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Yelm, runes and spells and heroquests


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17 hours ago, jajagappa said:
17 hours ago, None said:

On the topic of Golden Bow, do anyone know if the four taboos and gifts of that subcult replace or are on top of the normal shaman initation process?

I believe they replace it.

I have to  bring this up again, if just briefly.

Does this mean that Golden Bow Initiates don't meet the Bad Man ( I think he was called) and duel with him during their initiation?

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24 minutes ago, None said:

I have to  bring this up again, if just briefly.

Does this mean that Golden Bow Initiates don't meet the Bad Man ( I think he was called) and duel with him during their initiation?

they have to meet someone to become shaman in all cases (with the same stats). i consider all human shamans meet bad (hu)man

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2 hours ago, None said:

That said. I consider Ernalda and Dendara to be beyond a doubt two entirely separate goddesses and Denadar to not even be an Earth Goddess but a Sky Godess albeit with the Light Rune instead of the Sun Rune).

They are effectively the same goddess, Ernalda is everything that Dendara wants to be, but cannot. Dendara is everything that Ernalda cannot be, but will not.

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  • None changed the title to Yelm, runes and spells and heroquests

I've changed the title to include and encourage discusions of solar and yelmic heroquests. Speaking of, doesn't the Glorious Reascent of Yelm claim the spike was created by Yelm stepoing on the ground (Earth?) the one ime he deigned to go below the sky?

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On 4/1/2021 at 10:50 AM, None said:

Why is Yelm's runes marked as [Sky/Fire, Fertiity, Death] and why does he only have one Fire/Sky Rune en though Orlanth and Ernalda have two Storm or Earth runes respectively and Yelm is clearly shown to have the [Sun/Sky, Stasis, Mastery] runes in Guide to Glorantha?

Yelm owns Fire/Sky so probably should have two.

Yelm had Fertility/Life and Death in older writeups, as he is a god of both Life and Death.

Yelm subcults may well have Stasis and Mastery.

On 4/1/2021 at 10:50 AM, None said:

What's even wierder is that you don't need the Death or Fertility rune for any of Yelm's spells. They can all be cast with hte Sky/Fire Rune.

He is the Sun, much of his power comes from that.

Also, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the Runes that spells have. Two cults with the same spell might use different runes to power the spell.

On 4/1/2021 at 10:50 AM, None said:

Also, how come Yelm has significantly fewer rune spells than Orlanth and Ernalda even though they're all supposed to be equally powerful gods? I've counted them and while somone only initiated into one of Orlanth's subcults has only a few more than what Yelm gives someone initiated into both Adventurous and Thunderous has a several more  spells to chose from not to mention the unique spells given to Rune Lords and Rune Priests.

This is mainly due to how the cults are presented in the rulebook.

Orlanth, for example, has lots of spells, but in older versions Orlanth Adventurous, Orlanth Thunderous and Orlanth Rex were three separate cults, with the Magic Weapons as separate subcults. So, Orlanth used to get a lot of spells from sub cults and associated cults.

Yelm is probably the same, with beings like Hyalor, Saggitus, Hyalor Truetune and so on providing spells to Yelm. he also has a lot of Associated Cults that provide spells.

On 4/1/2021 at 10:50 AM, None said:

You might feel like I'm nitpicking but I find it realluy strange and confusing.

Yelm split into many deities who had his powers, so they grant more spells than he does. Many are sub cults of Yelm and provide spells back to him.

On 4/1/2021 at 10:50 AM, None said:

On that note I'm also curious as to why Yelm doesn't give access to Sunbright even though Yelm is the Sun.

Just give Yelm Sunbright, or have Yelm having given it to Yelmalio. he might get it back from Yelmalio, anyway.

 

On 4/1/2021 at 10:50 AM, None said:

Lastly. How come there are no spells associated with the Stasis Rune in the core book? There are several spells in the book I feel would be appropriateloy associated with the Stasis Rune but all of them are instead associated with the Harmony, Magic or Earth Rune, and in one extremely wierd case with the spell Lock, the Movement Rune.

Personally, I feel that Runepspells are too closely associated with Runes. Sure, some spells come from Runes, but some come from the powers or deeds of deities and should not really be associated with runes.

in the case of Lock, it is Issaries's ability as a Trader, so should use the Trade Rune, but that has been replaced by other runes in RQG.

On 4/1/2021 at 10:50 AM, None said:

How come Yelm's High Holy day is Fire Season, Harmony Week, Fire Day, and not Fire Season, Stasis Week, Fire Day, or even Fire Season, Fertility or Death Week, Fire Day?

Because it is?

Yelm was the God of the sky, of the Heavenly Dance, of Harmony. He is very associated with Harmony. Had it been Fireday/Death Week/Fireseason, people would have asked "Why not Fertility Week?", had it been Fireday/Fertility Week/Fireseason people would have asked "Why not Death Week?"

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On 4/1/2021 at 3:17 PM, None said:

I kind of guessed that was it but that still raises the question how Yelm has two opposing runes whern the book quite directly implies that is tied to Illumination. I have to say that it feels wierd that Yelm doersn't have the Mastery Rune.

Yelm is Illuminated.

He died and went to Hell, then summoned his slayer to prostrate himself before Yelm and beg forgiveness for his deeds. he is a god of Life and Death.

The only others are the Seven Mothers and they are Illuminated as well.

Yelm is the Emperor, he doesn't need the Mastery Rune to show people who is boss.

On 4/1/2021 at 3:17 PM, None said:

That is pretty much a neccitity but my issue wasn't that there weren't events that you could forcibly pick. It was that these are all Praxian and Sartar events.

I am sure they will come, as the RQG Rulebook only really looked at core areas.

We will probably get a full chargen for other cultures in sourcebooks, we just have to be patient.

On 4/1/2021 at 3:17 PM, None said:

Its hard enough for me with how I strain against the entire game system with my refusal to be in any way asociated with anything Sartar or Prax, or anythingh at all Orlanthi. All while it feels as if the game does everything it can to force me into accepting them as the main characters of the entire story. I also not that interested in playing or running a Lunar campaign just yet.

Then you are playing with minority cultures and will have to wait for them.

On 4/1/2021 at 3:17 PM, None said:

(I'm also not that happy that the Lunars are just overlayed on top of most Solars. The bit that the Dara Happan and Lunnar upper layers are merged changes nothing to me. The Red Emperor is called the Red Emperor for a reason andthe Red Goddes and Lunar themes and ideas are clearely accendant and Yelm is pretty much stuffed into a closet for the most part.

I feels like it wastes one of two groups that are each good and interesting enough to be their own thing by mashing them together and no argument that they are actually the same can change that. At most the Lunars are the Romans to the Dara Happans Greeks.

I also stand by that a three side conflict is more dynamic and has more potential than a two side one.)

The Lunars are overlaid on top of the Dara Happans.

The Red Emperor is Emperor of Dara Happa first and the Lunar Empire second. he is a Yelm worshipper, or rather is an avatar of Yelm, so is Yelm Incarnated.

Many of the Yelmic aristocracy are Illuminated, either through their own traditions or through Lunar ways. they rule in the Lunar Empire because they accept rule by the Red Emperor, as their Emperor.

There might be some conflict between them, but not a lot.

In Dara Happa, Yelm is in the ascendant and the Lunars are there, but not as anything major.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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Deep Lore Cut, from a Lunar-ish perspective- Yelm's Illumination comes when he accepts that Kazkurtum, "No Center" is part of himself, and that there can be an Emperor and a King of the Gods and so on and so forth. This is far too granular for RQG rules, I think, but if I were running a heroquest back to the Golden Age then the Emperor would definitely be defined by Stasis and holding things still and in place, and it's only after disintegration and reassembly that Yelm is defined by Fertility and Death. (Unless of course I was running one where the point is a clockwork universe of pure order, and then Yelm might well be defined as Harmony, moving regularly behind the Sky Dome at night.)

The other aspect of this, of course, is that cosmic concordance requires you to lose sometimes. The Sun only rises because all the gods give up something to get something else. Which is to say, if you are a truly enlightened being, you know that in order to wax you must wane.

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

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1 hour ago, Eff said:

I think, but if I were running a heroquest back to the Golden Age then the Emperor would definitely be defined by Stasis and holding things still and in place, and it's only after disintegration and reassembly that Yelm is defined by Fertility and Death.

That's a really neat idea. It gives a couple of interesting possibilities and things to think about if you do Yelmic Golden Age Hero Quests.

Edit: Oh, right. I wanted to ask if any of you know or have tought of any interesting Yelmic myths and HeroQuests. Aside from the thing wit the Spike I mentioned earlier. (Something that feel like it should have incredible anti-chaos potential.)

I'm also going to repeat a few of the things I wrote in my last post of page one as the thread shifted over to this page immediately after due to my doubleposting (something I try to avoid but I felt the earlier post was getting bloated and the later post's topic was distinctly separate).

Here:

10 hours ago, None said:

About the Grazers and Ernalda in general though. Are ther any way you know of to mess  with Ernalda the same way you can mess with Orlanth? She sems much harder to get to and then there is that whoe thing about how she (as the earth) is what gives or descides the right of sovereignity.

Something I'm pretty sure Solar muths don't have or even acknowledge. Don't they think all authority comes from and descends from Yelm?

 

10 hours ago, None said:

Isn't Yelmalios Hill of Gold Heroquest one of those that as a lot of potential a Yelmalio Quester could potentially defeat Zoran Zorak and not lose Yelmalio's flame. Then there is the part where Orlanth stole Yelmalios weapons, you could stop that from happening too, or even better steal Orlanths weapons and gouge Zoran Zorak.

By the way. Do you have any idead what would happen if you're initiated into Yelm (as a Grazer) and then also initiates into Yelmalio for some reason? Would you actuly ose your ability to wield fire magic (rine or spirit) due to Yelmalio's restriction on that part?

 

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37 minutes ago, None said:

By the way. Do you have any idead what would happen if you're initiated into Yelm (as a Grazer) and then also initiates into Yelmalio for some reason? Would you actuly ose your ability to wield fire magic (rine or spirit) due to Yelmalio's restriction on that part?

Why would you want to?

For Yelm worshippers, Yelmalio is an inferior cult.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

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3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Why would you want to?

For Yelm worshippers, Yelmalio is an inferior cult.

As a character? Without knowing the story the character has gone through I wouldn't know.

As a player? Probably for the gifts.

As someone who likes rules clarity? Both of the two above are moot and the question itself is reason enough.

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Yelmalio's restrictions on fire magic as part of a geas would probably still operate, but those are less encompassing than they might appear- they cover the use of fire magic for combat purposes, mostly, not things like Ignite. 

More generally, I think the tension between being a Cold Sun and Hot Sun cultist is probably manageable but also something that's ripe for dramatic tension over whether you're a blazing source of heat and life or a cold incarnation of justice and hope. 

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

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21 hours ago, None said:

Do you have any idead what would happen if you're initiated into Yelm (as a Grazer) and then also initiates into Yelmalio for some reason? Would you actuly ose your ability to wield fire magic (rine or spirit) due to Yelmalio's restriction on that part?

If you keep in mind that Yelmalio = Lightfore = Kargzant = Antirius, then you recognize that this is the Light of the world that remained after Yelm was killed and fell apart.  And when Yelm rose again, they were both reunited and yet also distinct.  (E.g. Antirius is a subcult of Yelm in DH.  Lightfore is the planet that follows the Sunpath by night, rising when Yelm sets, setting when Yelm rises.)

I would play it that the Yelm initiate is reconnecting to their lost part.  That part is not a Fire power, but a Light power.  However, the Light is subservient to the greater Fire power in this case, so I would not penalize the Yelm initiate in that regard.  (I like to think of it as Yelm regaining his Torch of Truth or similar.)

But, the Yelm initiate in this case might not gain Yelmalio's gifts and geases.  He has not been destroyed yet, has not undergone Yelmalio's journeys and wanderings.  And he still wields the powers of Fire, nobility, majesty, etc, so would not need to take on such.

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

If you keep in mind that Yelmalio = Lightfore = Kargzant = Antirius, then you recognize that this is the Light of the world that remained after Yelm was killed and fell apart.  And when Yelm rose again, they were both reunited and yet also distinct.  (E.g. Antirius is a subcult of Yelm in DH.  Lightfore is the planet that follows the Sunpath by night, rising when Yelm sets, setting when Yelm rises.)

I would play it that the Yelm initiate is reconnecting to their lost part.  That part is not a Fire power, but a Light power.  However, the Light is subservient to the greater Fire power in this case, so I would not penalize the Yelm initiate in that regard.  (I like to think of it as Yelm regaining his Torch of Truth or similar.)

But, the Yelm initiate in this case might not gain Yelmalio's gifts and geases.  He has not been destroyed yet, has not undergone Yelmalio's journeys and wanderings.  And he still wields the powers of Fire, nobility, majesty, etc, so would not need to take on such.

Ah, that means that an interested Grazer Yelmite could so to speak discover the Yelmic subcult of Yelmalio. That's areally interesting way to handle it but one important question then is. Culd such a Yelm worshiper use a Yelmlio shrine or temple to regain rune points as if worshiping at a Yelm shrine or temple?

Personally I'm partial to saying yes because I a Grazer Yelmite ends up to far away from the Grazelands (such as Prax or Pavis for instance) they'd be in serious trouble if not (and that's before taking the way Praxian look at horses into consideration, just imagine the troubles a Golden Bow shaman could face in Prax).

----

I've been thinking about this a lot so I have to through the complete thought out here. About the bit I mentioned about the spike earlier:

On 4/2/2021 at 2:13 PM, None said:

Speaking of, doesn't the Glorious Reascent of Yelm claim the spike was created by Yelm steping on the ground (Earth?) the one ime he deigned to go below the sky?

Would it be possible for a Yelmic Hero Quester to create more Truestone?

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On 4/2/2021 at 1:13 PM, None said:

Speaking of, doesn't the Glorious Reascent of Yelm claim the spike was created by Yelm stepoing on the ground (Earth?) the one ime he deigned to go below the sky?

What's your reference in GRoY for this. I can only find one reference to the spike, and that's about putting someone on a spike...

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16 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I don't think Yelm created the Spike or Truestone (that was likely Mostal), so I'd say no.

 

9 minutes ago, David Scott said:

What's your reference in GRoY for this. I can only find one reference to the spike, and that's about putting someone on a spike...

Ah, no I was wrong. I  had to check again and it was due to me confusing the Fotstool (and to a lesser extent the Harmonious Realm) with the Spike the first time I read the early chapters of GRoY due to me not really knowing what the Spike was at the time and then the memmory stuck. Sorry.

 

The bit about Creating the Harmonious Realm should have some Hero Quest potential though (I'm just not sure what Pure in this instance is suposed to mean). Wouldit allow you to make an area more fertile? Or less wild?

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17 minutes ago, None said:

Ah, no I was wrong. I  had to check again and it was due to me confusing the Fotstool (and to a lesser extent the Harmonious Realm) with the Spike the first time I read the early chapters of GRoY due to me not really knowing what the Spike was at the time and then the memmory stuck. Sorry.

That's not exactly wrong - the Footstool is at the very least an aspect or "child object" of the Spike. It was the local Axis Mundi, superior to a number of other, lesser towers in its image (shown on the Copper Ledgers as the cities of the Eight Planetary Sons, mapped on the Oslir Valley, managing to place Nivorah north and east of Alkoth due to stronger meandering of the Oslir than is found on historical maps.

Part of the God Learner maps in the Guide are overlain with the Dara Happan directional domains, most egregiously the Heron Hegemony placed somewhere in the neighborhood of Jrustela and Slon which is a reflection of Surenslib's Suvaria in relationship to the Footstool.

But the Footstool has no association with Truestone. On the other hand, the Gods Wall might, at least the rolling seal used to imprint it on the valley side may have been made from Adamantium.

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18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That's not exactly wrong - the Footstool is at the very least an aspect or "child object" of the Spike. It was the local Axis Mundi, superior to a number of other, lesser towers in its image (shown on the Copper Ledgers as the cities of the Eight Planetary Sons, mapped on the Oslir Valley, managing to place Nivorah north and east of Alkoth due to stronger meandering of the Oslir than is found on historical maps.

Part of the God Learner maps in the Guide are overlain with the Dara Happan directional domains, most egregiously the Heron Hegemony placed somewhere in the neighborhood of Jrustela and Slon which is a reflection of Surenslib's Suvaria in relationship to the Footstool.

But the Footstool has no association with Truestone. On the other hand, the Gods Wall might, at least the rolling seal used to imprint it on the valley side may have been made from Adamantium.

Interesting. That does at least in my mind open up some Heroquesting possibilities in regards to the Spike. Distant and imperfect ones, yes, but still possibilities if you're creativeand prepared enough.

 

----

Quick aside as I don't want to creat an entire thread for one smple quetion but this has been bugging me a lot recsently (read: today).

Belinmtar and the Holy country. He is the ruler of the Holy country yes? Why Is he associated with Esrolia in the generation of your characters past in the core book?

I thought Belintar and the Holy country was located to the east of esrolia past the Bay of ... uh (I don't rememberthe name right now but Im sure you know what strech of water I'm talking about).

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1 hour ago, None said:

Culd such a Yelm worshiper use a Yelmlio shrine or temple to regain rune points as if worshiping at a Yelm shrine or temple?

you can join the associated cult (Yelmalio) ceremony  to replenish it.

remember that there is another option:  you can replenish anywhere, with the sanctify spell. I would just say the pc should select a location aligned with their gods.

For example I am not sure it is a good choice to sanctify a dark cave to worship Yelm, when you just have 100m to see the sun.

If you are following Yelm emperor of the world, great sun of everyone, etc... I would request a devotion roll to identify that the effort to move to the light is a good idea... (then failure = loss of devotion and stay in cave so worship malus)

Of course if you are in a ceremony dedicated to Yelm in hell, it is different but seems to me more a location to start an heroquest or some mystic activity than the standard worship

 

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3 hours ago, None said:

Belinmtar and the Holy country. He is the ruler of the Holy country yes? Why Is he associated with Esrolia in the generation of your characters past in the core book?

I thought Belintar and the Holy country was located to the east of esrolia past the Bay of ... uh (I don't rememberthe name right now but Im sure you know what strech of water I'm talking about).

The Holy Country is made up of six regions that surround the Mirrorsea Bay:  Esrolia (Earth), Caladraland (Fire), Rightarm Islands (Water), Leftarm Islands aka God Forgot (the empty Sixth), Heortland (Air), and the Shadow Plateau (Darkness).

Esrolia is the only one of the sixths included in the core book, so it's the one that has associations with Belintar.  As other Holy Country homelands are developed, they too will undoubtedly include Belintar.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's not exactly wrong - the Footstool is at the very least an aspect or "child object" of the Spike.

Or, alternately, the Footstool is a deity that Yelm made subservient to him.

image.png.59dda449ec508addb273d5dfe5343be9.png

4 hours ago, None said:

The bit about Creating the Harmonious Realm should have some Hero Quest potential though (I'm just not sure what Pure in this instance is suposed to mean). Wouldit allow you to make an area more fertile? Or less wild?

More ordered, more civilized.  A good example is the Red Moon Rising scenario in the HQG book Pavis: Gateway to Adventure where the Lunar authorities take on the role of Yelm and go through the Naming ritual which defines and restrains the abilities of all the 100 "gods".  If you let Yelm name you, then you cannot be anything beyond what he has named you (e.g. Orlanth bound as the Dutiful Air).  Or, if you refuse the naming then you are banished to the lands outside the Harmonious Realm - e.g. places at the edge of the world or in the Underworld. 

"Pure" here meaning not "polluted" with rebellious, disorderly, thieving, lustful, or other distracting and impure ways.

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4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Or, alternately, the Footstool is a deity that Yelm made subservient to him.

image.png.59dda449ec508addb273d5dfe5343be9.png

 

Even though that appears under the Emperor's feet, that's not the Footstool but rather KetEnari with her city-crown.  The symbolism is that the Emperor's might rests upon the Cities.  The Footstool is shown elsewhere on the wall with the Cosmic Pillar attached.  

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13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Even though that appears under the Emperor's feet, that's not the Footstool but rather KetEnari with her city-crown.  The symbolism is that the Emperor's might rests upon the Cities.  The Footstool is shown elsewhere on the wall with the Cosmic Pillar attached.

Yes, thanks for noting that down in Row III.

image.png.0db4f378820088266c7594624497d776.png

The description sounds a lot like Kero Fin (as well as the noted Selsheena).

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Caladraland? Can't say I've heard about that place before. Do they also worship Yelm and how?

 

15 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

you can join the associated cult (Yelmalio) ceremony  to replenish it.

Yes but it really unreliable. A Yelm worshiper can easily become rune point starved in Pavis and Prax compared to Storm worshipers, especially if you end up in situations that are rune point intensive and don't have the luxury to wait serveral weeks.

While you could say that's just something you'd have to deal with as an out of place Yelmic Grazerit can also end up being very much not fun in the long run and even concecrating the ground with your runepoints is problematic and risky not to mention it forces you to operate at one or two rune points less than you actually have.

This brings up a question actually. How difficult or easy is it to estaplish a Yelm cult? The bit about how you have to be descended from Yelm litided in that respect and I don't think there's a lot of people with Yelmic descent in Pavis.

 

---

That reminds me. An idea I had not to long ago was about some Grazers trying to infuce the Pol Joni with Yelmic blood (via marriage not some wierd blod transformatrion ritual) and then convert them to Yelm. All done with the argument 'Better Horses' made to the Pol Joni.

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