Yelm, runes and spells and heroquests

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 minutes ago, None said:

Yes but it really unreliable. A Yelm worshiper can easily become rune point starved in Pavis and Prax compared to Storm worshipers, especially if you end up in situations that are rune point intensive and don't have the luxury to wait serveral weeks.

While you could say that's just something you'd have to deal with as an out of place Yelmic Grazerit can also end up being very much not fun in the long run and even concecrating the ground with your runepoints is problematic and risky not to mention it forces you to operate at one or two rune points less than you actually have.

as always there is the main stream, and there is the river you want to follow 🙂

how many storm temple you have  in DH / lunar empire ? if storm pc want to visit dara happan, they have to deal with this difficulty, or the GM has to decide to follow his/her little river where they can replenish without difficulties

Same for Yelm. Where can you find Yelm ? the central Emperor is based in the center of the empire. Go far from the center, you will find less opportunity to find it.

Up to you (pc) to find a way to keep your relationship with your deity. That is exactly the same with lunar: you have border cult (seven mother) and center cult (red moon)

Up to you (GM) to deviate from the main, in pavis you find praxian and EWF or praxian and orlanthi (including yelmalio-elma maybe), or praxian and orlanthi and lunar (and yelmalio for sure) depending on the period.

[soltakss]

15 minutes ago, None said:

Caladraland? Can't say I've heard about that place before. Do they also worship Yelm and how?

Caladraland is the Volcano Land. It worships Lodril, under some local name that I can never remember, but also worships the Volcano Twins, Caladra and Aurelion. It is a rain forest that the inhabitants farm using slash and burn technology. The Volcano Priests used to throw people into the volcanoes as sacrifices, but stopped when Belintar offered himself up and then returned from the dead. Who knows, they might start this practice up again.

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, None said:

Caladraland? Can't say I've heard about that place before. Do they also worship Yelm and how?

Lodril the Volcano God - Yelm's lusty brother who enmeshed himself with the Earth instead of staying "pure".  It's the same deity as the DH god of peasants and workers.  There is no explicit Yelm worship in Caladraland. 

8 hours ago, None said:

How difficult or easy is it to estaplish a Yelm cult? The bit about how you have to be descended from Yelm litided in that respect and I don't think there's a lot of people with Yelmic descent in Pavis.

If you can't prove your connection to and descent from Yelm, you're not going to be recognized by Yelm as one of his and be able to establish a Yelm cult.  It's why the Yelmalio is so much more popular and accessible in these lands.

8 hours ago, None said:

An idea I had not to long ago was about some Grazers trying to infuce the Pol Joni with Yelmic blood (via marriage not some wierd blod transformatrion ritual) and then convert them to Yelm. All done with the argument 'Better Horses' made to the Pol Joni.

Except that the Grazers (the Pure Horse People) are going to look upon the Pol Joni as "impure".  The Pol Joni not only don't show descent from Yelm, but they raise, herd, and eat COWS!  (They are called the "Cattle Bastards" after all.) 

This is not to say it couldn't happen, but why would a Grazer noble risk becoming impure?

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

This is not to say it couldn't happen, but why would a Grazer noble risk becoming impure?

I think it is a key point

I understand Yelm followers (at least initiate) as people  who don't want to convince others to "join" Yelm, they want others to obey (as client, servant or slave).

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[Joerg]

I think that there were Grazer chiefs and clans who were completely unwilling to follow the Feathered Horse Queen and her tame Stallion King, and who may have joined the Pol Joni if they did not leave for the West or set upon a long trek to the Redlands.

The Pol Joni offer a chance to remain under male rulership, for the price of leaving the Pure Horse path.

[None]

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

20 hours ago, None said:

How difficult or easy is it to estaplish a Yelm cult? The bit about how you have to be descended from Yelm litided in that respect and I don't think there's a lot of people with Yelmic descent in Pavis.

If you can't prove your connection to and descent from Yelm, you're not going to be recognized by Yelm as one of his and be able to establish a Yelm cult.  It's why the Yelmalio is so much more popular and accessible in these lands.

No I meant: How difficult is if to establish a Yelm cult as a Yelm Initiate (or Runr LOrd or Runr Priest) in a land or place without anyone else but you yourself descended from Yelm?

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

20 hours ago, None said:

An idea I had not to long ago was about some Grazers trying to infuce the Pol Joni with Yelmic blood (via marriage not some wierd blod transformatrion ritual) and then convert them to Yelm. All done with the argument 'Better Horses' made to the Pol Joni.

Except that the Grazers (the Pure Horse People) are going to look upon the Pol Joni as "impure".  The Pol Joni not only don't show descent from Yelm, but they raise, herd, and eat COWS!  (They are called the "Cattle Bastards" after all.) 

This is not to say it couldn't happen, but why would a Grazer noble risk becoming impure?

I, well, that is, er, um -

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

I think that there were Grazer chiefs and clans who were completely unwilling to follow the Feathered Horse Queen and her tame Stallion King, and who may have joined the Pol Joni if they did not leave for the West or set upon a long trek to the Redlands.

The Pol Joni offer a chance to remain under male rulership, for the price of leaving the Pure Horse path.

This! Or maybe you're some really eccentric and ambitious Yelic Grazer with, lets call it vision, that is trying to recreate a rely obscure and esotirc myth frm the lost Godtime or something.

Actually my idea there was entirely on the level of harebrined (hairbrained?) player scheemes.

I wasn't thinking as a GM, I was thinking as a player juggling aruond character concepts and situations said characters could find themselves in andd noticed that a Yelmic Grazelander in Pavis or Prax faces some chalenges with how you're cut of from Yelmic worship and have to rely on Yelmalio as an associated cult.

Then I asked myself 'How do I fix this?' (under the assumption that I'm a player) With my first thought beeing 'Lets establish a Yelm cult and shrine. That should- oh, wait, no descendants of Yelm in Pavis or Prax.'

Somehow my mind made the jump from that to 'Wait, the Pol Joni ride horses and Yelm is really good with horses. Defenitely better than Orlanth.' Then everything just spiraled away to 'Turning an orlanthi tclan to sun worsghip and stealing thme away from Orlanth right under him would be really amusing,' and bu that time I was just sittg there mentally giggling at the thought and more or less plausible visions of potential falouts.

I doubt I would ever even concider it while thinking as a GM.

--

 

I have however considered a Ylmic Grazer upricing led buy a secret society of grazers withingthe Grazelands that want to topple and replace the Feathered Horse Queen with a true Luminous Stallion King.

Basicallly thery would have been a couple of Grazer clans who had kept tronger and older, more unchanged Solar traditions from before the Feathered Horse Queen, or maybe even further back.

Never having really satisfied or happy with her ascendancy they lost their patience with he las few Horse Queens.

Starting with the one who lost to the Lunars, followed by the one who allied with the Lunars (even worse), to the one who was apparently involvedin the Dragonkill and died because of it, and now there's one whose really ambitiousd and will probably mess things up even more (that is what this faction feel at any rate).

Clearly the Horse Quens are  going dowhill and are no longer fit to rule (if they ever where). It is time for the true Sun Horse to return (and so on and so forth).

I haven't thought about it farther than this and it could be used either as a threat the players have to deal with or something they're involved in themselves but I think it is a scenario that has some potenttial

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, None said:

No I meant: How difficult is if to establish a Yelm cult as a Yelm Initiate (or Runr LOrd or Runr Priest) in a land or place without anyone else but you yourself descended from Yelm?

You are a Yelm cultist. Your legitimate sons are Yelm cultists. you can initiate them into Yelm. Eventually, you or they become Rune Level in the cult of Yelm and you, as the ranking member of Yelm have the authority to invest them.

You probably won't get the many layers of the Yelm cult, but you can definitely establish the cult in your family.

However, it will only be a family cult, as outsiders cannot generally join it, except as members of Yelm the Elder if they are Priests of Associate cults and only by invitation from you.

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

You are a Yelm cultist. Your legitimate sons are Yelm cultists. you can initiate them into Yelm. Eventually, you or they become Rune Level in the cult of Yelm and you, as the ranking member of Yelm have the authority to invest them.

You probably won't get the many layers of the Yelm cult, but you can definitely establish the cult in your family.

However, it will only be a family cult, as outsiders cannot generally join it, except as members of Yelm the Elder if they are Priests of Associate cults and only by invitation from you.

that means: you can create a site (p284), or very exceptionnaly a shrine, if you have enough lay member followers (aka, soldiers, servants and wifes from associated / friend cults)

[None]

Do any of you have a good idea on how to make players dare to invent their own heroquests? An issue I have with Glorantha is that it very easily feels like you have to know and possess a firm grasp of its myths and god-time stories to feel you can really make heroquests of your own. Or preferably, adapt something that already exists in canon.

Comming up with heroquests, not to mention doing so on the fly, and for players in particular, isn't always that easy.

Even though their charactes should know some to many secret myths about their god due to their cult lore skill and rolls that doesn't make it easier for the players. Especially for players that doesn't want to just convinentlysuddenly know a myth and heroquest that just so hsappens to be very useful and beneficial to their current goals and interests.

Its also not easy for the GM to supply each player with a comprehensive list of appropriate myths and heroquets eather, for a variety of reasons. Not to mention that I feel that doing so risks limiting the players far too much anyhow.

[jajagappa]

19 minutes ago, None said:

Do any of you have a good idea on how to make players dare to invent their own heroquests?

Read real-world myths and tales.  Draw on the classic archetypes.  This is "once upon a time" land. 

22 minutes ago, None said:

An issue I have with Glorantha is that it very easily feels like you have to know and possess a firm grasp of its myths and god-time stories to feel you can really make heroquests of your own.

No, not necessary.  But keep the figures in mind as to how you want to position them in the story - what "mask" do they wear (e.g. the wicked stepmother, the evil giant, the troll under the bridge, etc.)?  It's really about what story do you want to tell (or the players want to participate in)?  A Quest for the Forbidden Fruit?  A drink from the Well of Wisdom?  Rescuing the animals from the evil sorcerer?  Escaping the Flood?

The myths of Glorantha are still our myths.  They are the stories of overcoming great obstacles to restore balance to the world, or correcting wrongs, etc.  The deities are not strangers - they are the Sun, the Moon, the Earth, the Storm, the fearful Darkness, War, Death, Life, Peace, etc.  They have Gloranthan names and the stories are placed into Glorantha, but a great array of myths and tales transport just nicely into this world.

[None]

14 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

They have Gloranthan names and the stories are placed into Glorantha, but a great array of myths and tales transport just nicely into this world.

It doesn't entirely resolve the issue with, or even for  the players. For the GM things are easier but even there there are some issues as while most stories and myths in our world can easily be trasported to Glorantha as you said. Especially if taken in broad strokes but the difficulty isn't so much in coming up with myths and stories per see.

Its also the wory that you you might create a myth create something that breaks character for the gods or one way, or another breaks immersion, or that the myths you just created might case issue you didn't think of at the moment.

Such as. I don't know.

 

Le's say you've so far portrayed Ernalda as a truly benevolent goddess that would never let anyone suffer  through her actions unless absolutely nessecary, much less ever cause collateral damage, and would never do anything without a really good, unselfish reason.

Then you suddenly (be you player or GM) create a myth where she basically goes full Demeter on the entire world because one of her daughters didn't come hom at dinner and she's essentially blackmailing everyone to comply to her demands untill her daughter is back with her.

 

Now, this isn't that much of an issue if you know that myths that contradict each other completely can exist in Glorantha without any problem and for a GM it is even less of a problem but for the player.

This can be especially hard for the players, whose position I'm more concerned with than the GMs. As a GM you have much more easaily prepare things before hand and you have a certain, eh, lets call it 'extended autority' that the players don't have.

Players must also deal with that the wory that the're inventing a myth that is just way to convenient for what they whant or need at the moment. (Yes, I know heroquetsts aren't something you just perform at the drop of a hat but that doesn't really change what I'm talking about.)

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, None said:

An issue I have with Glorantha is that it very easily feels like you have to know and possess a firm grasp of its myths and god-time stories to feel you can really make heroquests of your own. Or preferably, adapt something that already exists in canon.

I have exactly the same issue.

And since 1990 I have no solution... Glorantha background is so "sacred" to me that my brain is frozen to create any heroquest.

How weird it is, as I am able to create and  adapt rules, imagine mundane story in glorantha, able to create myth for my own universes, but unable to "touch" the gloranthan myths

So no answer, but you're not alone 😉

 

 

[None]

1 minute ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I have exactly the same issue.

And since 1990 I have no solution... Glorantha background is so "sacred" to me that my brain is frozen to create any heroquest.

How weird it is, as I am able to create and  adapt rules, imagine mundane story in glorantha, able to create myth for my own universes, but unable to "touch" the gloranthan myths

So no answer, but you're not alone 😉

 

 

Small myths aren't that muchof a problem, especially not for a GM but anything to huge that it might shake the setting so to speak is... you can easily get aprehensive about it, and for player its even worse.

[jajagappa]

12 minutes ago, None said:

Its also the wory that you you might create a myth create something that breaks character for the gods or one way, or another breaks immersion, or that the myths you just created might case issue you didn't think of at the moment.

First, I suggest that the myth-creation be a joint effort by GM and players.  That will help keep it constrained and not just be a treasure hunting expedition or game mechanic exploitation.  (And whatever the myth ends up being the GM is free to throw in other plot twists.)

Second, use the Runes of the deity as guidance for the gods.  What personality traits and characteristics are involved with the Runes.  (E.g. Lhankor Mhy has Truth and Stasis.  He keeps and retains knowledge.  He may be stubborn in withholding knowledge he's gained.  Or greedy for knowledge he doesn't have.  Those both fit.)

16 minutes ago, None said:

Le's say you've so far portrayed Ernalda as a truly benevolent goddess that would never let anyone suffer  through her actions unless absolutely nessecary, much less ever cause collateral damage, and would never do anything without a really good, unselfish reason.

Then you've not really met the Earth goddess yet!  Look upon the face of Maran Gor, or the offspring of Ernalda, Babeester Gor.  Ernalda is very good at cursing, or withholding her blessings from those who displease her.

(Chalana Arroy on the other hand is very much that benevolent goddess.  But maybe she doesn't want you to eat the Apple of Knowledge because she knows you'll suffer for it.  And puts up barriers to keep you from it.  And if you get it nonetheless, then she withdraws her blessings from you and so you are exposed to Mallia.)

19 minutes ago, None said:

Then you suddenly (be you player or GM) create a myth where she basically goes full Demeter on the entire world because one of her daughters didn't come hom at dinner and she's essentially blackmailing everyone to comply to her demands untill her daughter is back with her.

And... the problem with this is what?  You're in the gods world now.  And that sounds very much like Ernalda. 

21 minutes ago, None said:

This can be especially hard for the players, whose position I'm more concerned with than the GMs.

I'm not seeing the issue here.  You're dealing with the gods.  You learn something new about a god, it adds to your Cult Lore. 

[jajagappa]

27 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I have exactly the same issue.

And since 1990 I have no solution... Glorantha background is so "sacred" to me that my brain is frozen to create any heroquest.

How weird it is, as I am able to create and  adapt rules, imagine mundane story in glorantha, able to create myth for my own universes, but unable to "touch" the gloranthan myths

I do have difficulty in understanding why though (our reliance on definitive written religious texts, perhaps vs. an older, shifting oral tradition?).  For myself, I found Glorantha very liberating in that regard, particularly with the release of works like Glorious ReAscent of Yelm.  What that work told me was that if Greg was willing and able to recast the stories/myths, and tell them from the other side, then any of us could do so as well.

The myths aren't carved in stone.  Nor are they one-sided.  Every myth is told from the position of the protagonist.  But every "antagonist" or participant in that myth has their own story - i.e. a new myth which hasn't been told.

My starting point in plunging in was the Hill of Gold myth for Yelmalio.  In that story, Yelmalio goes to the Hill of Gold and still has the powers of his father (i.e. Fire).  He's defeated by Orlanth (i.e. the Storm puts out the Fire) and then robbed by Zorak Zoran (i.e. the embers are reduced to ash).  Yelmalio limps away, retaining just his powers of Light.  But he goes on to lead others, rally them, and at the end, he's the one who has survived the Great Darkness and is there to greet Yelm when the Sun returns.

There are variations of this (you can find some in Arcane Lore, others were in one of the Enclosure fanzines).  Sometimes Yelmalio faces Inora as well and she freezes him in the Ice, but cannot kill him (ice cannot diminish the Light).  And he is gnawed upon by Chaos parasites, but survives those too.

So out of that, I took one part and created a new tale when I developed Imther.  In any of these tales, the gods have companions.  So Yelmalio was accompanied by his torchbearer (i.e. Truth), his shieldbearer (i.e. the Shield of Light), and a guide (i.e. a trickster).  Why is he ambushed by Orlanth?  Because he was betrayed.  And his companions fled bearing the relics (or Yelmalio sent them away to keep the relics safe).  They are wounded too.  Following one thread, the shieldbearer (Khelmal in my tales) bears not just the shield, but he carries Hope.  He's pursued by evil demons (i.e. Zorak Zoran, the hell wind).  He's aided by another Trickster, who makes him very small so he can hide.  But he's still able to bring that tiny piece of Hope back to humans, and it is enough to help them survive the Darkness and pray for the Sun's return. 

It can be elaborated on, of course, but there's a new myth.

And you can do that with any of the core myths.  It's like with music, you're creating riffs upon the core themes.  And sometimes you blend in a theme of your own because it's YOUR Glorantha too.

I'll also recommend @soltakss Secrets of Heroquesting book on Jonstown Compendium.  There's a treasure trove of ideas there in constructing myths/heroquests that may help free the thought processes.

[None]

22 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

First, I suggest that the myth-creation be a joint effort by GM and players.  That will help keep it constrained and not just be a treasure hunting expedition or game mechanic exploitation.  (And whatever the myth ends up being the GM is free to throw in other plot twists.)

Second, use the Runes of the deity as guidance for the gods.  What personality traits and characteristics are involved with the Runes.  (E.g. Lhankor Mhy has Truth and Stasis.  He keeps and retains knowledge.  He may be stubborn in withholding knowledge he's gained.  Or greedy for knowledge he doesn't have.  Those both fit.)

THis is a good suggestion, thank you. As for the first part. I think that's a pretty standard way to handle it. The more difficult part I would say ios to get the players to actively take part in the proccess beyond telling the GM what they want the heroquest to do. and then just sit that and mostly just agree with whatever the GM suggests.

18 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Then you've not really met the Earth goddess yet!  Look upon the face of Maran Gor, or the offspring of Ernalda, Babeester Gor.  Ernalda is very good at cursing, or withholding her blessings from those who displease her.

 

27 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

And... the problem with this is what?  You're in the gods world now.  And that sounds very much like Ernalda.

I know that and usually consider (most) of her kindness and compassion to be  a front (her giving birth to Babeester Gor purely out of spite, as I see it, is especially telling). I was just givng an example of one of the reasons why myth creation can feel troublesome and make players especially feel wary.

Personally I consider the bahaviour I just gave her to be perfectly in character. Although she would probably find some way to make herself look blameless for her own behaviour.

28 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'm not seeing the issue here.  You're dealing with the gods.  You learn something new about a god, it adds to your Cult Lore. 

It's getting that across to the players and make them dare to take creative liberties (or be creative at all and not have thn sit ther and say 'Uh, I don't nkow' and look to the GM for guidance).

I have personally had problems with situations where player who seem to feel that there are areas that they as players either aren't allowed to touch or don't have enogh knowledge to touch.

[jajagappa]

19 minutes ago, None said:

The more difficult part I would say ios to get the players to actively take part in the proccess beyond telling the GM what they want the heroquest to do. and then just sit that and mostly just agree with whatever the GM suggests.

That depends on the players.  Some will, some won't.  But that's true of any scenario.  I usually find myself as the primary "show runner" if you will in my campaigns.  And that's fine as long as I enjoy the storyline, and the players indicate they're enjoying what I produce. 

22 minutes ago, None said:

It's getting that across to the players and make them dare to take creative liberties (or be creative at all and not have thn sit ther and say 'Uh, I don't nkow' and look to the GM for guidance).

Sometimes it requires a "show, not tell" approach by the GM to lead them there.  Suddenly the world has gone from black-and-white to color, and they discover that they aren't "in Kansas anymore". 

Or, for those who still aren't sure, I liked some of the approaches taken in 13thAge Glorantha for "narrating" Runes.  Maybe have them roll on one of their own, or randomly choose 1-3 Runes from the basic set.  Think Tarot cards here.  This is the Rune that's your current condition, this the Rune that is opposing you (or someone representing that Rune), this the Rune you must use to overcome the opposition.  You can elaborate upon it, or let the players identify and describe what/who that Rune represents and see if they can determine why. 

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Think Tarot cards here.  This is the Rune that's your current condition, this the Rune that is opposing you (or someone representing that Rune), this the Rune you must use to overcome the opposition.  You can elaborate upon it, or let the players identify and describe what/who that Rune represents and see if they can determine why.

I like that.

Take a look at the various layouts for Tarot readings - The "Celtic Cross" is one of the most used:

1 - Centre card represents you -  or the god/dess.

2 - Crossed by .. what obstacle?

3 - Below is the basis for the querent (clarifying things??) background?

4 - Above is perhaps Aims/goals.

5 - To the left is the immediate past

6 - The right is the immediate future.

Then 4 cards in a row (often to the right, top to bottom) - first is the individual, and what they may (or may not) know about themselves that will help the situation. Then there is a known helper/aid in the project. Followed by an unknown (often hindrance). Finally, an expected outcome.

 

1 - Ernalda, Earth goddess as nourisher of the Earth (Fertility Rune)

2 - Death and Darkness (freezing come)

3 - the Earth is dying, the crops are dying, people are dying - what to do about it?

4 - need to nourish the earth somehow

5 - the Darkness and Cold has engulfed the earth in general, and is seeking to destroy Ernalda herself

6 - How to escape this situation (need to hide away? Or avoid the Darkness/Cold)

7 - Ernalda has other Runes to call upon - which ones are useful here?

8 - Ernalda has daughters, sisters, husband-protectors - how can she get them to help?

9 - The daughters/sisters/husband-protectors want something in return - what is it, can she get it? (are 8 & 9 have a loop for a while?)

10 - Obviously, the earth is rejuvenated.... how?

[soltakss]

On 4/7/2021 at 12:58 PM, None said:

Do any of you have a good idea on how to make players dare to invent their own heroquests? An issue I have with Glorantha is that it very easily feels like you have to know and possess a firm grasp of its myths and god-time stories to feel you can really make heroquests of your own. Or preferably, adapt something that already exists in canon.

Take a myth, break it down into sections, work out a little scenario for each section. that's about all it really takes.

On 4/7/2021 at 12:58 PM, None said:

Comming up with heroquests, not to mention doing so on the fly, and for players in particular, isn't always that easy.

I find it easy, but I have been doing it for a while.

On 4/7/2021 at 12:58 PM, None said:

Even though their charactes should know some to many secret myths about their god due to their cult lore skill and rolls that doesn't make it easier for the players. Especially for players that doesn't want to just convinentlysuddenly know a myth and heroquest that just so hsappens to be very useful and beneficial to their current goals and interests.

Why not?

Players might say "Surely there is a myth that covers what we are about to do?", find a myth and then apply it as a HeroQuest.

On 4/7/2021 at 12:58 PM, None said:

Its also not easy for the GM to supply each player with a comprehensive list of appropriate myths and heroquets eather, for a variety of reasons. Not to mention that I feel that doing so risks limiting the players far too much anyhow.

Yes, that takes a lot of work by the GM. Much better to get the players to do it.

On 4/7/2021 at 2:25 PM, None said:

Its also the wory that you you might create a myth create something that breaks character for the gods or one way, or another breaks immersion, or that the myths you just created might case issue you didn't think of at the moment.

So what?

People create myths all the while. I might have a myth about Orlanth that isn't in the RQ Rules, but it doesn't matter. A myth is just a story about what deities did in the God Time. The God Time is full of untold myths.

You should not restrict yourself to only the myths that have already been told.

Be creative, make stuff up. Here's a secret - All of Glorantha is made up ...

On 4/7/2021 at 2:25 PM, None said:

Le's say you've so far portrayed Ernalda as a truly benevolent goddess that would never let anyone suffer  through her actions unless absolutely nessecary, much less ever cause collateral damage, and would never do anything without a really good, unselfish reason.

Then you suddenly (be you player or GM) create a myth where she basically goes full Demeter on the entire world because one of her daughters didn't come hom at dinner and she's essentially blackmailing everyone to comply to her demands untill her daughter is back with her.

That is challenging the Players. They are happy in their little comfort zones, they know what Ernalda is and then you drop a bomb on them that challenges their core beliefs. That is a good thing.

On 4/7/2021 at 2:25 PM, None said:

Players must also deal with that the wory that the're inventing a myth that is just way to convenient for what they whant or need at the moment. (Yes, I know heroquetsts aren't something you just perform at the drop of a hat but that doesn't really change what I'm talking about.)

HeroQuests can be something you do at the drop of a hat. There are examples where this has happened.

Some GMs might be uncomfortable with Players creating convenient myths that fit a given situation. But, what is wrong with that? I don't have a problem with it, generally, but might ask them to think about the myth if it is obviously contrived.

it is much better, however, to use an existing myth. There are Stafford Library supplements with hundreds of myths that could be used as HeroQuests, however not everyone has access to them.

On 4/7/2021 at 2:49 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

And since 1990 I have no solution... Glorantha background is so "sacred" to me that my brain is frozen to create any heroquest.

How weird it is, as I am able to create and  adapt rules, imagine mundane story in glorantha, able to create myth for my own universes, but unable to "touch" the gloranthan myths

Nothing is sacred, everything changes.

There are different versions of all the stories of the deities. It is fine to change them, mess about with them or retell them.

On 4/7/2021 at 2:55 PM, None said:

Small myths aren't that muchof a problem, especially not for a GM but anything to huge that it might shake the setting so to speak is... you can easily get aprehensive about it, and for player its even worse.

What I do is to read the cult descriptions, take a sentence or two from the mythos and create a longer version of the myth.

If you create a myth that says that Orlanth is a Dragon and then perform it, you might find that it fails and fails badly, or you might find that it is difficult but succeeds. That is an example of a huge myth that might change the setting, but actually happened.

On 4/7/2021 at 3:41 PM, jajagappa said:

I'll also recommend @soltakss Secrets of Heroquesting book on Jonstown Compendium.  There's a treasure trove of ideas there in constructing myths/heroquests that may help free the thought processes.

Thanks!

How Humakt Learned to Grieve has some HeroQuests together with sections on how I turned the myths into HeroQuests, which might be helpful.

On 4/7/2021 at 3:53 PM, None said:

I know that and usually consider (most) of her kindness and compassion to be  a front (her giving birth to Babeester Gor purely out of spite, as I see it, is especially telling). I was just givng an example of one of the reasons why myth creation can feel troublesome and make players especially feel wary.

The trouble is, that is the wrong way to think about myths, if we are allowed to say that anything is "wrong".

Myths can build on what have gone before, and that is fine. However, many Gloranthan deities have multiple aspects and have done things that are seemingly out of character. Accepting that Orlanth abducted deities and fathered children on them makes some people feel uncomfortable, but the myths are there. I am sure that there are myths about how Uleria or Chalana Arroy did something nasty, for example.

On 4/7/2021 at 3:53 PM, None said:

It's getting that across to the players and make them dare to take creative liberties (or be creative at all and not have thn sit ther and say 'Uh, I don't nkow' and look to the GM for guidance).

I have personally had problems with situations where player who seem to feel that there are areas that they as players either aren't allowed to touch or don't have enogh knowledge to touch.

I generally have a HeroQuest of some sort within the first 5 or 10 sessions, to show that anyone can be a HeroQuestor.

My ideal Player is one who wants to do things that are unusual or strange.

 

[None]

59 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Why not?

Players might say "Surely there is a myth that covers what we are about to do?", find a myth and then apply it as a HeroQuest.

Sure, they can but herquesting can also feel like such a powerul and overwhelming tool that players get paralyzed.

For GMs the problem is (in my experience) the apprehension of messing with a world that you don't fully understand andthe need to go check the manual so to speak. (One of the reasons I usually prefer game systems that aren't tied to any setting.)

For players the troupble lie both in the above but it also kind of how players usually don't descide what is inside the treasure chest they just found, that's what the GM does. Playes can feel that getting to design their own heroquetsts borders into the feeling 'I want to lace thethings I want in there but it feels chap and powewrgamey to the extreme'.

59 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Some GMs might be uncomfortable with Players creating convenient myths that fit a given situation. But, what is wrong with that? I don't have a problem with it, generally, but might ask them to think about the myth if it is obviously contrived.

I'm more concerned with players themselves having troule with creating convenient myths that fit a given situation. Or that they feel they don't know enough to try and create a myth themselves.

 

---

Edit: While I'm asking for advice. Do any of you have aany ideas on how to improve on the 'Grazer Faction thatwant to overthrow the Feathered Horse Queen' idea I posted above?

Both as antagonist s but also as a possible player senario?

What are the greatest obstacles the faction have and what would they do in preparation? What do they need to actually accomplis it? Mythically/magically I mean.

I have a few ideas but its also mostly a an idea or a concept. Easpecially as I feel I don't understand the Feathered Horse Queen enough. Although I might be overestimating her relevance.

Edited April 9, 2021 by None

[None]

Another thing I've been wondering about and stugling with understanding is the Sunlance spell, or rather mechanical game balance reasons why it is one use for all yelmic initates except but rune priests while Thunderbolt isn't at all?

I've compared them several times and tried to figure out how Sunlance is so much more power tas to warant the cost but to me they feel roughly equal in power with Sunlance being a little bit more powerful but also a bit less flexible aor limited in utility.

I was wondering if anyone of you who are good with the crunch could explain this to me?

Or is the reason not an issue of gamplay balance at all but rather the fact that the Yelm in the core book is Grazelander Yelm?

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Here's a secret - All of Glorantha is made up ...

WTF!!! Blasphemy!

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, None said:

For players the troupble lie both in the above but it also kind of how players usually don't descide what is inside the treasure chest they just found, that's what the GM does. Playes can feel that getting to design their own heroquetsts borders into the feeling 'I want to lace thethings I want in there but it feels chap and powewrgamey to the extreme'.

I'm more concerned with players themselves having troule with creating convenient myths that fit a given situation. Or that they feel they don't know enough to try and create a myth themselves.

A) they don't have to get everything they want. You, as the GM, can say it's not appropriate.

B) most of the time, the rewards will already be well-known before going in. That's the point of a HQ.

C) Make the players work for the knowledge. Not just roll Cult Lore. I'd suggest a couple of quests in the real world just to find all the relevant bits of the myth. Remember, going in half prepared is a good way to die! Or worse!!

D) Many HQs require a sacrifice. If you desperately want those sandals or swords, maybe you have to give something up in return! At the very least, we'd normally expect that even being able to get onto the Heroplane is going to take a fair bit of support from a temple's community - and that support shouldn't come cheap. And, even once they're there, if they don't pass the stations fully and correctly, they may not get that reward they were after... So, adding those last 2 points together - getting the temple support to go on one Heroquest may not be cheap... it's going to be quite costly if the HQ is 'failed', and they need/want to do it again!

[None]

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

A) they don't have to get everything they want. You, as the GM, can say it's not appropriate.

B) most of the time, the rewards will already be well-known before going in. That's the point of a HQ.

I'm talking about players beeing aprehensive about creating and comming up with heroquests themelves, for a number of reasons, not about reining them in.

[French Desperate WindChild]

23 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

C) Make the players work for the knowledge. Not just roll Cult Lore. I'd suggest a couple of quests in the real world just to find all the relevant bits of the myth. Remember, going in half prepared is a good way to die! Or worse!!

D) Many HQs require a sacrifice. If you desperately want those sandals or swords, maybe you have to give something up in return! At the very least, we'd normally expect that even being able to get onto the Heroplane is going to take a fair bit of support from a temple's community - and that support shouldn't come cheap. And, even once they're there, if they don't pass the stations fully and correctly, they may not get that reward they were after... So, adding those last 2 points together - getting the temple support to go on one Heroquest may not be cheap... it's going to be quite costly if the HQ is 'failed', and they need/want to do it again!

Seems to me very important topics to keep in mind