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Chivalrous is short-hand for "Cult of Hrestol". The cult of Hrestoli imposes a stringent code on its initiates and demands that they: 1. Uphold justice and fight injustice. The Hrestoli ultimatel

Joerg greatly overstates the case here. Orlanth (and indeed most others) is viewed like a Greek deity by the Esrolians - powerful but capricious. Your reading of the Esrolian Grandmothers is just plai

Jeff provided a series of posts on FB today regarding the Holy Country, a couple Silver Age heroes, and Belintar... Some of you might find this interesting - it is a common version of the myth cy

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I wonder which Ralian polity had the leisure to invade across Pralorela and all the way down to the Noshain River mouth - this is shortly after the destruction of Parthan. Although it could have been a powerful condottiere with something like a bribe to take his business that way rather than one of the Safelstran city states seeking imperial glory.

 

The term "chivalrous" is inherited from RQ2 Companion, which provides most of the Holy Country text Jeff posted there verbatim, with a few systematic changes (like replacing Pharoah with God-King). 

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3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I wonder what, specifically, Jeff intended with the term "chivalrous". The word conjures various connotations, not all of which are applicable, I'm guessing.

Chivalrous is short-hand for "Cult of Hrestol". The cult of Hrestoli imposes a stringent code on its initiates and demands that they:

1. Uphold justice and fight injustice. The Hrestoli ultimately must determine what is Just and what is Unjust, and fight for what is Just. This includes an obligation to protect the weak (especially women and children) from the strong, but generally excludes barbarians and the Elder Races; indeed this obligation is often celebrated by fighting monsters or Krjalk. Justice is considered more important than such virtues as Loyalty.

2. Sacrifice oneself for the good of others. A Hrestoli is expected to sacrifice themselves to uphold Justice.

3. It is the responsibility of mortals to make a world they can live in. This creed was formed in the early Dawn Ages when humans were weak and few. Its focus is always towards humans, their survival and later their dominance, rather than on co-existence or cooperation with the rest of the cosmos.

So the Trader Princes were Hrestoli Talars, who were sworn to uphold justice, fight injustice, protect the weak, etc. Their interpretation of the code would have included the local barbarians as being within their mandate, but not the trolls. They included Issaries as their ancestor (descendants of Garzeen and Froalar), and have access to the Rune spell Create Neutral Ground.

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16 hours ago, Joerg said:

I wonder which Ralian polity had the leisure to invade across Pralorela and all the way down to the Noshain River mouth - this is shortly after the destruction of Parthan. Although it could have been a powerful condottiere with something like a bribe to take his business that way rather than one of the Safelstran city states seeking imperial glory.

 

I'm unfamiliar with Parthan.  Could someone explain it to me?

 

It also seems to me that there are 2 questions: the cultural origins of the explorers, and the particularly polity that funded the expedition (Columbus wasn't Spanish and all that).

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Partan was a city-state on Lake Felster which was destroyed in revenge by Tinaros for sinking the fleet the count of Tinaros was on. It is part of the Argin Terror backstory. The ruins of the place are on an island in the eastern part of the lake, halfway between Tortun and Tiskos.

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7 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I'm unfamiliar with Parthan.  Could someone explain it to me?

A city destroyed by Argin Terror.  Previously the capital of a league of the same name but never particularly powerful.  

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On 3/15/2021 at 4:06 AM, Jeff said:

This includes an obligation to protect the weak (especially women and children) from the strong, but generally excludes barbarians and the Elder Races; indeed this obligation is often celebrated by fighting monsters or Krjalk.

As this is ostensibly a thread about the Holy Country: has there ever been a Malkioni sect or society that sought co-existence with the Elder Races, rather than supremacy?  I'm not sure whether the Autarchy counts as one, given how many permutations of belief Arkat went through before founding it.

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22 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

As this is ostensibly a thread about the Holy Country: has there ever been a Malkioni sect or society that sought co-existence with the Elder Races, rather than supremacy?  I'm not sure whether the Autarchy counts as one, given how many permutations of belief Arkat went through before founding it.

I think the Autarchy in its "stygian" aspect is still a great place to start. By the time it was over, there were a lot of troll forces baked into that framework. OOO and his Shadowlands seem to have transferred their role as HQ environment to the God Learner Empire while that lasted.

Waertag- and other triolini-oriented cultures have largely been pushed into the historical background and are probably especially controversial in the doom of the Quinpolic League but the archaeology is there for those who look. The triolini have full Elder status for a reason not really appreciated right now. That will change.

 

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2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

As this is ostensibly a thread about the Holy Country: has there ever been a Malkioni sect or society that sought co-existence with the Elder Races, rather than supremacy?  I'm not sure whether the Autarchy counts as one, given how many permutations of belief Arkat went through before founding it.

Both the Brithini and the Seshnegi have a long history of somewhat cooperative co-existence with the Aldryami, respecting one another's realms. The Fronelan Malkioni might be slightly less friendly with the two great forests they are bracketed between, if the refusal of Loskalmi loggers in Winterwood is an indication thereof.

Lady Gwelenor approached the elves of Gilboch and seems to have received the right to establish a human presence there as a petitioner rather than with overwhelming magical or military power.

The Umathelan great forests were quite arrogant towards all humans in their lands, which may explain the great sorcery which incinerated 90% of the Vralos forest shortly after the Abiding Book had been revealed.

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On 3/17/2021 at 12:46 AM, scott-martin said:

Waertag- and other triolini-oriented cultures have largely been pushed into the historical background and are probably especially controversial in the doom of the Quinpolic League but the archaeology is there for those who look. The triolini have full Elder status for a reason not really appreciated right now. That will change.

The Waertagi are also associated mostly with Piscoi mermen, who they have interbred with, which means most likely the Malasp. While the Waertagi are said to have been allied with the Ludoch of the Mirrorsea during the reign of the OOO, it does seem likely there are quite significant tensions between the Ludoch and the Waertagi, given how much the Ludoch and the Malasp hate one another (for various reasons including the Malasp tendency to regard cetaceans as tasty food). 

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24 minutes ago, davecake said:

The Waertagi are also associated mostly with Piscoi mermen, who they have interbred with, which means most likely the Malasp.

I'm not seeing this.  There is mention of they interbreed with merfolk to produce a gilled subtyle (Guide p465) but the Piscoi are not mentioned.  There's no mention of an association with Piscoi there.  The Malasp were enlisted to destroy the God Learners (Guide p104) but a prior relationship with the Waertagi is not described.

 

24 minutes ago, davecake said:

While the Waertagi are said to have been allied with the Ludoch of the Mirrorsea during the reign of the OOO, it does seem likely there are quite significant tensions between the Ludoch and the Waertagi, given how much the Ludoch and the Malasp hate one another (for various reasons including the Malasp tendency to regard cetaceans as tasty food). 

If there were significant tensions, then why would the Ludoch chose to leave the Kingdom of Night and ally with the Waertagi?  

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4 hours ago, davecake said:

The Waertagi are also associated mostly with Piscoi mermen, who they have interbred with, which means most likely the Malasp.

What is your source for that? Neither Missing Lands nor the Introduction to Glorantha nor Men of the Sea nor the Guide nor the Sourcebook have anything to say about such a preference.

Gilled Waertagi share the upper-body appearance of piscoi merfolk, but retain their human legs. Those may have fin-like extensions, though, making them look a lot like the scuba divers in Captain Nemo's employ.

 

Originally, they claim Ludoch ancestry, as per the Guide p.465:

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Waertag,  the  founder  of  his  race,  was born in the God Time as a result of a union between  Malkion  the  Seer  and  a  Ludoch mermaid.  He  was  amphibious  by  nature, and  although  he  often  stayed  at  the  courts of Danmalastan, he escaped the bondage of the caste system. He had several human and Ludoch  wives,  and  many  children  by  them. His tribe increased greatly.

I used to be a bit dubious about Jeleka (Malkion's sea-wife) being a Ludoch, but it is possble if you postulate that the Neliomi waters were transplanted to the southern Homewart Ocean by the Breaking of the World. She could have been a Waertain niiad taking that shape.

Warera would have been a niiad mermaid, as her encounter with Aerlit would be in the time frame of the Vadrudi "wife-raid" from which the Triolini kindred descended. Waertag would have been three quarter niiad, one quarter storm god. While legged, his sea ancestry is fairly strong.

I don't see how interbreeding with air-breathing Ludoch would have spawned a gilled sub-race of Waertagi. Interbreeding with niiad mermaid kin of the Ludoch however easily carries those genes, and I suspect that's what happened.

An alternative breeding partner may have been the Hreekeen Orca-form Triolini who swam and burned besides the Waertagi at the Battle of Tanian's Victory.

This topic was discussed here almost five years ago, e.g.:

 

4 hours ago, davecake said:

While the Waertagi are said to have been allied with the Ludoch of the Mirrorsea during the reign of the OOO, it does seem likely there are quite significant tensions between the Ludoch and the Waertagi, given how much the Ludoch and the Malasp hate one another (for various reasons including the Malasp tendency to regard cetaceans as tasty food). 

The piscoi merfolk anywhere near the Choralinthor Bay would have been the Ysabbau, who may range into the Solkathi and Rozgali seas. No idea whether those charming entities have an appetite for Ludoch tails.

The Waertagi may have cooperated with the Ysabbau.

 

One little fact which surprised me when I looked up the sources for the Waertagi was the fact that Sog's ruins were destroyed in the Great Flood. Possibly by Worcha? The port would have been at the eastern shore of the Aroka Sea, at the foot of its slope which covered parts of the Rockwood Mountains and presumably much of Balazar at the far end of that standing wave.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Thread seems to be drifting away from topic with the tides...

Please direct the thread back to topic of the Holy Country, Silver Age Heroes, and Belintar.

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7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Not that I agree with the overall take, but are you sure the locations of merfolk in God Time are as static as that, Joerg?

If they have ancestral waters which they can draw powers from, yes, I think they would like to stay with those waters.

However, when and from where did the Ludoch arrive in the Rozgali and Solkathi Seas? Would they have East Islander features, or would they be Wareran (or at least Wartain)?

It took the Breaking of the World to return the Seas to Kethaela. Whichever merfolk might have inhabited the Faralinthor Sea would have had to survive a prolonged dry period in a salt desert to see the Silver Age.

Also, at that time the Neliomi Sea had been tapped into a fetid, energy-less body of water. When Sramak's River followed Sky River Titan's lead, forming the three Doom Currents, waters from the edge of the Lozenge flooded in from the West. 

Somebody must have built the walls of Old Karse in this time - there was little reason to place a city for the Pelaskites there while Choralinthor lay empty and no rivers had their roots in Faralinthor's basin any more.

Panaxles might be a good candidate for that. (Could that mean that Seapolis was designed by Sestarto?)

 

The arrival of the Ingareens in the Left Arm might fall into this period, too, as might the Waertagi beacon at Jon Barat (Talar Hold in older maps). For the Waertagi, this would have been a return into the neighborhood of their old drydock site just west of Defender's Shore. Nochet would have become their new location for a Drydock, so to say the successor of Ex (a rumored city of Tada's Prax, half a day's walk from Sog's Ruins).

In a strange way, the Breaking of the World was an upbeat event for the Choralinthor Bay and its peoples. While their victory in the Unity Battle had prevented an earlier collapse of the Spike, that event created more favorable conditions to a number of peoples.

Worse times still were coming. The two devils Wakboth and Kajabor still had to tear into one another, sending one down into Hell and the other into Prax. Nochet had to be abandoned for a while, despite the advantages the (brief?) contact with the Waertagi had brought to the city, with most of the population following Queen Norinel into the Obsidian Palace.

 

The Silver Age is about getting out of the hiding holes and re-uniting a cooperation which had turned the Devil and its initial host of horrors away from the lands which used to be the Vingkotling kingdom.

 

Placing Panaxles in the Silver Age makes attributing pre-Greater Darkness events to him sort of problematic, IMO. Even if he is now another bastard of the Powers, an imitation of Mostal the Maker.

The Shadow Plateau makes sense as the truncated peak of a volcano deity. It isn't the only peak suffering decapitation in the the region. It isn't the only volcano that was overcome by hostile forces. It is not the only myth in which the volcano god was enslaved.

For most of history, the Obsidian Palace was the highest elevation in the world. Its tip was broken off by a passing planet, star, or possibly the sun, after the Sunpath got established.

Veskarthen's mountain is absent from the list of sacred peaks. Cliffhome is in it. How comes?

 

Having Panaxles erect a kilometer high plateau of pretty much unworked rock doesn't quite feel in character with "The Architect", the person using pre-made shapes to create big things out of them. Building just some rock jutting up steeply would be worthy of "The Landscape Gardener", but "The Architect"?

Carving Esrola's throne out of the side of that plateau, or erecting Axe Hall over the holiest site of Babeester Gor in the region (if not the world), now those are feats worthy of Panaxles. As would be overseeing the construction of the Waertagi drydock at Nochet.

 

Those drydocks are important to the role of Nochet as the greatest city in that part of the world. Yes, it already was the most populous place at the Dawn, with roughly three times as many inhabitants as any of the major Heortling citadels. The Esrolians still were outnumbered by the Heortlings by at least 3:1.

Is Merngala a Silver Age heroine if she saw Ernalda "not dead but sleeping"? Or is she a goddess rather than a heroine, a local goddess welcoming the Lightbringer gods and their rescuees on the day of the Dawn (before Compromise prevented them from manifesting again outside of rites)?

 

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