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Attack and Bite in the same round?


Blacktoad

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3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I didn't understand this statement about "no parry or dodge" since, AFAICT, you always get parry and dodge (at -20% cumulative) in RQG? I don't know RQ3 but it looks like it might have been Scotty still playing with these old rules:

Yes. This confused me as well. That’s definitely out of the RQ3 rules, not RQG. Scotty made a comment elsewhere about giving the baboon a 2-handed spear so as to allow them a parry as well. Was scratching my head a bit & wondering what I was missing, but you’re right that’s 100% RQ3 rules. 


Grateful for him pointing out the SR mistake of the baboon, hadn’t thought to check out the claw SR as well, now they play how they were supposed to. But yes, I wouldn’t allow 2 claw attacks. Spear followed by claw/bite, yes definitely as per the combat notes. Claw and bite probably not, unless “victim” is surprised.
 

 

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12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Oh good investigating! So the average Baboon has SR (1+2+2)=5 (instead of 6) with a short spear? And unarmed attacks are (1+2+4)=7 (instead of 8 ) ?

Sorry missed the “?” there.

Yes, that’s it. 
 

Your average Baboon wielding a 1-handed short spear should be calculated from the following:

  • Dex SR 1
  • Size SR 2
  • 1-handed short spear SR2 
  • Claw/Bite SR4 (see unarmed attacks) 

So short-handed spear attacks on SR 5. Claw/bite on SR 7.

That means in practice, short-handed Spear attack on SR7, followed by Claw/bite on SR12. 
 

 

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12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Personally I wouldn't, by default, allow attacking twice per round with both hands, for the same reason I wouldn't allow humans to roll for punch twice per round because they have two arms. You need a >100% skill in unarmed combat and then you can split the attack.

Yes agree. That’s a very good way to rationalise things like claw attacks in RQ. 100% with you there - Unless the special combat notes say other wise that will be my guidance in future. 
 

The more I’ve thought about it the more problematic the ruling on p8 of the Gloranthan Bestiary is under “weapons”. Even with guidance of the individual creature combat notes (some of which are problematically missing), it still plays funny with the baboon. I’m pretty sure the baboon was never intended to have simultaneous bite and claw attacks as a “standard” mode of attack? At least in past editions that was not the case, and i see no reason in RQG to adjust that assumption. 
Certainly a Gm can rule other wise in accordance with the narrative, but as standard mode I would think not. The base line needs to be clear and the rule on p8 of the bestiary muddies the water. 

@Scotty @Jason D I would advise removing that rule completely, and instead rely on the individual combat notes to explain simultaneous attacks. Take the Hydra for example, lots of heads, but a total blank with guidance on how to use them. Not everyone is coming to this game with the knowledge and experience of the game writers. Some people may not have even heard of a hydra before. It would make more sense to have included the original Hydra combat notes rather then relying on a general rule that doesn’t fit with all of the creatures in the bestiary.

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8 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

The more I’ve thought about it the more problematic the ruling on p8 of the Gloranthan Bestiary is under “weapons”.

For reference, this is the following text:

Many creatures can attack more than once in a round: if so, unless specified otherwise, the creature uses both attacks at once, instead of working under the guidelines for two-weapon combat shown in the Combat chapter of the RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha rulebook.

I didn't pay much attention to this bit of text personally. It says "many creatures can attack more than once in a round", which I understand as "there's a lot of dangerous critters in this book, look out for them". Then: "if so, unless specified otherwise...". The "if so" here tells me that for those creatures who do attack more than one in a round, they will do those attacks simultaneously, instead of one attack after another by adding SRs. But this is still only for those special dangerous creatures. It doesn't mean to me that it's for all creatures in the book.

So now let's hunt for any creature that is specified as being able to attack more than once in a round: Gorillas, Gobblers, Sea Trolls, some Dragonsnails, Huan To, Jack'O Bears, Scorpion Men, Walktapi, and so on (I stopped searching after the Chaos Creatures chapter).

The "unless specified otherwise" refers to things like Sea Trolls, Huan To, and Jack'O Bears: they don't do simultaneous attacks as per the general rule, they specifically use 3SR intervals for at least some of their attacks.

So I think that rule on p8 is perfectly fine.

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3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

On the other hand, I don't know why some creature entries like the Wyrm feel the need to specify that "it can attack once per round".

That ones comes straight out of RQ3. RQ3. It’s mentioned in case you presume you can use both of its listed attacks in a melee round. I believe the general rule in RQG (RQ2, & RQ3) is that you can make two attacks, if you have two weapons or forms of attacks, and enough SR’s available. 
 

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Many creatures can attack more than once in a round: if so, unless specified otherwise, the creature uses both attacks at once, instead of working under the guidelines for two-weapon combat shown in the Combat chapter of the RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha rulebook

Hmm...that’s really odd. I completely miss interpreted that - I was looking for a solution to explain how to adjudicate attacks that share the same SR. To my mind, whilst searching for a solution, it was specifying attacks which are listed sharing the same SR, as those are the ones that to me need some guidance. For example some will occur simultaneously, whilst some will be a choice to choose between. But you’re right too point it out, it doesn’t say that at all - Very odd - note to self, stay away from RuneQuest rule books late at night!🤪

Regardless of my misinterpretation, there seem to be some creatures like the Maidstone Archer that have 2 forms of attack available, and no combat note guidance, so are we to presume that they attack simultaneously with their two swords? If so which SR do they use? Right hand sr 1, or left hand sr 6? Maybe this is another case of missing combat notes and their two attacks are supposed to happen on the respective SR’s? There was nothing in RQ3 (their first appearance I think) about simultaneous attacks.
look at the Minotaur, it has 2 attacks, and no mention of exceptions, so are we to presume they happen simultaneously?   I still feel that as general rule it doesn’t sit well at all. Why is it there? 
 

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

The "unless specified otherwise" refers to things like Sea Trolls, Huan To, and Jack'O Bears: they don't do simultaneous attacks as per the general rule, they specifically use 3SR intervals for at least some of their attacks.

That’s interesting - they’ve carried over the 3sr interval from RQ3, where by that was when you could make a second attack with a second weapon if you had one. In RQ2/RQG the method is to add the sr of the second attack to the first. I wonder whether that was deliberate or simply copied over and slipped through the editing process? 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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9 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

look at the Minotaur, it has 2 attacks, and no mention of exceptions, so are we to presume they happen simultaneously?   I still feel that as general rule it doesn’t sit well at all. Why is it there? 

I’ve found the combat notes from RQ3, which shares the same 2 attacks as the Minotaur in RQG:

”A Minotaur can use either a head butt or a hand-held weapon in a given round. It could use both only as per normal two-weapon use, thereby depriving itself of the ability to parry that round” - RQ3 

The note about the parry is really only relevant to how RQ3 worked. If you made two attacks you lost the ability to parry in that game, that’s not applicable in RQG.

But what’s described there is not simultaneous attacks, yet we have that general rule on p8. It’s too problematic IMO and doesn’t make sense. I couldn’t imagine a Minotaur simultaneously attacking with a hand held weapon and head butt on the same SR. Perhaps my first hunch was right, and it’s meant to refer to attacks that are listed as already sharing the same SR? 
 

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I’m also noticing a lot copy over from RQ3 in the RQG bestiary which reference parry, or the loss of parry due to making two attacks. Those bits aren’t relevant to how parry works in RQG now. Sure you can make exceptions, like the giant sweeping attack, but some of those like the Huan to are obviously referencing RQ3 rules, and are not relevant to RQG. 
 

Also the reference to attacks being 3sr apart was a RQ3 convention. Doesn’t break the game, but I wonder if it was intentional using that, instead of the RQG approach for the second attack? 

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35 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

there seem to be some creatures like the Maidstone Archer that have 2 forms of attack available, and no combat note guidance

Ah yes -- that one also seems to be missing a combat note about being able to attack twice every round, once with each arm (so on SRs 1 and 6). It really feels like that's how it's supposed to played IMHO. Add it to the Missing Combat Notes thread! 🙂

37 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

look at the Minotaur, it has 2 attacks, and no mention of exceptions, so are we to presume they happen simultaneously?   I still feel that as general rule it doesn’t sit well at all. Why is it there? 

I don't know what the problem is with the Minotaur? It can attack with a melee weapon (Great Axe) or with a natural weapon (Head Butt). Again, that's similar to baboons with their spear and bite, or humans with their sword and kick. I think you just go with the normal rules there, no?

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13 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Sure you can make exceptions, like the giant sweeping attack, but some of those like the Huan to are obviously referencing RQ3 rules, and are not relevant to RQG. 

Yeah the giant's special attack is really a special move -- and it's a single attack anyway so I don't know if it qualifies as an RQ3 holdout.

The Huan-To (and the couple other monsters I've found with this "3 SR apart" special rule) is kinda weird... If I understand this correctly, Biting by itself would be done on SR7 (as per the table), Biting after a sword attack would also be SR7 (sword's SR4 + 3), and Biting after a claw attack would be SR10 (claw's SR7 + 3) ?  Another instance of "RQG has many special cases and special rules".

Edited by lordabdul
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5 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I don't know what the problem is with the Minotaur? It can attack with a melee weapon (Great Axe) or with a natural weapon (Head Butt). Again, that's similar to baboons with their spear and bite, or humans with their sword and kick. I think you just go with the normal rules there, no?

I might well be befuddled as it’s late now, but I was thinking if there is no mention in the notes as to how to use the second attack, that they should therefore follow the rule on p8 and happen simultaneously? 

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24 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

The Huan-To (and the couple other monsters I've found with this "3 SR apart" special rule) is kinda weird... If I understand this correctly, Biting by itself would be done on SR7 (as per the table), Biting after a sword attack would also be SR7 (sword's SR4 + 3), and Biting after a claw attack would be SR10 (claw's SR7 + 3) ?

Yes it curiously seems to also fit with the RQ3 10 melee round

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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Just now, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I might well be befuddled as it’s late now, but I was thinking if there is no mention in the notes as to how to use the second attack, that they should therefore follow the rule on p8 and happen simultaneously? 

Yes it might be late 🙂 As per my original comment: the "multiple attacks happen simultaneously" is only, I think, for creatures that are already specified as having multiple attacks per round. So the way I understand it:

  1. No combat notes: the creature follows the usual rules.
  2. Combat note about having multiple attacks per round: these multiple attacks are simultaneous (the "if so..." of the rule p8).
  3. Combat note about having multiple attacks per round but with a specific rule for how to play those attacks: just follow the combat note (the "unless specified otherwise" of the rule p8).
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12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yes it might be late 🙂 As per my original comment: the "multiple attacks happen simultaneously" is only, I think, for creatures that are already specified as having multiple attacks per round. So the way I understand it:

  1. No combat notes: the creature follows the usual rules.
  2. Combat note about having multiple attacks per round: these multiple attacks are simultaneous (the "if so..." of the rule p8).
  3. Combat note about having multiple attacks per round but with a specific rule for how to play those attacks: just follow the combat note (the "unless specified otherwise" of the rule p8).

I’m going to bed 🤪

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16 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah the giant's special attack is really a special move -- and it's a single attack anyway so I don't know if it qualifies as an RQ3 holdout.

The Huan-To (and the couple other monsters I've found with this "3 SR apart" special rule) is kinda weird... If I understand this correctly, Biting by itself would be done on SR7 (as per the table), Biting after a sword attack would also be SR7 (sword's SR4 + 3), and Biting after a claw attack would be SR10 (claw's SR7 + 3) ?  Another instance of "RQG has many special cases and special rules".

Have to give the designers the benefit of the doubt here. There are elements like the 3sr intervals that have crossed over from RQ3, but I’ve yet to find any example where RQ3 rule cross over is problematic. There’s no overt reference to parry restriction that could feel left over from RQ3. The borrowing of the 3sr  must be intentional in RQG. Maybe alarm bells were ringing because of previous rules clash’s from older editions in the core book? 

There are a few what I’d consider to be missing combat notes ( not too many) which I’ll add to the Q&A thread. Scotty rightly pointed out that I would be breaching copyright with my other thread on missing combat notes, and perhaps they may clash with the designers intensions.

That said presentation of the rules could be a bit clearer - for example why not have notes about simultaneous attacks included in the individual creatures combat notes? There’s a relatively small number of creatures that that rule refers to. It’d save a lot of confusion, and referencing back and forth. The less rules I need to remember the better. Have it all by the creature for easy reference.

Also the general rule about 2-weapon attacks that is the fallback rule in the book, should be emphasised better at the front of the book. It’s there but tagged on to the end of another rule. I’d make it more obvious, give it its own bullet point.

 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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3 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Maybe alarm bells were ringing because of previous rules clash’s from older editions in the core book? 

Yeah I think your alarm bells are calibrated ok and it was just a false positive. There is a few precedents for old editions' text making it into the new one.

3 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

That said presentation of the rules could be a bit clearer - for example why not have notes about simultaneous attacks included in the individual creatures combat notes? There’s a relatively small number of creatures that that rule refers to. It’d save a lot of confusion, and referencing back and forth. The less rules I need to remember the better. Have it all by the creature for easy reference.

Yeah that's what I was thinking when I was checking the first half of the book. It would have been simpler to state special attack abilities in each creature. It doesn't seem to me like it would add much text to the book because the number of entries that fall under the general rule p8 seem pretty small.

 

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On 3/22/2021 at 7:08 PM, lordabdul said:

Yeah that's what I was thinking when I was checking the first half of the book. It would have been simpler to state special attack abilities in each creature. It doesn't seem to me like it would add much text to the book because the number of entries that fall under the general rule p8 seem pretty small.

 

Yep agree 100% 

On a side note, I like how they’ve left a couple free strike ranks after the Crimson Bat has finished its attacks, gives a chance to teach that Mofo a lesson! 🤣

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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  • 2 weeks later...
9 hours ago, Runeblade said:

What about spirit combat and physical attack at the same time? I see several spirits in The Smoking Ruin have a physical attack also. Does this mean they engage in both each round freely? I looked this up, couldn’t find any (but I am sure it is mentioned?). I seem to remember it was possible. With a penalty?

See RuneQuest Rules Q&A

 

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