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How important is tribal identity compared to clan identity? 

Joining an Orlanth Rex tribe costs the clan a whole lot of sovereignty and of control over resources. Clan temple possessions and tenants become tribal temple possessions and tenants. Giving up such privileges to a commonly held super-authority is hard - just look at where the European Union struggles to develop a common structure.

Clans that suffer too many losses get degraded into bloodlines inside another clan. The Coming Storm shows how Maboder exiles who escaped enslavement by Jomes Wulf became a new Red Cow bloodline in recent history. Now, with the Lunar Empire's protection for the veterans turned stead-holders gone, what is going to happen in Wulfsland? Will the Maboder clans reform from those bloodlines, swelled with former Maboder slaves of the Lunars? Will they re-found the Maboder tribe, or will they join the Cinsina?

I hope the Jonstown description in the Starter Set will address the status of Wulfsland in the city organizations. Did Jomes Wulf or the Provincial Government inherit the Maboder tribal manors in Jonstown or Boldhome? Who owns them now?

 

What happens to an entity that agreed to become the wyter of a community when that community falls apart? Is the entity killed for good?

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Speaking of the Starter Set:

Jonstown has lost two confederation tribes, the Dinacoli and the Maboder.

The Dinacoli left by their own decision. What did they give up in the city? Do they retain any former possessions in the city? How many Dinacoli tribesfolk remained after the tribe left the confederation? How did this affect their legal status, their housing situation? How many left?

The Maboder possessions would likely have fallen to the Lunars, but with the Lunar occupation ended, who controls these now?

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

How important is tribal identity compared to clan identity? 

In theory, Orlanthi clans can switch between tribes with no problem.

In practice, it's a bit more complex than that.

Individuals might have a stronger tie to their Clan than their Tribe, as Clan allegiances don't change as often as Tribal allegiances.

Also, you belong to your Tribe through your Clan, whereas you belong to your Clan on a personal basis.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Now, with the Lunar Empire's protection for the veterans turned stead-holders gone, what is going to happen in Wulfsland? Will the Maboder clans reform from those bloodlines, swelled with former Maboder slaves of the Lunars? Will they re-found the Maboder tribe, or will they join the Cinsina?

Some might do any or all of these.

Some Maboder families might remain with the Red Cow, in gratitude for taking them in, but some might immediately break away and reform the Maboder. Depending on the reaction of Red Cow members, they might leave the Red Cow and not want to join Maboder, so might join another clan instead.

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12 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Some Maboder families might remain with the Red Cow, in gratitude for taking them in, but some might immediately break away and reform the Maboder. Depending on the reaction of Red Cow members, they might leave the Red Cow and not want to join Maboder, so might join another clan instead.

I think you can even find families splitting between red cow and "new" maboder for any reason, good or bad

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The starter set will touch on this I expect, but this could easily be the core of an entire campaign. I mean the Wulf lands are right _there_ and they are crying out for someone to take them post dragonrise. 

 

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There is also some beef brewing up between the Telmori and a certain Argrath White Bull, resulting in henceforth the Wolf Runners being something very different from what the counter in Dragon Pass and the history of Sartar would make one expect.

The dispersal of the Telmori tribe would open up old tribal territory of the Torkani, and open up the northern borders of the Aranwyth and Kheldon tribes, possibly encroaching on the Sazdorf clan.

But, given the number of tribes involved, this may be stuff for the Sartar Book(s) rather than the Starter Box.

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Depends what drives the merger. Usually when big companies merge there is a good reason, and the top execs of the junior company get some top positions in the senior company.

In Glorantha a reason for merging is better access to magic - bigger congregation, larger temple. Plus you have more warriors to drive off the next broo incursion. 

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15 hours ago, Joerg said:

The dispersal of the Telmori tribe would open up old tribal territory of the Torkani, and open up the northern borders of the Aranwyth and Kheldon tribes ...

And the Lorthing clan of the Culbrea tribe settled in the Moaning Valley and in Jarolar Keep.

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On 3/12/2021 at 1:19 PM, soltakss said:

In theory, Orlanthi clans can switch between tribes with no problem.

In practice, it's a bit more complex than that.

Individuals might have a stronger tie to their Clan than their Tribe, as Clan allegiances don't change as often as Tribal allegiances.

Also, you belong to your Tribe through your Clan, whereas you belong to your Clan on a personal basis.

 

Of course a lot of people change clan when they get married. If they stay within the same Tribe (as I would suppose often happens) this means a lot of people have strong interclan and tribal feelings as well!

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On 3/12/2021 at 4:08 AM, Joerg said:

How important is tribal identity compared to clan identity? 

I'd say it depends on the people. Those who serve as thanes on the tribal militia or tribe king's personal retinue are bound to have stronger tribal identity IMHO. The same goes for people who belong to cults or guilds or occupations that operate more at a tribal level than a clan level (most scribes, merchants, or mercenaries, and cults like Babeester Gor/Maran Gor/etc). Other people, like simple farmers and fishermen, might have a stronger clan identity, and, in some cases (like the Dinacoli in the 1610s), might voice their disagreement with the tribe, kinda like 2010s British people with the European Union. The people of Harlan County in the TV series Justified will think of themselves as belonging to a bloodline first, county second, Kentucky state third, probably. But an FBI agent or US Army soldier from X-Files or Homeland or whatever would probably feel like an American first?

 

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The Coming Storm shows how Maboder exiles who escaped enslavement by Jomes Wulf became a new Red Cow bloodline in recent history. Now, with the Lunar Empire's protection for the veterans turned stead-holders gone, what is going to happen in Wulfsland? Will the Maboder clans reform from those bloodlines, swelled with former Maboder slaves of the Lunars? Will they re-found the Maboder tribe, or will they join the Cinsina?

It frankly could go either way in anybody's given campaign. My own take after thinking about it for 30 seconds would be that:

  1. Jomes Wulf will remind everybody that he can keep the Telmori in check when nobody else can. The Telmori are reckless and savage, they were allied with the equally reckless Kallyr Starbrow. They need to have someone keeping an eye on them.
  2. Wulfsland may be populated with Lunars, but a lot of them just want to have a simple life as retired soldiers turned land-owners. They're not going to make waves if nobody comes looking for trouble... if somebody does, remind them that they're all bad-ass veteran soldiers. Worst case, they can negotiate freeing the Maboder thralls they have in tow.
  3. The leftover Maboder people might make moves toward Wulfsland, but many people might come down on them, reminding them that (1) most people have bigger problems than Wulfsland and (2) these adopted Maboder people gave oaths in return for adoption. A few Maboder may not listen and still cause trouble, which will surely give a few chieftains a headache.

 

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Did Jomes Wulf or the Provincial Government inherit the Maboder tribal manors in Jonstown or Boldhome? Who owns them now?

I can't remember if Wulfsland is an official tribal member of the Jonstown confederation and/or the Sartar Kingdom? If so, then yeah. Either that, or they have their own tribal manors and the old Maboder ones when to somebody else (maybe the Dinacoli... they're big and rich, and may want more buildings than the other tribes because they're show-offs).

 

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What happens to an entity that agreed to become the wyter of a community when that community falls apart? Is the entity killed for good?

I think that it sometimes gets destroyed if the community was itself destroyed in a violent way. For example, the Telmori might have set it on fire, or drowned it, or killed is animal host, or broken its item, or whatever. Other times, especially for "portable" wyters (like the Black Spear), survivors of the community run away with it... it loses some of its power, and becomes a weaker wyter of a smaller community. Other times, it's the reverse, and a smaller wyter becomes a bigger wyter... for instance, the warband wyter of a tribal militia might become the wyter of a new clan when an entire tribe gets massacred and the survivors gather around somebody who can lead them to safety.

Edited by lordabdul
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