe Jeff already has a mostly complete manuscript for western sorcery and the invisible god.

I must say, that since its inception it seems that Sorcery was meant to fail as a magic system system for PCs. I hope what Jeff puts out changes my opinion.

[Richard S.]

4 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I must say, that since its inception it seems that Sorcery was meant to fail as a magic system system for PCs.

I mean, it kind of was. Sorcery at its core is a magic system for old men in schools and towers who have other people do all the adventuring while they work up huge spells, research obscure arcane lore, and make magic items. There are plenty of ways you can make it work for active adventurers, but it's always going to feel a little hacky and will occupy a much different space than either spirit or rune magic in the party.

[French Desperate WindChild]

13 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I must say, that since its inception it seems that Sorcery was meant to fail as a magic system system for PCs. I hope what Jeff puts out changes my opinion.

I don't consider it is a fail. Of course  that means the young sorcerer (a pc for example) is not efficient in fight, at least less efficient than any young warrior.

But young sorcerer is more efficient than a warrior to find  something, hidden in a 10km area, for sure.

[Godlearner]

Quote

it's always going to feel a little hacky and will occupy a much different space than either spirit or rune magic in the party.

But it does not have to. You can make it 'playable' and still have it " system for old men in schools and towers". It obviously takes time and a lot magic points, but it should not feel like to use it you need to hack off one of your limbs and spin in a circle for a minute before casting a spell. 

[Godlearner]

Quote

the young sorcerer (a pc for example) is not efficient in fight, at least less efficient than any young warrior.

Young sorcerer? There is no such thing. The requirements are prohibitive. For 3 to 5 POW you could cast somewhat similar spells as spirit magic at x2 times the cost and in at least 2 rounds and your chance to cast is equal to the lesser of the spell % or you Read/Write skill which are both likely to be lower than your POW x5.