Warding question

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Square meters imply a perimeter defense rather than a cube. 

square meters imply a surface

a cube or a sphere or any 3d shape has a surface

 

21 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

A further question regarding Warding: would you say that you could circunvent it by teleporting into it?

no I don't allow it

the intent of warding is to create a "safe zone"

I consider it as a "state" machine : you trigger the warding effect when you change your state :

state 1: outside

state 2: inside

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Countermagic (or Shield plus Countermagic) can undo the disrupt. Not sure about the alarm feature.

It's not exactly a Disrupt - you would need fairly large Countermagic, likely the size of the Warding (or maybe the size of the Warding for effect but discounting additional area).

Countermagic doesn't work against other detection magic, and I think that's a good analogue here.

[Dissolv]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Because it is an Enchanting ritual.

Alright, you seem like a RAW kind of guy, so I'll ask without any intention of being disrespectful.  Where does it say that you can't dispel an Enchanting Ritual? 

p.247 -- Spell Terminology:  Defines both Enchantment and Ritual.  Neither definition includes inability to dispel.  Instant spells ARE defined as not subject to dispel on the very next page.  Warding of course is not instant.  Under Enchantment I note it says that it "usually" requires the exchange for points of POW. 

p. 249.  Enchantment section, clearly states that an Enchantment requires that the enchanter lose something permanently -- normally POW.   It does talk about symbols being required, and if those are destroyed, then so is the enchantment.  So a bit of a contradiction already, but at least that last part tracks with the warding sticks.

 

I mean clearly, I have always, for decades now, played that you cannot dispel an enchantment.  They are, as the rules state, a permanent change to the world.  Enchant a Bladesharp 4 matrix into an Axe, you must break the axe to break the enchantment.   But darned if I can find that stated anywhere in the RQ:G rules explicitly.  If I were to go full RAW on RQ:G, right now it would look a lot like magic items and bound elementals and such can all be dispelled.  I do not think that is the case.

Warding was always previously dispellable, as per the RQ2 quote I put above.   It also fails the contradictory statements about Enchantments because nothing permanent is required to make a Warding "as permanent" as a spell matrix.   So it isn't the "ritual", or "enchantment" tag that makes Warding dispellable in my view.  It is simply the fact that it is only fueled by Rune Points, not POW.   This is not in the rules per se, and if this was a tournament system, it would be a problem. 

However I do think that is the right way to play it.  Permanent POW sacrifice gets you a permanent change to the world.  Warding doesn't meet that criteria.    Spell Matrix Enchantment does. 

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

If the RBOM tell it is not anymore an Enchanting ritual, as soon as it is available, it can be dispelled, but now, RAW, it can not.

But RBOM is available.  I bought it.  I don't have some type of advance copy. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Dissolv

[Kloster]

48 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Alright, you seem like a RAW kind of guy,

Yes, I am.

48 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

o I'll ask without any intention of being disrespectful.

You are not. Don't worry.

48 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Where does it say that you can't dispel an Enchanting Ritual? 

You are right: Nothing in RQG tells it. My memory was from a previous version. RQ3 Magic book p55: "an enchantment can not be dispelled, dismissed or neutralized". So, for RQG, you are right.

 

48 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

I mean clearly, I have always, for decades now, played that you cannot dispel an enchantment.  They are, as the rules state, a permanent change to the world.  Enchant a Bladesharp 4 matrix into an Axe, you must break the axe to break the enchantment.   But darned if I can find that stated anywhere in the RQ:G rules explicitly.  If I were to go full RAW on RQ:G, right now it would look a lot like magic items and bound elementals and such can all be dispelled.  I do not think that is the case.

You are right, the whole paragraph has been omitted.

48 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

So it isn't the "ritual",

Ritual, for me, are not 'by definition, impossible to dispel.

48 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Warding was always previously dispellable, as per the RQ2 quote I put above. 

As I haven't played RQ2 since 85, I don't remember, but I believe you (my copy is 150 klick away and I can't check, but even if I could, I would not: I believe you).

48 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

It is simply the fact that it is only fueled by Rune Points, not POW.

RQG p250, usually, enchant requires the loss of POW.

48 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

But RBOM is available.  I bought it.  I don't have some type of advance copy. 

As I'm waiting for the physical copy, I have not checked the pdf availability. My mistake.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Kloster

[Bill the barbarian]

12 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Alright, you seem like a RAW kind of guy, so I'll ask without any intention of being disrespectful.  Where does it say that you can't dispel an Enchanting Ritual? 

 

11 hours ago, Kloster said:

Yes, I am.

 

Nicely navigated crew! And I get a whack of good info to boot!

[French Desperate WindChild]

in the raw we have (at least):

 

- instant spell,

you can dispell it with your own dispel magic (but only sorcerers with less than 10 INT may have this idea)

 

- temporal spell

you can dispell it, that the "dispell magic" effect

 

- ritual (enchantment) spell

you can dispell it by destroying the symbols

 

- ritual (no enchantment) spell

here there is nothing described (I didn't find anything at least)

 

My opinion:

- all the cases I see (summon entity *, warding, etc...) have some mundane "proof" of the ritual: it can be the summoned creature, it can be the material you use for warding, etc...

SO I see it like an enchantment, but without pow sacrifice, then :

if you destroyed this material (ban the creature, break the material, ...) you dispell the spell.

* you can see summon entity as "open the gates" (so a temporal spell), or "the creature is here" (no time limit but not enchanted spell, like warding)

 

One spell may be created : "dispell enchantment", in this case you could sacrifice pow to dispell an enchantment : for example 1 POW for 1POW of the enchantment, minus  (or not) POW dedicated to conditions. Avaiable to any spell based on mundane "proof" (symbols, creature, ...)

This spell could be usefull if you want to break an enchantment without breaking the material ( don't break this body, only the enchantment on it)

 

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Where does it say that you can't dispel an Enchanting Ritual?

The key word on page 247 is Permanent:

Quote

Enchantment: These spells create a permanent magical effect, usually in exchange for points of POW.

An enchantment can be broken, (page 249):

Quote

Enchanters usually inscribe the Runes in as permanent a fashion as possible: if the symbols are destroyed, the enchantment is also destroyed.

but breaking is not the same as dispelling.

[PhilHibbs]

I would have said, before this thread, that it can't be dispelled but that's clearly me carrying over knowledge from an older edition. Interesting, I will have to consider whether it can be dispelled in my game.

I'm on the side of teleportation triggering it, but I wouldn't rule out the existence of forms of teleportation that do not. Maybe sorcery could bypass it, with the right spell, or a Heroquest power.

[Kloster]

59 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I would have said, before this thread, that it can't be dispelled but that's clearly me carrying over knowledge from an older edition. Interesting, I will have to consider whether it can be dispelled in my game.

Same for me.

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm on the side of teleportation triggering it, but I wouldn't rule out the existence of forms of teleportation that do not.

I'm on the side of teleportation not triggering it, but I wouldn't rule out the existence of forms of teleportation that do.

[Lordabdul]

Just now, Kloster said:

I'm on the side of teleportation not triggering it

Same: I prefer having the players do cool things with their powers. No point nerfing it in my opinion, especially since there's probably only one PC that has it, and given the high cost of this spell they have other issues: either blowing most or all of their RPs to teleport the whole party, or teleport alone and end up by themselves inside the ward, racing to find the stones and destroy them before any guardian creatures get to them. IMHO it's a trade off and will lead to interesting problem solving and cool scenes.

[Akhôrahil]

Re: teleportation.

"Each point of Warding counts as 1 point of Countermagic against spells cast across the barrier"

So it seems that in principle it would work, but since even a Countermagic 4 (largest possible) doesn't stop a (3 Rune Point) Teleportation, it's just not enough countermagic.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Dissolv]

I believe it shakes out this way:

1. Warding can be dispelled (clarified in RBoM by removing the "enchantment" label)
2. You can teleport through it (Teleport clearly beats it in points, even if you believe the countermagic would impede it.)  GM choice if you suffer the damage or set off the alarm right now.  I can definitely see both ways being argued. 
3. Enchantments (which warding is not) cannot be dispelled.  This is apparently so commonsense that it was never explicitly stated as it was in previous editions, only implied. 
4. Decision about a "roof", or "floor" to the warding is likely a GM to GM decision.

 

[Kloster]

10 hours ago, Dissolv said:

I believe it shakes out this way:

1. Warding can be dispelled (clarified in RBoM by removing the "enchantment" label)
2. You can teleport through it (Teleport clearly beats it in points, even if you believe the countermagic would impede it.)  GM choice if you suffer the damage or set off the alarm right now.  I can definitely see both ways being argued. 
3. Enchantments (which warding is not) cannot be dispelled.  This is apparently so commonsense that it was never explicitly stated as it was in previous editions, only implied. 
4. Decision about a "roof", or "floor" to the warding is likely a GM to GM decision.

 

Perfect.

[Joerg]

Ok, so it can be dispelled. But how?
The barrier is faintly visible, but is that barrier what needs to be targeted, or do you need to target one of the anchoring sticks to dispel it?
 

For comparison, take the Ernalda spell Inviolable. You need to dispel it on the Ernalda cultist, not on someone who happens to be in her 3 meter radius. If you cannot see the Ernalda cultist, you cannot dispel Inviolable.

 

On the teleportation issue - I might not let it trigger if someone hostile set up a warding in the Guided Teleport arrival area in an Orlanth temple, as it might be argued that the returnee belongs to that area. Any other teleport insertion (on sight) would be crossing that barrier.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Joerg

[French Desperate WindChild]

13 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm on the side of teleportation triggering it, but I wouldn't rule out the existence of forms of teleportation that do not. Maybe sorcery could bypass it, with the right spell, or a Heroquest power.

I m on your side

And I would allow that an illumination power (aka trick the god) can also works (but I don't allow easily illumination

 

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

So it seems that in principle it would work, but since even a Countermagic 4 (largest possible) doesn't stop a (3 Rune Point) Teleportation, it's just not enough countermagic.

that is a very good point. The main issue of teleportation is you have to be sure you will not teleported yourself in a wall/fire/anything deadly

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ok, so it can be dispelled. But how?
The barrier is faintly visible, but is that barrier what needs to be targeted, or do you need to target one of the anchoring sticks to dispel it?

For comparison, take the Ernalda spell Inviolable. You need to dispel it on the Ernalda cultist, not on someone who happens to be in her 3 meter radius. If you cannot see the Ernalda cultist, you cannot dispel Inviolable.

I disagree, I think if you can see anywhere that the spell covers, you can dispel it. No hiding the centre of an area spell in a box!

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m on your side

It is dangerous being on the side of a trickster, I will betray you in a heartbeat!  

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

The main issue of teleportation is you have to be sure you will not teleported yourself in a wall/fire/anything deadly

Getting off topic here, a little, but I don't think that teleporting into solid objects is possible, although fire or poison gas or water (or warded areas!) is a danger. This is magic, not science. If it wouldn't happen in a serious fantasy movie, it wouldn't happen in my game.

Edited March 8, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[David Scott]

Looking at the published uses of Warding, on the cradle (Pavis box), a door threshold, Borderlands (spoilers), Griffin mountain (spoilers), The Haunted Ruins (spoilers), Sun County (extensive temple defences), most of the staves are well hidden, permanent installations. One is really obvious, but the staves so large you can't move them. Others are just stones on the floor. The main use is the alarm function and in one case, the countermagic to protect troops.

Detect traps doesn't work on it,

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ok, so it can be dispelled. But how?

Detect magic will work on the staves as they are "magically potent objects".

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The barrier is faintly visible,

The spell says "The activated wands connect invisibly to form a barrier detectable only by magical means." (page 347)

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

but is that barrier what needs to be targeted, or do you need to target one of the anchoring sticks to dispel it?

Given removing a stake can break the spell, targeting a stake seems sensible.

As to whether there is a "roof": "The activated wands connect invisibly to form a barrier detectable only by magical means." (page 347). The only way the diagonals can connect is by a "roof".

Teleportation is certainly an option, but if you can afford to spend 3 Rune points on teleportation, a 4 point Dismiss Magic might be better, unless the Warding has been boosted with magic points (but you would never know).

[Dissolv]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

"The activated wands connect invisibly to form a barrier detectable only by magical means." (page 347). The only way the diagonals can connect is by a "roof".

But no reason to think that they necessarily connect to each other in parallel. It could be a serial connection, which actually better explains why destroying one breaks the warding. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

The question I have is why this spell will be used by temples if any orlanth initiate can pass without trigger it ?

What is the reason to spend time to make and protect wands, use magic, etc..., if a lot of people, known to be barbarian and thief, can enter without issue (or at least, without issue with this spell)

Why no priest in centuries / millenars was able to find a spell or to improve this spell to make it a little bit more.. useful ?

Or maybe Orlanthi are so dumb that they were unable to identify this security breach.

Our ancestors say that when they plundered the yelm temple, they suffered magical damage (just 4d3, ridiculous)

It is time to honor our ancestors, let's try to open the portal and take damage, jump over the fence is blasphemy

 

 

 

[Lordabdul]

33 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

The question I have is why this spell will be used by temples if any orlanth initiate can pass without trigger it ?

"Any Orlanth initiate"?  If you mean "anybody who has Teleportation", that's really far from "any Orlanthi". Maybe 20% at best? (but I'd say muuuuch lower  IMG)

Also, it's not going to be the only protection that a temple has. Security systems (and in particular cyber security) have a concept of "security layers" IIRC. Basically, not any one layer is impenetrable, but each layer reduces the number of people that can get to the next layer. Nothing is uncrackable, but that doesn't mean it's useless to try and put any protection, because going from "everyone gets in" to "only 20% of people get in" is already a huge win. Put another layer that only another 20% of people can get through and now you're at less than 5% of people getting through (assuming you picked the second layer to be quite exclusive to the people who can get past the first one).

So once you've gone past the warding, you also have some spirit guardians, some good old physical traps, and so on. It will take a team of well coordinated individuals with complementary abilities to get past all of them... oh hey, that sounds a lot like an adventuring party going through a dungeon, doesn't it? 😄 

Edited March 8, 2021 by lordabdul

[David Scott]

20 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

The question I have is why this spell will be used by temples if any orlanth initiate can pass without trigger it ?

Teleportation is given to Orlanth by Mastakos, an associate god. So you need at least a major or great temple with a Mastakos shrine to get the rune spell. We know of one such place, the Orlanth temple on Larnste's table. There also a likelyhood of one of Orlanth Adventurous's cart temples having a shrine too. But overall the spell is not common.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

29 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Any Orlanth initiate"?  If you mean "anybody who has Teleportation", that's really far from "any Orlanthi". Maybe 20% at best? (but I'd say muuuuch lower  IMG)

 

23 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Teleportation is given to Orlanth by Mastakos, an associate god

teleportation, but also flight, leap , command sylph and others.

Of course I don't speak about warden in building

 

I just say there is no logic to see this magical protection, as only bidimensional or only dedicated to closed room.

 

that means you can protect an area against lions, but not against hawks ? Why ?

[Godlearner]

Quote

that means you can protect an area against lions, but not against hawks ?

You can set the warding wands into a wall, two at ceiling level and two at floor level and vola the area is protected against hawks.

[resurrected duck]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Our ancestors say that when they plundered the yelm temple, they suffered magical damage (just 4d3, ridiculous)

Are you joking? In my temples, even the corridor leading to the toilets is protected by a dozen wardings, laid one after another, in case of an enemy with urgent needs. That's 12x4d3 both in and out, bypassing armor.

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by resurrected duck
typo

[Bill the barbarian]

8 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

You can set the warding wands into a wall, two at ceiling level and two at floor level and vola the area is protected against hawks.

Took a sec to reorient myself, got it now. As long as the room is 3m wide at that point it should fly quite nicely.

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Bill the barbarian