How much detail does a setting need ?

[rust]

I did just read a couple of Call of Cthulhu supplements, looking for inspiration

for my own settings, and was a little surprised by the amount of details in-

cluded with these settings, usually in the Appendix: Calendars, festivals, al-

phabets and scripts, typical names and proverbs ...

And now I wonder whether I should include all those details with my own set-

tings, too.

For example, the "fictional Arabic" Merasan setting could have a conversion

of the Gregorian and the Islamic Calendar, a list of the important Islamic holi-

days, the Arab and Persian alphabet, a list of common Merasani names, and

so on and on.

However, since the setting is based on the real world, such informations are

easily found in the Wikipedia and similar sources, and I am not sure that it

really would make sense to basically copy and paste them.

So, before I suffer an extreme case of "Appendicitis" and start to write the

"Mother of all Appendices" for my setting, I would like to know your opinions:

What does really make sense or is necessary ?

Thank you.

[Thalaba]

As a GM I like detail in my settings. It helps bring them alive, and the players respond to these things in my experience. If you put all of those things into a setting published setting, though, I would probably only use a portion of the information. The dates and names of festivals seem important, because those are great backdrops for adventure and also (especially in a Cthulhu setting) they always seem to be the deadline for the PCs to prevent something. Personally, I'd like to know a little about how the festival is celebrated, too. Names are really important, too. I always prepare a list of names ahead of time and keep them handy during play. These lists also help players pick names. But that said, some settings don't need lists, because their names are pretty common (most european settings and Arabic would be two examples of this). Calenders and Alphabets I would probably not use.

I think that for some of these things - like a list of names or a calender - a URL to a decent (and hopefully stable) website would be good enough.

I usually want a published setting to provide me with the information to:

1. create player characters in the setting that the players can bring alive,

2. to create meaningful NPCs with meaningful motives,

3. to describe in as vivid a detail as I feel like using at any give moment the scenes in which were are playing (climate, ecology, architecture, social customs, etc).

4. provide intersting foes for the characters, and

5. any other interesting little things that might grab people's attention.

One things I don't want from a setting is metaplot - and judging from other internet forums, I'm not the only one.

Hope that helps.

[rust]

Thank you very much, it does help a lot.

[Atgxtg]

Generally, I prefer whatever details I can get. When working on my own campaigns I usually worry about getting the basic plot, stats for NPCs and equipment, and other "must have" stuff first. Then I add whatever details I have the time and inclination for. I can and do add lits bits of detail in if it comes to me while working on something, but I'm just as likely to not have the "must have" stuff finished and be forced to wing it.

Typically, I work from an "outline" with a page or two of story and another page or two of stats. When I type something out nicely, it ends up being about ten times the size of the original outline.

Professional products usually have much more detail, but the authors of such products don't have to come up with a new adventure each week, and have access to professional artists, proofreaders and other support.

[rust]

Thank you very much.

I have just realized that I will not be able to avoid the somewhat tricky ca-

lendar problem if I want to mention and describe the holidays and festivals

of my Merasan setting.

These days have fixed dates in the Islamic Calendar, but the Islamic Calen-

dar has a different length than our Gregorian Calendar, so these days "wan-

der" through our calendar without a fixed date there - in order to tell when

they occur, I have to use the Islamic Calendar.

Ah, well, just another can of mathematical worms ...

[Atgxtg]

You can avoid some of the mathematic problems in a fictional setting. It possible to have a fixed calendar without the worry of it falling behind.

For example, you could set up a world with a year exactly 364 days long. Then you could use a calender with exactly 52 weeks of 7 days each.

[tedopon]

Are you submitting this for publication? If not, I hope you're enjoying this project (well, I hope you're enjoying it either way, but the point remains that this is a hell of a lot of detail for something recreational imo). I've found in my own experience that at least half of minutiae that I detail never even gets used. It has definitely made me much more efficient over the years with regards to game structure, since I've learned that I don't need to get too heady with the details. On the other hand, there is a definite line that should not be crossed when budgeting resource allocation if you're wanting to share with others. I don't think anyone would be able to use my campaign notes as anything more than set pieces, since I leave a lot of the details vague unless they are absolutely necessary.

With regards to calendars, I just tell them it's the first week of March.

Edited December 10, 2009 by tedopon
EDITED FOR SPELLING ERROR

[rust]

You can avoid some of the mathematic problems in a fictional setting.

Unfortunately I managed to paint myself into a corner - my settings are fictio-

nal states of the real world, everything else is our real world in about 1920, so

changing the solar year's length would most probably destroy my historical timeline.

I think I will make the calendar a small chapter ("The Year in Merasan"), with

a short explanation, the Merasani names of days and months (the Arabic ones

are unplayable, e.g. "yawm ath-thulaathaa"), a description of the important

holidays and festivals, and one or two conversions of specific years (1921 and

1922, probably).

[rust]

Are you submitting this for publication?

No, at least not in a commercial sense. I usually put my settings into the

download section of the Fundus Ludi, my German "home forum", for other

users to use as they please. Therefore the material does not need to have

a professional quality, but I do of course want it to be good enough to be

downloaded and used.

[rust]

[A couple of hours later ... ]

Hiss ... russst hatess nasssty calendarsss thingiesss ... :mad:

[Aycorn]

The simple (and sarcastic-sounding) answer is: as much as you need and no more.

You want enough detail to be able to respond to questions or situations your players may think of, and to give your setting versimilitude.

On the other hand, it's all too easy to get bogged down in details that hold no interest for the players and no relevance to the game. That means you're spinning your wheels. The players may never even see it.

I know Sandy Petersen once wrote that a lot of times his private scenarios covered one side of one sheet of paper, and unimportant NPC's had no stats (i.e. a guard at a door who was just there to be killed or knocked out anyway).

Now, obviously in a published thing, it needs to be very detailed because that's what's expected. But those published things are worked on over time, and often by multiple authors. You (or I) may need something soon, and be working alone.

I once read a book on writing that gave a good analogy - I could probably look it up if anyone's interested - but in a nutshell, it suggested you imagine you're drawing pictures with a child. You sit down to draw, say, a barnyard. If you sit there and draw a fence, a barn, a rooser, a cow, a tractor, a farmer, etc ... that kid will get bored very fast. So you draw a fence and maybe a rooster and then you say to the kid - "okay - you draw the rest." It works the same way. The reader (or the player) needs room for their imagination.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

[Dredj]

[A couple of hours later ... ]

Hiss ... russst hatess nasssty calendarsss thingiesss ... :mad:

Don't use them. Unless the characters are monks or church officials, they probably have very little, if any, use for a calendar, anyway. Post links and information about the calendars and let those who want to use your setting determine the particulars, themselves.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Dredj

[Dredj]

Remember, all an adventure is is just a goal(s) with conflict and obstacles getting in the way of accomplishing that goal(s). The setting is just there to determine the types goals and the kinds of conflicts and obstacles the PCs will run into. As well as an aid to visualization.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Dredj

[rust]

You are of course right. The problem is, even if the players will never bother

to look at a calendar, I as the referee should have an idea how that *#*'#*

thing works, when the important religious holidays are, and so on.

Well, at least I have meanwhile discovered a website with a very good calen-

dar conversion tool, so the main problem is solved.

URDU CALENDAR - ISLAMIC - GREGORIAN

[Atgxtg]

rust,

If your world setting isn't Earth, then you don't need to worry about matching up with the Gregorian calendar. Just use your pseudo-Arabic calendar, with a 354-355 day year and let it go at that.

If you are doing a sci-fi setting, I can help you work out what you would need to change to make that happen. All you really need to do is move the planet a little closer to it sun and drop the sun's temperature a bit.

[rust]

Thank you very much for your offer.

Unfortunately my settings' world is out Earth, only the nations described in

the settings are fictional (e.g. San Ignacio replaces El Salvador, Merasan

replaces a part of the United Arab Emirates, Trukpa replaces Bhutan, and so

on).

But thanks to the conversion tool mentioned above, I think the calendar pro-

blem is now far more easy to handle.

[Dredj]

Thank you very much for your offer.

Unfortunately my settings' world is out Earth, only the nations described in

the settings are fictional (e.g. San Ignacio replaces El Salvador, Merasan

replaces a part of the United Arab Emirates, Trukpa replaces Bhutan, and so

on).

But thanks to the conversion tool mentioned above, I think the calendar pro-

blem is now far more easy to handle.

What pseudo-century does your setting take place in?

[Dredj]

And just so you know, even though I promote the Keep It Simple route, I really enjoy trying to find links to help you on your settings, as your settings are always very thought-provoking--and I always learn something when trying to help out.

[rust]

Thank you.

What pseudo-century does your setting take place in?

The classic Call of Cthulhu era, about 1920 - but I have also started to con-

tinue the setting timelines towards Cthulhu Now, about 1990 +.

The entire thing started when I was disappointed by the roleplaying opportu-

nities of our real world in 1920, even the most remote and exotic locations

did not quite offer what I wanted for my games.

I began to change maps, histories and thelike of various small real world na-

tions, but this soon led to a couple of internal contradictions, and in the end

I decided to "delete" the real nations and replace them with purely fictional

ones.

[Atgxtg]

Thank you very much for your offer.

Unfortunately my settings' world is out Earth, only the nations described in

the settings are fictional (e.g. San Ignacio replaces El Salvador, Merasan

replaces a part of the United Arab Emirates, Trukpa replaces Bhutan, and so

on).

But thanks to the conversion tool mentioned above, I think the calendar pro-

blem is now far more easy to handle.

Uh, why can't you just alter the length of year? Since you are altering nations and such, if you shorten the year it won't hurt much. For example if just "moved" the Earth about 4.5 million km closer to the sun (about 3% closer for a distance of around 144.5 million km (0.97 AU) and lowered the sun"s intensity by about 1.5% you'd have an Earth with a year of 354.37 days.

[rust]

Uh, why can't you just alter the length of year?

You are doubtless right, and thank you very much for the calculation - but

it somehow "feels wrong" to move the entire planet (silly, I know ).

However, the idea may come handy for another setting I am thinking about,

something more science fiction.

[Atgxtg]

You are doubtless right, and thank you very much for the calculation - but

it somehow "feels wrong" to move the entire planet (silly, I know ).

You mean like pre-crisis Superman silly? He move the Earth several times, (apparently for everybody except Lois) ?

One thing you might want to try is just come up with an in game reason for the shift.

I think if I look at my math a bit, I can probably find a way to give you a shorter year without moving the planet. According to Kepler's third law:

d[AU]3 = P[years]2 * M[solarMasses]

So if we keep the distance as 1 AU, and plug in a 354.37 day year, we get an M of 1.06, for a sun about 6% more massive than out own. I think that works out to Earth receiving about 3% more energy. Something that your could easily ignore, or if you wanted to explain away by having something screening off some of the energy.

Although, if you aren't running a modern of futuristic campaign no one would really know that the Earth wasn't in the "right place".

However, the idea may come handy for another setting I am thinking about,

something more science fiction.

I can dig out my sourcebooks, Most of the math for this sort of thing is fairly basic. One neat bit is that there are a few variables that can be used to justify some differences. For example, altering the planet's magnetic field or axial tilt can cause some neat effects.

[rust]

You mean like pre-crisis Superman silly?

More like "silly" as in "how my silly brain works".

When I am working on a science fiction setting, I love to play around with

natural sciences and technology, but in "Call of Cthulhu mode" it is all about

history, theology and the social sciences, my brain then simply refuses to

deal with natural sciences and technology, except perhaps a bit of geogra-

phy to alter some real world maps.

Somehow my brain seems to believe that my suspension of disbelief would

break down the very moment a Ctulhu setting comes in touch with a natural

science or mathematics ...

[Atgxtg]

More like "silly" as in "how my silly brain works".

When I am working on a science fiction setting, I love to play around with

natural sciences and technology, but in "Call of Cthulhu mode" it is all about

history, theology and the social sciences, my brain then simply refuses to

deal with natural sciences and technology, except perhaps a bit of geogra-

phy to alter some real world maps.

Somehow my brain seems to believe that my suspension of disbelief would

break down the very moment a Ctulhu setting comes in touch with a natural

science or mathematics ...

So don't force him. Just say the year is shorter. For all we know if could be so Nyarlathotep's take out dinner can get to Earth faster.

[sdavies2720]

...So if we keep the distance as 1 AU, and plug in a 354.37 day year, we get an M of 1.06, for a sun about 6% more massive than out own. I think that works out to Earth receiving about 3% more energy. Something that your could easily ignore, or if you wanted to explain away by having something screening off some of the energy.

Like one of the gods syphoning it off for his own needs, and a once-in-a-milennium eclipse is coming when he passes between the earth and the sun, blotting out all energy and dropping the earth into an abyss of chaos from which it can only emerge if our heroes finish a complex ritual before the hour-long-eclipse is finished? And they only find out about it a day before the cataclysm is about to happen?

That kind of something?