While We're Talking About Passions, Passion Awards in Smoking Ruin

[claycle]

In the Smoking Ruin, it is possible for the players to gain Loyalty with some notable characters. These awards are on page 109 of the scenario book.

As these are probably new Passions, and according to RAW (pg 237):

The starting value must be agreed upon by both player and gamemaster, but a new Passion should generally start at least at 60%.

And in the Smoking Ruin (pg 109), the first Loyalty award listed is +30% Loyalty (Personage).

Mull that over for a bit while I explain how we see Passions at the table.

In our understanding, new Passions start at 60, because otherwise, an unlisted Passion is just a coin toss (50/50). If I don't have Loyalty (Queen Leika), then the implied Loyalty is not ZERO but 50 - I have a 50/50 chance of working for or against Leika's interests.

Passions below 50, therefore, represent sort of an anti-Passion, or negative animus. If I have Loyalty (Queen Leika) 40, I have less Loyalty than the average Joe Colymar towards her. I am, in effect, Disloyal, as I am more likely to working against my Loyalty than towards it.

Which brings me back to the +30% Loyalty (Personage) award in The Smoking Ruin (pg 109).

Taking the RAW at their face value (that notable Passions something begin at 60 because otherwise it's a coin-toss), this means the effect becomes Loyalty (Personage) 90 (or 80 if you want to base from 50). That's a whopping amount of Loyalty to generate suddenly, is it not?

On the other hand, if we base the Loyalty from 0, the award becomes Loyalty (Personage) 30, which implies a distinct disinclination to be Loyal to this person, as you are less likely to act in a Loyal manner than a person who neither especially for or against said Personage (50/50 coin toss).

Or is it another thing altogether? Are Passions a two-way street?

Is it that, yes, Loyalty (Personage) 90 (or 80) is the right answer because this represents not only the character's outgoing Loyalty, but the reciprocal Loyalty of the Personage (who, if the players received this reward, would indeed be greatly indebted to the characters)?

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by claycle

[Brootse]

18 minutes ago, claycle said:

In the Smoking Ruin, it is possible for the players to gain Loyalty with some notable characters. These awards are on page 109 of the scenario book.

As these are probably new Passions, and according to RAW (pg 237):

The starting value must be agreed upon by both player and gamemaster, but a new Passion should generally start at least at 60%.

And in the Smoking Ruin (pg 109), the first Loyalty award listed is +30% Loyalty (Personage).

Mull that over for a bit while I explain how we see Passions at the table.

In our understanding, new Passions start at 60, because otherwise, an unlisted Passion is just a coin toss (50/50). If I don't have Loyalty (Queen Leika), then the implied Loyalty is not ZERO but 50 - I have a 50/50 chance of working for or against Leika's interests.

Passions below 50, therefore, represent sort of an anti-Passion, or negative animus. If I have Loyalty (Queen Leika) 40, I have less Loyalty than the average Joe Colymar towards her. I am, in effect, Disloyal, as I am more likely to working against my Loyalty than towards it.

Which brings me back to the +30% Loyalty (Personage) award in The Smoking Ruin (pg 109).

Taking the RAW at their face value (that notable Passions something begin at 60 because otherwise it's a coin-toss), this means the effect becomes Loyalty (Personage) 90 (or 80 if you want to base from 50). That's a whopping amount of Loyalty to generate suddenly, is it not?

On the other hand, if we base the Loyalty from 0, the award becomes Loyalty (Personage) 30, which implies a distinct disinclination to be Loyal to this person, as you are less likely to act in a Loyal manner than a person who neither especially for or against said Personage (50/50 coin toss).

Or is it another thing altogether? Are Passions a two-way street?

Is it that, yes, Loyalty (Personage) 90 (or 80) is the right answer because this represents not only the character's outgoing Loyalty, but the reciprocal Loyalty of the Personage (who, if the players received this reward, would indeed be greatly indebted to the characters)?

 

90 is the right answer, and yes, it's quite a lot. And loyalty is a two way street, but the target of your loyalty is your lord.

[French Desperate WindChild]

33 minutes ago, claycle said:

Or is it another thing altogether? Are Passions a two-way street?

Is it that, yes, Loyalty (Personage) 90 (or 80) is the right answer because this represents not only the character's outgoing Loyalty, but the reciprocal Loyalty of the Personage (who, if the players received this reward, would indeed be greatly indebted to the characters)?

I use 80 ( +10 from nothing is 60 by raw, so +30 from nothing = 80)

and yes, that is not what I prefer, but you are right that is a two-way street. Daraval has a big "debt" to the characters. If pc want something (something reasonable)  roll vs 80 and Daraval would accept (of course, add role play, etc...)

[Austin]

I understand 0% to be the default, "I don't have an opinion" point. However, 50% does make some sense, because in terms of mechanical adjustments it'd take forever to drop a starting Passion of 60% to zero.

I know Passions can and probably should fluctuate more freely based upon GM advice and the roleplay of the players. However, there's no rules or advice for this at the moment published.

Relevant:

[Brootse]

18 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I use 80 ( +10 from nothing is 60 by raw, so +30 from nothing = 80)

and yes, that is not what I prefer, but you are right that is a two-way street. Daraval has a big "debt" to the characters. If pc want something (something reasonable)  roll vs 80 and Daraval would accept (of course, add role play, etc...)

I've understood that Passions start from 60, and if you get some added, it gets added to the 60. Where does it state otherwise? I must have missed it.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 minutes ago, Brootse said:

I've understood that Passions start from 60, and if you get some added, it gets added to the 60. Where does it state otherwise? I must have missed it.

I extends the family history rule (p29) :

Quote

f the event indicates that your adventurer gains a Passion (Love, Hate, Loyalty, Fear, Devotion, Honor, etc.) that Passion starts at 60%, unless indicated otherwise. If your adventurer already has the Passion, increase it by +10%, unless indicated otherwise.

 

[Brootse]

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I extends the family history rule (p29) :

 

Ah, I see.

[Lordabdul]

On 3/23/2021 at 1:52 PM, claycle said:

In our understanding, new Passions start at 60, because otherwise, an unlisted Passion is just a coin toss (50/50). If I don't have Loyalty (Queen Leika), then the implied Loyalty is not ZERO but 50 - I have a 50/50 chance of working for or against Leika's interests.

My understanding is that Passions start at zero. The thing about starting new Passions at 60% is mainly for the Family History and (more generally speaking) for character creation: you have Love (Family) or Loyalty (Tribe) at 60% because you literally spent most of your life loving or being part of this or that group. And you get Hate (Lunar Empire) at 60% when your grandpa got killed by their sorcerers because you literally heard that story (along with witnessing all the casual bigotry your family exhibits as a result) most of your life too. So I wouldn't expect a 2 weeks adventure to similarly propel you to an equally strong Passion.

RQG p236/237 mentions that a new Passion's starting value should be discussed between the GM and player. The 60% in a recommendation (not a rule), and personally I would only use that value for special occasions such as taking on a new title or post, pleading allegiance to a new leader, being adopted in a clan or joining a community (such as a warband), etc.

 

Quote

Passions below 50, therefore, represent sort of an anti-Passion, or negative animus. If I have Loyalty (Queen Leika) 40, I have less Loyalty than the average Joe Colymar towards her. I am, in effect, Disloyal, as I am more likely to working against my Loyalty than towards it.

Depends how you play it I guess (YRQWV and all that) but that's not my interpretation.

1. I see Passion rolls as an "actionable" thing. That is: you roll to see if you are motivated by your Loyalty, or if you can invoke your Loyalty. If you succeed the roll, it happens. If you fail, it doesn't happen -- which is different from the opposite happening!
   1. For instance, if you roll to repair a broken sword and you succeed, you fixed the weapon. If you fail, you didn't make it worse... you just didn't fix it, or not well, or it took way longer. It gets worse only on a Fumble -- a Fumble is generally the only type of roll result where something opposite to the player's wishes happen. That's important to keep in mind.
   2. So rolling for a Passion determines whether you succeed in the reason you rolled for, simple as that. A failed motivation roll just means that Leika's interests don't matter to you (not that you will suddenly actively act against Leika!), and a failed invocation roll means Leika won't lift much of a finger to help you (not that she will actively send thanes to get in your way!)
2. So basically, a 10% Loyalty doesn't mean (to me) that you're Loyal 10% of the time and disloyal 90% of the time... it just means you're loyal 10% of the time, and 90% of the time it doesn't matter, and your actions are guided by other factors.
   1. Think about the alternative: would you, as a ruler, surround yourself with thanes with Loyalty (to you) at 80%, knowing they they will be disloyal to you 20% of the time? Probably not! 🙂
   2. Even worse, consider a Hate Passion. If the "default" of everything was 50/50, does it mean everybody is being biased/bigoted/racist/sexist/etc against everybody else half the time?! That would suck big time. Although it would give the GM a lot of fun (roll 50% and roleplay that NPC being an asshole to the players!)
      1. I don't even want to think about what it means that, as a result, the opposite Passion (Love, Loyalty, etc.) would also start at 50%! Combined with the interpretation of failed rolls meaning acting against these Passions! Argh! Eternal internal turmoil! 😉

As such, to answer the original questions, IMHO:

1. If you didn't have that Loyalty Passion before, you now have it at 30%. Or higher (talk to your GM) if the interactions with the NPC warrant it. Getting it at 80% or 90% all of sudden sounds completely wrong to me, especially since Passions at 80% or more get into "mandatory rolls" territory (RQG p237).
2. It is indeed a two-way street. You roll under Loyalty (personage) to help (if you want or if the situation warrants it) with decisions impacting that person, but you also roll under it when appealing to that person for help, discounts, loans, etc. (RQG p234/235).

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by lordabdul

[Lordabdul]

12 hours ago, Crel said:

However, 50% does make some sense, because in terms of mechanical adjustments it'd take forever to drop a starting Passion of 60% to zero.

Ultimately, RQG's main advice is "use common sense, work with your GM, do what feels right". Determining and managing Passions is really more like alchemy than science, because they depend so much on situation. Only using them (augments/inspiration) is driven by rules.

So for instance, losing a 60% Passion "naturally" takes a long time -- it's about growing apart from the other person, or from your community, and realizing that you don't care so much about them years later. Maybe you lose 2D6% every year if you haven't interacted with the Passion's target or something. Just make it up. On the other hand, if you have a Loyalty to Kallyr but suddenly she betrays you, or sacrifices you because she think you're expandable, you might lose 30% or 40% in that Passion in an instant. If you realize that she was really Lunar spy in disguise and that she was the one who killed your cat, the Passion might actually retain its score but suddenly morph into a Hate (Kallyr) Passion! "I would have died for you Kallyr! But you BETRAYED ME! And now I will AVENGE MY DEAR FLUFFYBALL!"

Edited March 25, 2021 by lordabdul

[Austin]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Maybe you lose 2D6% every year if you haven't interacted with the Passion's target or something. Just make it up. On the other hand, if you have a Loyalty to Kallyr but suddenly she betrays you, or sacrifices you because she think you're expandable, you might lose 30% or 40% in that Passion in an instant.

I agree with your sentiment/suggestions here - I do think that's how they're intended to work. I just wish similar advice was included within the rulebook. 😄 A good example of what I'd want is the Reputation section. It's not meant to be all-inclusive, and various published adventures use alternate Reputation increases, for a variety of reasons. It does a good job providing guidelines, without necessarily saying "This is the rule, this is the only way Reputation changes."

[PhilHibbs]

18 hours ago, Brootse said:

I've understood that Passions start from 60, and if you get some added, it gets added to the 60. Where does it state otherwise? I must have missed it.

When you "take a new passion", it starts at 60. My understanding of that is that you "always had" that passion, everybody does, but it was at 50%. By advancing it to more than "meh, I could go either way", you add 10% and it becomes 60. So my interpretation of the +30% in TSR would be that you get the new passion at 80%. Yes, it's a big deal. Is that too high? Maybe.

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

RQG p236/237 mentions that a new Passion's starting value should be discussed between the GM and player. The 60% in a recommendation (not a rule),

Yes, it could be any amount that is modestly above 50%. 51, 55, 60, 70, whatever. 60 is just a nice round number that represents a mildly positive passion.

Edited March 25, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Brootse]

Here's the official answer:

tldr: If you get +30% to a new passion, it will end up ranging from 60% to 90%.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Brootse

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

My understanding is that Passions start at zero. The thing about starting new Passions at 60% is mainly for the Family History and (more generally speaking) for character creation: you have Love (Family) or Loyalty (Tribe) at 60% because you literally spent most of your life loving or being part of this or that group. And you get Hate (Lunar Empire) at 60% when your grandpa got killed by their sorcerers because you literally heard that story (along with witnessing all the casual bigotry your family exhibits as a result) most of your life too. So I wouldn't expect a 2 weeks adventure to similarly propel you to an equally strong Passion.

RQG p236/237 mentions that a new Passion's starting value should be discussed between the GM and player. The 60% in a recommendation (not a rule), and personally I would only use that value for special occasions such as taking on a new title or post, pleading allegiance to a new leader, being adopted in a clan or joining a community (such as a warband), etc.

 

Depends how you play it I guess (YRQWV and all that) but that's not my interpretation.

1. I see Passion rolls as an "actionable" thing. That is: you roll to see if you are motivated by your Loyalty, or if you can invoke your Loyalty. If you succeed the roll, it happens. If you fail, it doesn't happen -- which is different from the opposite happening!
   1. For instance, if you roll to repair a broken sword and you succeed, you fixed the weapon. If you fail, you didn't make it worse... you just didn't fix it, or not well, or it took way longer. It gets worse only on a Fumble -- a Fumble is generally the only type of roll result where something opposite to the player's wishes happen. That's important to keep in mind.
   2. So rolling for a Passion determines whether you succeed in the reason you rolled for, simple as that. A failed motivation roll just means that Leika's interests don't matter to you (not that you will suddenly actively act against Leika!), and a failed invocation roll means Leika won't lift much of a finger to help you (not that she will actively send thanes to get in your way!)
2. So basically, a 10% Loyalty doesn't mean (to me) that you're Loyal 10% of the time and disloyal 90% of the time... it just means you're loyal 10% of the time, and 90% of the time it doesn't matter, and your actions are guided by other factors.
   1. Think about the alternative: would you, as a ruler, surround yourself with thanes with Loyalty (to you) at 80%, knowing they they will be disloyal to you 20% of the time? Probably not! 🙂
   2. Even worse, consider a Hate Passion. If the "default" of everything was 50/50, does it mean everybody is being biased/bigoted/racist/sexist/etc against everybody else half the time?! That would suck big time. Although it would give the GM a lot of fun (roll 50% and roleplay that NPC being an asshole to the players!)
      1. I don't even want to think about what it means that, as a result, the opposite Passion (Love, Loyalty, etc.) would also start at 50%! Combined with the interpretation of failed rolls meaning acting against these Passions! Argh! Eternal internal turmoil! 😉

As such, to answer the original questions, IMHO:

1. If you didn't have that Loyalty Passion before, you now have it at 30%. Getting it at 80% or 90% all of sudden sounds completely wrong to me, especially since Passions at 80% or more get into "mandatory rolls" territory (RQG p237).
2. It is indeed a two-way street. You roll under Loyalty (personage) to help (if you want or if the situation warrants it) with decisions impacting that person, but you also roll under it when appealing to that person for help, discounts, loans, etc. (RQG p234/235).

 

Yes lordAbdul on the money here. This is how I see it. Passions take you above and beyond what you’d normally be capable of doing - Not necessarily whether you will or will not be loyal. More a case of whether you’ll be loyal with real passion, and fire in your belly!...or feel hesitant, & slightly unsure due to your personal doubts, other commitments etc (represented by failure -10%). Passions are emotive and can distort working either way.
But failure on a passion roll doesn’t mean you’re going to become the opposite of loyal and turn into an enemy.
 

As lordAbdul said fumbles are the ones to watch out for, but even then it could be emotionally crippling, but not necessarily twist you into an enemy of your clan etc.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

tldr: If you get +30% to a new passion, it will end up ranging from 60% to 90%.

If you take the passion, you don't have too.

[Shiningbrow]

On 3/25/2021 at 11:14 AM, lordabdul said:

My understanding is that Passions start at zero. The thing about starting new Passions at 60% is mainly for the Family History and (more generally speaking) for character creation: you have Love (Family) or Loyalty (Tribe) at 60% because you literally spent most of your life loving or being part of this or that group. And you get Hate (Lunar Empire) at 60% when your grandpa got killed by their sorcerers because you literally heard that story (along with witnessing all the casual bigotry your family exhibits as a result) most of your life too. So I wouldn't expect a 2 weeks adventure to similarly propel you to an equally strong Passion.

RQG p236/237 mentions that a new Passion's starting value should be discussed between the GM and player. The 60% in a recommendation (not a rule), and personally I would only use that value for special occasions such as taking on a new title or post, pleading allegiance to a new leader, being adopted in a clan or joining a community (such as a warband), etc.

 

Depends how you play it I guess (YRQWV and all that) but that's not my interpretation.

1. I see Passion rolls as an "actionable" thing. That is: you roll to see if you are motivated by your Loyalty, or if you can invoke your Loyalty. If you succeed the roll, it happens. If you fail, it doesn't happen -- which is different from the opposite happening!
   1. For instance, if you roll to repair a broken sword and you succeed, you fixed the weapon. If you fail, you didn't make it worse... you just didn't fix it, or not well, or it took way longer. It gets worse only on a Fumble -- a Fumble is generally the only type of roll result where something opposite to the player's wishes happen. That's important to keep in mind.
   2. So rolling for a Passion determines whether you succeed in the reason you rolled for, simple as that. A failed motivation roll just means that Leika's interests don't matter to you (not that you will suddenly actively act against Leika!), and a failed invocation roll means Leika won't lift much of a finger to help you (not that she will actively send thanes to get in your way!)
2. So basically, a 10% Loyalty doesn't mean (to me) that you're Loyal 10% of the time and disloyal 90% of the time... it just means you're loyal 10% of the time, and 90% of the time it doesn't matter, and your actions are guided by other factors.
   1. Think about the alternative: would you, as a ruler, surround yourself with thanes with Loyalty (to you) at 80%, knowing they they will be disloyal to you 20% of the time? Probably not! 🙂
   2. Even worse, consider a Hate Passion. If the "default" of everything was 50/50, does it mean everybody is being biased/bigoted/racist/sexist/etc against everybody else half the time?! That would suck big time. Although it would give the GM a lot of fun (roll 50% and roleplay that NPC being an asshole to the players!)
      1. I don't even want to think about what it means that, as a result, the opposite Passion (Love, Loyalty, etc.) would also start at 50%! Combined with the interpretation of failed rolls meaning acting against these Passions! Argh! Eternal internal turmoil! 😉

As such, to answer the original questions, IMHO:

1. If you didn't have that Loyalty Passion before, you now have it at 30%. Or higher (talk to your GM) if the interactions with the NPC warrant it. Getting it at 80% or 90% all of sudden sounds completely wrong to me, especially since Passions at 80% or more get into "mandatory rolls" territory (RQG p237).
2. It is indeed a two-way street. You roll under Loyalty (personage) to help (if you want or if the situation warrants it) with decisions impacting that person, but you also roll under it when appealing to that person for help, discounts, loans, etc. (RQG p234/235).

 

Regardless of the official ruling, I agree with you.

That Loyalty passion should be an indication of how willing you'd be to die for them... all else being equal. And, in reverse, how much they think they can expect you to be willing to die for them.

[Shiningbrow]

On 3/25/2021 at 11:44 AM, lordabdul said:

"I would have died for you Kallyr! But you BETRAYED ME! And now I will AVENGE MY DEAR FLUFFYBALL!"

I think there are multiple Lunar spies sent out regularly to infiltrate villages to look for people who call their cats "Fluffyball", as punishment...