god-dess leading inovation

[French Desperate WindChild]

I don't say progress, because there is a connotation then a potential debate (is this change a progres blablabla...) which is not the purpose of my question 🙂

Change has a lot of view:

chaos changes (with destruction / corruption)

disorder changes (with violence), like Eurmal, Umath, etc...

life / growth changes

maybe others...

I m focused on those who think, analyze, plan then conclude they can do something differently than previously

 

My location is Sartar and Holy country

I see Orlanthi as very conservative on some way. I don't consider (I may be wrong, no issue, if you tell me ) as Lhankor Mhy more a god of "keep" the knowledge / tradition than imagine new "options".

 

I see some candidates but not sure :

Larnste ? but Larnste changes because he changes in all case, not sure change is "aware", "logic", "thoughtful"

Orlanth ? but i see Orlanth changing thing with his mind only as a consequence of a previous change made by passion, fixing things he broke

Belintar, ? Sartar ?

Someone else ?, maybe a unknown cult or subcult ?

[Sir_Godspeed]

Sartar appears to have done so. His change appears to have been based on some previous forms, iirc, but he did innovate, and in a seemingly methodic, planned manner. He was both Orlanth-initiated and associated with Issaries, I think? 

Orlanth did innovate mythicall, by forming the Storm Tribe, although steered in the direction by Ernalda. 

Obviously the draconic Orlanthi innovated, even if the project went south.

Alakoring innovated in the sense of removing the independence of the priesthood and putting them under the authority of the tribal king (Rex). 

Issaries might be a good shout. Traders and middlemen are often good irl at finding the intersections in systems and exploit them. 

 

[scott-martin]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m focused on those who think, analyze, plan then conclude they can do something differently than previously

As @Sir_Godspeed notes, consider Issaries. The haggler's mindset lends itself to seeing the world not so much in terms of "right" and "wrong" but in terms of relative "opportunity" and "challenge." Every system can be made more efficient working from the inputs (inventory to sell, supply chain, identifiable demand) to discover optimal pricing and make the trade happen. And then you move on to the next trade, carrying the transactional profit with you.

Profit is portable. It's what you extract from the status quo that wasn't there before. The difference between it and the Tap is that you're theoretically adding value to the system, making it better than it was when you found it. Creating wealth. Introducing a lonely donkey to a mare and letting nature extend your carriage train.

And then there's the spell trading network, which bends cult restrictions as long as you can find customers more greedy for exotic magic than they're afraid of taboo. The network is the future.

 

[Nick Brooke]

Orlanth was the Storm God who worked with strangers and made them his friends. He tried previously unheard-of things, and when they worked they became part of the way the Storm Tribe did things from then on. He is a poor example of divine conservatism. But his followers are backward hicks from the boondocks. That's the problem.

[Leingod]

I read once somewhere a myth that describes Orlanth as the only son of Umath who learned how to change things in ways other than just breaking them (though he still did plenty of that too, of course). I'm also put in mind of how King of Dragon Pass has you doing Sartar's deeds and phrases them as (IIRC) taking old things and making new things out of them. That is, transformative change, where you're not making something whole-cloth but turning something into something else. This is the essential power of Larnste which Orlanth inherited from his grandfather, and which the Larnstings like Sartar often display.

When the old ways didn't work, Orlanth went out and found something new to supplement or replace them. His mortal followers in Sartar trend towards the conservative, because a.) they were formed from Heortlings who didn't accept the novelty of Belintar the Stranger, and b.) who better than the followers of Orlanth to understand the dangers of reckless change? They understand and respect both its powers and its dangers, perhaps a bit too much to properly embrace it, even if they don't admit that.

This is, perhaps, the key difference in the worship of Orlanth after his death and rebirth in the Great Winter. It is now absolutely clear to all that things have irrevocably changed, and the Old World is gone. The Third Age is over, and the Orlanthi can't cling to the way things used to be anymore, but must now fight to make sure that this change is what they call the Right Change, the one that makes the world better and fixes what is broken.

But as mentioned above, Orlanth's powers of change are ultimately transformative: He doesn't usually make new things whole-cloth, but rather tends to repurpose or transform the old. What was old is made new again, as they are rediscovered or repurposed.

[Richard S.]

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Sartar appears to have done so. His change appears to have been based on some previous forms, iirc, but he did innovate, and in a seemingly methodic, planned manner. He was both Orlanth-initiated and associated with Issaries, I think? 

I don't think he had Issaries connections, but he was a Larnsting so he was very closely connected to Movement. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, Richard S. said:

but he was a Larnsting so he was very closely connected to Movement. 

google is not my friend, or I am unable to find what I search (probably both...)

 

I found few reference about Larnsting in fact everywhere I understand Larnsting are people who made big changes and .... that's all.

So what they are? humans or avatars of greater entity?

Worshipper of a cult/subcult ? "philosopher", "illuminate" or "mystic" ? (same word than what we know in glorantha, but maybe more an earth meaning than a gloranthan meaning?)

 

is there any description somewhere GP / RP ?

 

[AndrewTBP]

See The Guide to Glorantha p.247

…

The Larnstings are Orlanthi who can invoke Change and can master the changes created by their very presence. They do not offer sacrifices to Larnste, summon wind spirits, or use wizardry – instead, their very breath knows how to speak the words of power without instruction. Collectively, the Larnstings are a weird brotherhood of magicians who appear, disappear, and reappear throughout history. Their numbers, role, and even powers constantly change and they defy categorization or definition. Sometimes they seem to lead the Hendriki, sometimes that tribe's leaders oppose them, and sometimes they disappear entirely. 

…

[French Desperate WindChild]

31 minutes ago, AndrewTBP said:

See The Guide to Glorantha p.247

…

The Larnstings are Orlanthi who can invoke Change and can master the changes created by their very presence. They do not offer sacrifices to Larnste, summon wind spirits, or use wizardry – instead, their very breath knows how to speak the words of power without instruction. Collectively, the Larnstings are a weird brotherhood of magicians who appear, disappear, and reappear throughout history. Their numbers, role, and even powers constantly change and they defy categorization or definition. Sometimes they seem to lead the Hendriki, sometimes that tribe's leaders oppose them, and sometimes they disappear entirely. 

…

that is what I knew, but would like more precise data. Somewhere it is an utopian request. As they are "change", they cannot be specified, any description would be obsolete two days later. But I  always hope to know a little bit more 🙂

 

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

hat is what I knew, but would like more precise data. Somewhere it is an utopian request. As they are "change", they cannot be specified, any description would be obsolete two days later. But I  always hope to know a little bit more 🙂

There is no more precise data.

The best examples of Larnstings are probably Hendrik and Sartar.  They embody the Movement Rune in ways that allow them to change or transform things (e.g. Sartar transforming enemies into termites that the woodpeckers could eat). 

In RQG terms this may mean they have the Movement Rune at 100% (or close to it).  And they can likely use the Movement Rune to make some amount of permanent change.  Whether that is embodied in a Rune spell, or is simply a power, we do not know at this point.  There have not been Larnstings since around the time that Belintar arrived.  Perhaps with Belintar gone, some will reappear.

[EricW]

Eurmal is the Orlanthi god of change. He brought death into the world, kicked off the entire second age by splitting someone’s tongue, innumerable other outrages and affronts to order. It’s just when it all gets too crazy and out of control Orlanth reminds his bondsman he promised not to break the world, and promised to help clean up the mess.

Edited March 18, 2021 by EricW

[French Desperate WindChild]

57 minutes ago, EricW said:

Eurmal is the Orlanthi god of change.

Eurmal is one of them, of course. But Eurmal does not fit with my not yet named god : i m looking for someone logic, who try something because he wants to find / create a new referential of knowledge, not someone who try something because it is / may be funny / hilarious / dangerous / exciting / chocking.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

There have not been Larnstings since around the time that Belintar arrived.  Perhaps with Belintar gone, some will reappear.

mmmm and do you think that you are born larnsting, or you become larnsting after... something ?

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

There is no more precise data.

finaly google seems my friend, unfortunatly !

 

[jajagappa]

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

finaly google seems my friend, unfortunatly !

The main source of the Larnstings is History of the Heortling People. 

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

So what they are? humans or avatars of greater entity?

They are humans.  They also embody or represent Larnste, the original god of Movement/Change.  Probably not coincidental that Heortland is where Larnste tried to stamp out Chaos and was bitten, leaving the Footprint and the Foulblood Forest behind.  Larnste limped away bleeding, so perhaps his blood lingers and occasionally provides the ability for humans to invoke those powers. 

On 3/17/2021 at 6:17 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m focused on those who think, analyze, plan then conclude they can do something differently than previously

Orlanth (remember he is the one who met the Strange Gods, created a new tribe beyond his own, went on the Lightbringer's Quest to restore the world, etc.)

Sartar on a local level where he raised cities, built roads, forged a new kingdom, etc.

Belintar did new things for awhile, but he is gone now.

Argrath is the new incarnation of this capability, so perhaps you are just too early and need to wait until Argrath becomes a god...

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

Eurmal is the Orlanthi god of change. He brought death into the world, kicked off the entire second age by splitting someone’s tongue, innumerable other outrages and affronts to order. It’s just when it all gets too crazy and out of control Orlanth reminds his bondsman he promised not to break the world, and promised to help clean up the mess.

Eurmal is a god of disorder, not change. He didn't create new things (though he did discover death), he just broke things. It can be argued that that's a form of change, but only a limited form, as Movement is change for the better as well as for the worse, or change for neither. Orlanth is the Orlanthi god of change, not Eurmal.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Keep in mind that Orlanth himself is called "The Larnsting", as Larnste is his maternal grandfather. Larnste manifests in Orlanth through the "Twisting Wind" an aspect of wind/change/movement that could not be bound by Lokamaydon, iirc.

[Leingod]

My own thoughts on the matter are that the Larnstings are actually a counterpart to the Stormwalkers of Old Wind Temple. They're both these weird, enigmatic mystics with great and unusual powers who only occasionally come down into the world to use them, and the difference between them seems to mirror the split between the cult of Orlanth Thunderous and Orlanth Adventurous.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I like the choice of Larnste - Orlanth  (didn't expect this answer when I asked) and your thoughts (twisting, stormwalkers, etc..) are very interesting.

that's said, that lead me to some other questions

what colour could be the crystalized blood of Larnste ?

and exploring all the resources I found (here, daliath, the old guide I have, wiki, etc...) I m a little lost about the larnste's footprint :

 

how could react stone beast meeting adventurers? Are they like other beasts (attitude, flee or attack depending on the type of the beast) ?  Are they chaos hunter/guardian and don't care adventurers? are they gardian of their land, and any stranger (chaos, adventurers, ...) must be rejected ?

 

And this... syphon, I read it leads to the void... but what is the void ? outside glorantha ? or like magasta's pool somewhere underworld (if i m not wrong) ?

 

 

 

[Leingod]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

how could react stone beast meeting adventurers? Are they like other beasts (attitude, flee or attack depending on the type of the beast) ?  Are they chaos hunter/guardian and don't care adventurers? are they gardian of their land, and any stranger (chaos, adventurers, ...) must be rejected ?

 

And this... syphon, I read it leads to the void... but what is the void ? outside glorantha ? or like magasta's pool somewhere underworld (if i m not wrong) ?

Dunno about the stone beasts, but they're noted as moving incredibly slowly, so even if they're hostile to adventurers they probably aren't that hard to avoid if you don't set up camp.

The lack of capitalization in "void" probably just means that the Syphon flows into a void, as in a dark hole that goes super deep. Page 258 of the Guide says it leads into the Underworld. Perhaps it even connects to the Styx?

Edited March 18, 2021 by Leingod

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what colour could be the crystalized blood of Larnste ?

Larnste is a blue-skinned deity, so quite possible his blood is the same.  Or perhaps the blood was every-changing from one color to another, or perhaps it is of all colors like a rainbow.

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

how could react stone beast meeting adventurers? Are they like other beasts (attitude, flee or attack depending on the type of the beast) ?  Are they chaos hunter/guardian and don't care adventurers? are they gardian of their land, and any stranger (chaos, adventurers, ...) must be rejected ?

My interpretation is that they are guardians of the Stone Wood and guardians/defenders against Chaos.  They do not leave their Stone Forest, but they have powers that consistently keep Chaos at bay (e.g. their touch starts "ordering" Chaos, the ash of the land withers gorp or transmutes/hardens Chaos into stone, etc.).  If adventurers have any Chaos taint, then they will be similarly affected by the powers of the Stone Forest.  Otherwise, they will likely ignore adventurers. 

1 hour ago, Leingod said:

but they're noted as moving incredibly slowly

Personally, I think everything and everyone that enters or is within the Stone Woods moves incredibly slowly, including adventurers.  They don't notice the effect while within (and the Stone creatures do not seem slow while within), but if they finally manage to leave, weeks may have passed while they only noticed a few hours.

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

And this... syphon, I read it leads to the void... but what is the void ? outside glorantha ? or like magasta's pool somewhere underworld (if i m not wrong) ?

It plunges down into the Underworld into the River Styx.  And there are probably "demon" fish that can swim up its great waterfall to emerge at the Toe Hole.  But you probably don't want to go down the hole as there are likely places along the way that do lead to the Void.

[AndrewTBP]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Personally, I think everything and everyone that enters or is within the Stone Woods moves incredibly slowly, including adventurers.  They don't notice the effect while within (and the Stone creatures do not seem slow while within), but if they finally manage to leave, weeks may have passed while they only noticed a few hours.

I am so stealing this for my 13th Age Glorantha game. 

[Darius West]

On 3/17/2021 at 9:17 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I see some candidates but not sure :

Larnste ? but Larnste changes because he changes in all case, not sure change is "aware", "logic", "thoughtful"

Orlanth ? but i see Orlanth changing thing with his mind only as a consequence of a previous change made by passion, fixing things he broke

Belintar, ? Sartar ?

Someone else ?, maybe a unknown cult or subcult ?

Orlanthi are less "change" than "movement".  The rune covers both.  Mastakos, the current holder of the Mobility/Change rune actually has Meld Form and Proteus abilities in the forthcoming RQ:Gods of Glorantha.  Sartar and the other Larnstings were mystics of Change who would use transformation to turn things into other things, such as Brangbane's clan of obnoxious Orlanthi into Ghouls, and Tribes into a Nation.