Warding question

[SeanF]

Does the disruption from a warding spell hit an interloper when it crosses the warding from either direction? I always assumed the answer is no and that the disruption only hits on the way into the protected space. However, in reading one of the classic RuneQuest scenarios, they specifically say that the warding in the scenario does damage to a PC in both directions of travel. Is this how most people play wardings? The warding in the scenario is also way over the 4 point limit in the RAW so maybe the whole thing is just an anomaly? Any insights are appreciated. 

[soltakss]

I have always played it that it hits you when you cross the boundaries, either way.

So, yes, if you have a long, thin Warding you can be hit twice by crossing it. Even better if you fall over and hit it on the way down again.

[Dissolv]

57 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I have always played it that it hits you when you cross the boundaries, either way.

So, yes, if you have a long, thin Warding you can be hit twice by crossing it. Even better if you fall over and hit it on the way down again.

☝️

 

We have always played the same.  Warding is the ultimate defensive spell, if you have the time to set it up and conceal it.  It is also a primary target for Dismiss and Dispel magics.  If the enemy doesn't have those with sufficient power, they had better have a way around, or they are not going to have a good time.

[Runeblogger]

A further question regarding Warding: would you say that you could circunvent it by teleporting into it?

[Dissolv]

23 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

A further question regarding Warding: would you say that you could circunvent it by teleporting into it?

I would totally allow that.

[davecake]

10 hours ago, Dissolv said:

It is also a primary target for Dismiss and Dispel magics. 

And destroying/removing the wands. Either someone ‘taking one for the team’, or a single person with a strong magical defences (the Rune Lord with Shield etc). 

[Kloster]

13 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

A further question regarding Warding: would you say that you could circunvent it by teleporting into it?

Of course! You don't cross the boundary, so don't suffer the consequences.

[Akhôrahil]

 

14 hours ago, Dissolv said:

It is also a primary target for Dismiss and Dispel magics.

I don’t think Dispels work on enchantments? (Although a GM ruling that you can temporarily suppress it might make sense.)

[Runeblogger]

59 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Of course! You don't cross the boundary, so don't suffer the consequences.

I used to see it that way as well, but when I discussed this in another forum, some people pointed out that Teleport is a spell linked to the Movement rune, and so what it actually would do is to transport you to the other side of the Warding, which would mean you actually do cross the boundary, and therefore must suffer the consequences. From this POV, when using the magic of Mastakos, you are emulating the god, so you are actually moving lightning fast (even if in spirit/air form or whatever), not just disappearing into the ether and then reappearing somewhere else.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Runeblogger

[Kloster]

45 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

 

I don’t think Dispels work on enchantments? (Although a GM ruling that you can temporarily suppress it might make sense.)

You can not dispel the enchants.

[Kloster]

1 minute ago, Runeblogger said:

I used to see it that way as well, but when I discussed this in another forum, some people pointed out that Teleport is a spell linked to the Movement rune, and so what it actually would do is to transport you to the other side of the Warding, which would mean you actually do cross the boundary, and therefore must suffer the consequences. From this POV, when using the magic of Mastakos, you are emulating the god, so you are actually moving lightning fast (even if in spirit/air form or whatever), not just disappearing into the ether and then reappearing somewhere else.

As the Warding barrier is only 3m high, you could say that Air magic puts you above the 3m. I frankly don't want to cope with that and consider that teleport does not cross the intervening space (a la Nightcrawler, but without the 'Bamf' sound, nor the sulfur smell)

[Akhôrahil]

47 minutes ago, Kloster said:

As the Warding barrier is only 3m high, you could say that Air magic puts you above the 3m.

I think the majority opinion (including Word of Steve Perrin) is that Warding creates a roof.

[Runeblogger]

36 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think the majority opinion (including Word of Steve Perrin) is that Warding creates a roof.

I thought it creates a cube

[resurrected duck]

From the rulebook,

The wands can be made of any material and can be so spaced as to enclose a maximum area of up to 100 square meters. The spell extends into the air for 3 meters above the wands, and underground to the depth of the wands.

So, yes, a cube. The spell is quite powerful. Dealing damage both on entry and exit is broken in my humble opinion. Just make the area 1cm wide and anybody going through must both enter and leave. A Ward 3  laid in front of the entry of a room now deals 6D3 damage,  12 points on average, ignoring armor.

Undispellable, and of course, you can lay several wards 1cm from each others to make a single step in the room activate them all. If the monster survives, he probably doesn't want to retreat either.

In RQG, Warding is known from start by characters, who can cast 3 points of warding from the very beginning. So a party of 5 players can set a trap dealing 5x6D3 damage, 60pts on average, 30 at minimum, that can't be dispelled,  detectable only by magical means, that remains in effect as long as they wish and targeting only enemies.  Even if the GM rules that the damage is taken only on entrance, it is still 30 damage on average, which seems completely broken to me. And this is not even a rule abuse. Warding should be restricted to Rune Priests. This is meant to protect temples, not to ambush monsters in dungeons. Alas, characters start with Sanctify so that anything is sacred ground now.

[Dissolv]

Why can't the Warding be dispelled?  I have always understood that for a permanent change to the world you have to use POW to fuel the enchantment.  Yet we have always played Warding like a regular Rune spell, using Rune points. 

I can't find in the rules why it cannot be dispelled, unless it was intended to be fueled with sacrifice of POW, like other enchantments????  Help a brother out here - -I even found an exception to Warding (by name!) under Detect Trap.  But nada under Dispel. 

Should this be a permanent POW loss spell, and therefore undispellable? 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Dissolv

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

 

I don’t think Dispels work on enchantments? (Although a GM ruling that you can temporarily suppress it might make sense.)

I seem to remember that the only way to remove a warding is to remove one of the four stakes outlining the area.
Neutralize Magic would temporarily eliminate the effects of the Warding, possibly only on part of the area depending on the target and range of that spell.

Countermagic (or Shield plus Countermagic) can undo the disrupt. Not sure about the alarm feature.

 

30 minutes ago, resurrected duck said:

The wands can be made of any material and can be so spaced as to enclose a maximum area of up to 100 square meters. The spell extends into the air for 3 meters above the wands, and underground to the depth of the wands.

So, yes, a cube.

With three sharp angles and an inward pointing corner, you ought to be able to create an L-shaped polygon which may dissect a corridor twice.

It is a bit unclear what happens if there is a hill or other >3m high obstacle in the middle of the warded area.
If you ward a 2.5 m high room in a building with 20 cm thick ceilings, the floor in the next story would have something like a warded carpet...
 

[Dissolv]

I should have searched before I asked.  Apparently the reason that I remember it being dispellable is because it always was.   I found this:

@David Scott  posts a comparison of the RQ2, RQ3, and RQ:G text for Warding.  Relevant part from RQ2:

"The Warding spell lasts until the wands are removed and any attempt to remove the wands by anyone other than the caster will trigger the defenses. It can also be dispelled with the appropriate strength of Dispel Magic. "

In my copy of Red Book of Magic, it is no longer even an enchantment.  It iust "Ritual, Stackable".   

I think you can dispel it. 

 

 

[resurrected duck]

2 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Why can't the Warding be dispelled?

I don't think that an enchantment can be dispelled. Am I correct?

From the Warding spell description in the RQG rulebook.

The Warding spell remains in effect until the props are
removed. Anyone but the caster that attempts to touch the
stakes is affected by the spell. But after suffering the Ward-
ing’s effect, the sufferer can then remove the stakes. The
stakes need not be visible to work.

The wording from RQ2 allowing the ward to be  dispelled is gone.

I don't have the RBoM and I don't know if there is an erratum. Even if  Warding is dispellable, it seems to be a very strong spell.

EDIT: I realize that Warding is not an enchantment anymore in RBoM. So, it may be dispellable in RQG, as it was in RQ2...

Edited March 6, 2021 by resurrected duck
correction

[Godlearner]

The wands can be made of any material and can be so spaced as to enclose a maximum area of up to 100 square meters. The spell extends into the air for 3 meters above the wands, and underground to the depth of the wands.

Square meters imply a perimeter defense rather than a cube. 

We have played that a Warding spell can be taken down with a Dismiss/Dispel/Neutralize, but the wands are not affected and can be reactivated by casting the Warding spell again (without the enchant rolls or POW rolls) 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, resurrected duck said:

The Warding spell remains in effect until the props are removed.

This is central to the spell's maintenance.  Remove a prop and the warding is dispelled.  This is why you'll generally hide the wardings - maybe bury them in the earth, seal them in stone columns, or whatever is appropriate for the temple or place you're protecting.

But it also means that movement of the props by other means will probably break the warding (just like breaking an enchanted helmet or sword breaks those enchantments).  A good Create Fissure spell should move or undermine a prop and break a Warding.  One way that Maran Gor can flex her power. 

[David Scott]

21 hours ago, Dissolv said:

It is also a primary target for Dismiss and Dispel magics.

In RQG Warding isn't an enchantment. Enchantments use permanent POW. As it's a rune spell it can be Neutralised, Dismissed  or Dispelled with enough points. The caster can always boost it with more rune or magic points at the time of casting.

Older editiosn of RQ may treat it differently.

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

We have played that a Warding spell can be taken down with a Dismiss/Dispel/Neutralize, but the wands are not affected and can be reactivated by casting the Warding spell again (without the enchant rolls or POW rolls) 

You'd need to cast the rune magic again, spending rune points, but the if the wards are there you wouldn't need to replace them.

3 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Should this be a permanent POW loss spell, and therefore undispellable?

It's a rune spell, uses rune points, see above.

[Runeblogger]

So do you need to cast the Dispel etc against the props in order to Dispel it?

And would a Teleport circunvent the Warding?  🤔

[Kloster]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think the majority opinion (including Word of Steve Perrin) is that Warding creates a roof.

The rules clearly don't tell that. But I don't see why it can not. It's one of the case where Glorantha (in that case RQ) can vary.

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, resurrected duck said:

So, yes, a cube.

Not a cube: 100 square meters. It can be 100m * 0.1m.

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Why can't the Warding be dispelled?

Because it is an Enchanting ritual.

4 hours ago, Dissolv said:

I have always understood that for a permanent change to the world you have to use POW to fuel the enchantment.  Yet we have always played Warding like a regular Rune spell, using Rune points. 

It is not permanent, it is until someone removes one of the wands.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Countermagic (or Shield plus Countermagic) can undo the disrupt. Not sure about the alarm feature.

Logically, countermagic should not counter the alarm, but yes, would avoid the damage.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

With three sharp angles and an inward pointing corner, you ought to be able to create an L-shaped polygon which may dissect a corridor twice.

Yes. Tricky to do, but very efficient.

4 hours ago, Dissolv said:

In my copy of Red Book of Magic, it is no longer even an enchantment.  It iust "Ritual, Stackable". 

If the RBOM tell it is not anymore an Enchanting ritual, as soon as it is available, it can be dispelled, but now, RAW, it can not.