Yelm, runes and spells and heroquests

[French Desperate WindChild]

47 minutes ago, None said:

Sunlance being a little bit more powerful but also a bit less flexible aor limited in utility

mmm with sunspear, you can destroy a shield wall with 3POW :  5 people in 1 rank = 1meter around the target.

If now you face some phalanx organization (several ranks) you can kill 5+5+5 = 15 people. Only with 3POW

You are right, in a duel, thunderbold seems more or less the same.

Both have weakness : need sun light or cloud; armor vs countermagic

but... in a battle how awesome is sunspear.

55 minutes ago, None said:

Or is the reason not an issue of gamplay balance at all but rather the fact that the Yelm in the core book is Grazelander Yelm

in my previous version (one century ago) that was already the fact that sunspear is one use for initiate (and there was no mention of grazelander at this time in the cult book)

 

A background explanation I have (but that my personal view) is "you don't disturb your emperor when you are a slave (not initiate) or a servants(initiate). So you respectfully don't use its powerful magic except to implore its grace to save you. Power is the proof you are the master (priest) not the servant"

of course slave / servant is not the status in mundane world (there is probably 0 servant initiate of Yelm, only noble) that is just to explain the scale of value i use.

 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

mmm with sunspear, you can destroy a shield wall with 3POW :  5 people in 1 rank = 1meter around the target.

With sunspear you might incapacitate or kill three people in phalanx formation. Based on an average roll of 14 and a 1-3 AP  you would incapacitate the average person.

Five people in phalanx formation in 2m is unlikely. Have a look at these dimensions, they're roman but work well enough:

https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/gb_army/the-spacing-of-individual-soldiers/

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

If now you face some phalanx organization (several ranks) you can kill 5+5+5 = 15 people. Only with 3POW

Likewise having a rear line so close seems unlikely. Those fighting troops likely to use Sunspear would be well aware of its tactics and place the second line further back, using longer spears (RQG page 223).

Having said that, Grazelander Sun Lords would likely use it to punch through a phalanx for a charge, but not if the row behind could set spears (pikes) for a charge (RQG page 220).

[Kloster]

With the spacing given by your link, that means a Sunspear can reach 4 or 5 persons when cast at a phalanx, which seems correct. If I remember well, Macedonian spacing is wider than roman one to allow for longer spears, but the classical greek phalanx was much tighter (similar to what I imagine Orlanthi shield walls to be), with very close ranks to allow for push. In that last case, the Sunspear would be a formidable weapon.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Five people in phalanx formation in 2m is unlikely. Have a look at these dimensions, they're roman but work well enough:

well I am not enough specialist 🙂

I just evaluate shield size (or maybe vicking movies)

Of course it was for a static formation, like in your link. 

in a charge or any movment, it would not be possible to be so closed I agree

 

Quote

Three foot spacing for the files would give each man 0.48m

 

and same for the 3 ranks, thinking your point it seems not possible I agree.

I was thinking about turtle formation, but that is not a phallanx, and I m not sure there is any turtle formation in glorantha (more easy to destroy than irl, spell, gnome, giant...)

 

so yes, I change my view :

5 if they are in a static wall  ; 3 if not ;  1 if storm  bull

 

 

[Darius West]

On 4/1/2021 at 8:50 PM, None said:

About Yelm in the core rules of Runequest Roleplaying in Glorantha. There's one thing I don't understand.Why is Yelm's runes marked as [Sky/Fire, Fertiity, Death] and why does he only have one Fire/Sky Rune en though Orlanth and Ernalda have two Storm or Earth runes respectively and Yelm is clearly shown to have the [Sun/Sky, Stasis, Mastery] runes in Guide to Glorantha?

Read the Yelm entry more carefully.  The RQG rules are not for the Yelm of Dara Happa, but for "Sun Horse" aka Yu-Kargzant of the Grazerlanders.  In the forthcoming RQ:Gods of Glorantha supplement, Yelm definitely has his two Fire/Sky runes, and all the deficiencies you have correctly addressed and questioned will be far closer to your expectations.

[None]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

mmm with sunspear, you can destroy a shield wall with 3POW :  5 people in 1 rank = 1meter around the target.

If now you face some phalanx organization (several ranks) you can kill 5+5+5 = 15 people. Only with 3POW

You are right, in a duel, thunderbold seems more or less the same.

Both have weakness : need sun light or cloud; armor vs countermagic

but... in a battle how awesome is sunspear.

Ah, I hadn't cosidered organized battle of that kind much less shiled walls and the like.

Aren't they quite rare though for the typical player party to encounter? I can't remember I, (be it as a GM or as a player) ever saw one appear in play. Hm, well, maybe once.

Still you don't usually ambusg organized armies, much less armies in battle formation how often that benefit will become relevant. Usually when you fight enemies thiey will be spread out enough that a one meter diameter area attack centered on the target is worthless as an area attack.

Unless they're clustering on youone of your allies in which case the area efect is a hindrance. Meanwhile Thunderbolt can increase the number of targets by one for every extra Runepoint.

Something I due to the above points consider to be somewhat more useful on the whole.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

A background explanation I have (but that my personal view) is "you don't disturb your emperor when you are a slave (not initiate) or a servants(initiate). So you respectfully don't use its powerful magic except to implore its grace to save you. Power is the proof you are the master (priest) not the servant"

of course slave / servant is not the status in mundane world (there is probably 0 servant initiate of Yelm, only noble) that is just to explain the scale of value i use.

Uh, see how you think but I feel I have to point out that theones who can use Sunspear are Initates or Rune Lords (and Rune Priests who can use it withouytt it beeing one-use). Non-initiates defenitely can't (unless you're a Yelmalion High Prirest).

45 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Read the Yelm entry more carefully.  The RQG rules are not for the Yelm of Dara Happa, but for "Sun Horse" aka Yu-Kargzant of the Grazerlanders.  In the forthcoming RQ:Gods of Glorantha supplement, Yelm definitely has his two Fire/Sky runes, and all the deficiencies you have correctly addressed and questioned will be far closer to your expectations.

As has been pointed out to me several times already but thanks anyway. 🙂

Edited April 9, 2021 by None

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, None said:

Another thing I've been wondering about and stugling with understanding is the Sunlance spell, or rather mechanical game balance reasons why it is one use for all yelmic initates except but rune priests while Thunderbolt isn't at all?

I've compared them several times and tried to figure out how Sunlance is so much more power tas to warant the cost but to me they feel roughly equal in power with Sunlance being a little bit more powerful but also a bit less flexible aor limited in utility.

I was wondering if anyone of you who are good with the crunch could explain this to me?

Or is the reason not an issue of gamplay balance at all but rather the fact that the Yelm in the core book is Grazelander Yelm?

Mythology.

The Emperor of all was fairly static and unyielding.. And powerful.

The god of storms is flexible, and thus capable of change)-ing/adding targets).

Obviously, mythologically, storm is more powerful, because he killed the Sun.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

mythologically, storm is more powerful, because he killed the Sun.

Or, mythically the Sun is more powerful because only he can resurrect the world at the end of the year. 🙂

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Or, mythically the Sun is more powerful because only he can resurrect the world at the end of the year. 🙂

But but but... Not only did storm kill the Sun, but if it wasn't for storm, the Sun would still be stuck down in hell... And no "resurrection".

[None]

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Obviously, mythologically, storm is more powerful, because he killed the Sun.

Do I hear your 80% Storm rune talking here (and your 80% Truth rune failinig)? Clearly you're mistaken . The sun didn't kill the sun, the storm killed could only Murharzarm (and ujustly so) as the Sun was beyond him. 😇

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But but but... Not only did storm kill the Sun, but if it wasn't for storm, the Sun would still be stuck down in hell... And no "resurrection".

The Storm only came to beg for forivness because the Sun demaned his pressence. Afte that the Sun resurected himef and the world. After his penance the Storm was only a simple bystander, really. 😀

----

Right, runes. There are a few spells that aren't listed with a rune in the core book. All of them say the rune depends on the cult. With spells like summon elemental, or command snake, or command hawk its pretty clear which rune you're suposed to use but then there is the Shield spell.

I'd assume that you can use any of your gods runes, no problem there, but what happens ewhen you get it through an associated cult (the only cuilt I can remember right now ios Ernalda's cult as it gets shiled from Orlanth Adventurous, but it could matter for more cults than hers). How would you rule this?

Personally I'm leaning towards needing one of the runes of the associated cult but at the same time, Shield appears in a lot of cults and doesn't have a clear affiliation with any rune. (Unless the idea is that each cult with the Shield spell actually has their own distinctly different version that accomlishes the same effect in different ways).

 

Actually, as I'm writing this, I feel I'm leaning more and more towards you needing to use the asocate cults runes but I'm leaving this question here anyway to see what thoughts all of you have on the matter.

 

[soltakss]

On 4/9/2021 at 9:13 AM, None said:

Sure, they can but herquesting can also feel like such a powerul and overwhelming tool that players get paralyzed.

I can understand that.

The best way to get more familiar with HeroQuesting is by doing it, by going on HeroQuests.

Sure, some people think that HeroQuesting is for powerful heroes and nobody else should do it, and that it a reasonable point of view.

On 4/9/2021 at 9:13 AM, None said:

For GMs the problem is (in my experience) the apprehension of messing with a world that you don't fully understand andthe need to go check the manual so to speak. (One of the reasons I usually prefer game systems that aren't tied to any setting.)

Yes, and that can be a problem.

For me, a HeroQuest is a myth overlaid onto reality. Anything more than that is just window-dressing or rules to allow you to do the HeroQuest. 

What rules are needed on a HeroQuest? None over the normal rules of the games system you are using. I say that, having written a set of rules for HeroQuesting, sure they are nice to have but are not essential. 

What you need for HeroQuesting is a mindset. 

Someone who is really set in the rules probably won't enjoy HeroQuesting:

• GM: OK, you reach a thirty-metre wide chasm and need to get over it, what do you do?
• Player: I jump over it.
• GM: No, it is too wide to jump over.
• Player: I try to fly, then.
• GM: No, you don't have any magic to fly with.
• Player: OK, I throw a rope across the chasm and climb across.
• GM: The rope is not long enough and you don't have a Throw Rope skill

as opposed to:

• GM: OK, you reach a thirty-metre wide chasm and need to get over it, what do you do?
• Player: I jump over it.
• GM: How?
• Player: Orlanth's strength fills my muscles, his wind blows me across and I use his powers of Movement to cross the chasm.
• GM: OK, make a Jumping roll, augmented by your Air/Storm and Movement Runes.

Which is more fun?

On 4/9/2021 at 9:13 AM, None said:

I'm more concerned with players themselves having troule with creating convenient myths that fit a given situation. Or that they feel they don't know enough to try and create a myth themselves.

Again, it's a mindset.

freeing yourself to be able to do things and change things using HeroQuesting is liberating. The HeroQuest game rules helped me with this, as Player contribution to the game was a core part of those rules.

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by soltakss

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But but but... Not only did storm kill the Sun, but if it wasn't for storm, the Sun would still be stuck down in hell... And no "resurrection".

We all know that from within Hell, Yelm asserted the power of Justice throughout the world and summoned his murderers to Atone for their deeds.  The Rebel Gods made obeisance and accepted that they could not make Life without his presence.  Only so was the Compromise achieved and the world reborn with the rebirth of the Living Sun.

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

We all know that from within Hell, Yelm asserted the power of Justice throughout the world and summoned his murderers to Atone for their deeds.  The Rebel Gods made obeisance and accepted that they could not make Life without his presence.  Only so was the Compromise achieved and the world reborn with the rebirth of the Living Sun.

We all know that , since she was in the Hell, Orlanth missed too much Ernalda and decided to fix the world.

When Yelm and Orlanth meet,

Yelm was convinced by his concubine that darkness, the "under" world is not the best place to lead the world

Orlanth was convinced by her wife that the world cannot be a good place for their children and tribes without day and law

Then Orlanth and Yelm make peace

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

We all know that from within Hell, Yelm asserted the power of Justice throughout the world and summoned his murderers to Atone for their deeds.  The Rebel Gods made obeisance and accepted that they could not make Life without his presence.  Only so was the Compromise achieved and the world reborn with the rebirth of the Living Sun.

What Heat-aid have you been drinking??? 

 

😄

[Shiningbrow]

The above argument about Yelm/Storm is actually handy for the thread, as it shows how the same basic myths can be seen from very different angles, and have very different stations and paths for HQers.

 

Q: anyone have any ideas how the other gods see this? We know the Darkness gods weren't too happy, but how do they see the other details? (Orlanth slaying Yelm, the LBQ?) Or the Sea or Earth gods??

And, these differences in the myths see where you can all have fun, as cultists in the same HQ party could accidentally invoke different aspects (or have different interpretations of the stations). And that's without intentionally changing things.

And, being a only myths, none of them are wrong! 

I also second buying @soltakss book! @None, I think you'd like reading the bits about changing the myths, and the consequences of that! It makes for more fun and hilarity 🤣

Edited April 11, 2021 by Shiningbrow

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or the Sea or Earth gods

We all know that, the sun was killed by the storm but no one killed Magasta our father

When the wind was fleeing chaos to seek protection from the Sun and the darkness, the Sea remained and flooded Chaos

Magasta is the most powerful.

He was not killed like Earth or Sun, He never fled his kingdom like Darkness or Storm.

 

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

We all know that , since she was in the Hell, Orlanth missed too much Ernalda and decided to fix the world.

Interesting, I had never thought of it in that way. so, Orlanth went to get Ernalda back and, in doing so, brought Yelm back as well. another unintended consequence of his actions.

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

We all know that from within Hell, Yelm asserted the power of Justice throughout the world and summoned his murderers to Atone for their deeds.  The Rebel Gods made obeisance and accepted that they could not make Life without his presence.  Only so was the Compromise achieved and the world reborn with the rebirth of the Living Sun.

What Heat-aid have you been drinking???

An accurate one.

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

We know the Darkness gods weren't too happy, but how do they see the other details? (Orlanth slaying Yelm, the LBQ?)

Orlanth slaying Yelm is completely out of their knowledge/existence. The first they knew about it was when Yelm crashed into Wonderhome, burning legions of UzUz and forcing them to leave for the cruel surface world.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Interesting, I had never thought of it in that way. so, Orlanth went to get Ernalda back and, in doing so, brought Yelm back as well. another unintended consequence of his actions.

absolutly I think that , from an earth cult perspective, Orlanth is only seen as a "tool" used by Ernalda

 

I m pretty sure (as @jajagappa proposed solar version) that each elemental cult is convinced than the most powerful god(dess) is their own god leader (Orlanth , Yelm, Ernalda, Magasta, Kyger Litor)

Of course they are all wrong, the most powerful god is the most despised, the trickster.

 

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

so, Orlanth went to get Ernalda back and, in doing so, brought Yelm back as well. another unintended consequence of his actions.

There are early (old) versions, IIRC from Greg's Harmast writings, where the quest was called the Lifebringer's Quest, not the Lightbringer's Quest.  And the focus may well have been on restoring Ernalda (or perhaps both Ernalda and Yelm).

[davecake]

On 4/1/2021 at 5:50 PM, None said:

What's even wierder is that you don't need the Death or Fertility rune for any of Yelm's spells. They can all be cast with hte Sky/Fire Rune.

He has many associated cults that use the Death or Fertility runes, though. Yelm's power comes from his position as ruler - and he has access to a lot of good magic from associated cults. Though Yu-Kargzant and Yelm are the same god in the core, God Learner, ways, in practice the writeup in the rulebook is more or less the Yu-Kargzant writeup in a Grazer context - in practice, Pentan Yu-Kargzant is somewhat different, and Dara Happen Yelm very different, because of the cultural context that determines things like associated cults, social role, skills taught, even if their core spells are similar. 

 

On 4/1/2021 at 6:30 PM, metcalph said:

So while the Grazer Yelm has fewer rune spells than the other great gods, his strength is in access to spirit magics (through Golden Bow).

Yes. Though probably a bit weaker than the variety of spirit magics accessible to Golden Bow among the Pentans. 

[davecake]

On 4/1/2021 at 5:50 PM, None said:

How come there are no spells associated with the Stasis Rune in the core book?

Its the little rune that couldn't, yeah. About 80% or more of all Stasis magic ever written up seems to be Mostali magic. Even when a cult is given the rune, it is often tentative or temporary, and does not actually come with magic (Lhankor Mhy, Yelm)

[davecake]

On 4/10/2021 at 4:32 PM, soltakss said:

Someone who is really set in the rules probably won't enjoy HeroQuesting:

• GM: OK, you reach a thirty-metre wide chasm and need to get over it, what do you do?
• Player: I jump over it.
• GM: No, it is too wide to jump over.
• Player: I try to fly, then.
• GM: No, you don't have any magic to fly with.
• Player: OK, I throw a rope across the chasm and climb across.
• GM: The rope is not long enough and you don't have a Throw Rope skill

as opposed to:

• GM: OK, you reach a thirty-metre wide chasm and need to get over it, what do you do?
• Player: I jump over it.
• GM: How?
• Player: Orlanth's strength fills my muscles, his wind blows me across and I use his powers of Movement to cross the chasm.
• GM: OK, make a Jumping roll, augmented by your Air/Storm and Movement Runes.

Which is more fun?

I prefer somewhere in between. The game has a Leap spell. Most Orlanthi should have it. Let them use augments or other heroquesty boosts to enhance their Leap. Or just make the chasm a bit smaller if you want them to be able to leap it. 

[davecake]

On 4/5/2021 at 1:58 AM, jajagappa said:

If you can't prove your connection to and descent from Yelm, you're not going to be recognized by Yelm as one of his and be able to establish a Yelm cult. 

Yep. If you can't prove your descent from Yelm, you are going to have real problems. A female hero quester could seduce a minor Sky deity or hero known to be descended from Yelm, and then let her child found a Yelm cult (HonEel did something similar for different reasons), but it is very much a great heroic thing to found a new lineage of the Yelm cult. And it appears to be a universal Yelm cult thing, not a Dara Happen cultural one. 

On 4/6/2021 at 12:34 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

that means: you can create a site (p284), or very exceptionnaly a shrine, if you have enough lay member followers (aka, soldiers, servants and wifes from associated / friend cults)

Yes! And this is how the Yelm cult generally operates in Dara Happa or most of Pent, though in the Pure Horse Tribes including the Grazers, the majority of men are Yelm initiates, 

[None]

On 4/11/2021 at 4:52 AM, Shiningbrow said:

The above argument about Yelm/Storm is actually handy for the thread, as it shows how the same basic myths can be seen from very different angles, and have very different stations and paths for HQers.

This is actually one of the reasins I'm a little sad there aren't more canon heroquests (from all of the pantheons) and ones that intersect with each other. It is fun to try and puzzle out ways to subvert or inovate with established heroquests (it is obviously less fun to do so withones you've just designed) and their diferent versions to se waht you can do.

Like hijacking the Lightbringer quest into making Orlanth subject to Yelms authority essentially erailing it into the Yelmic version. Sadly I don't think I know any other examples. 😞

On 4/11/2021 at 4:52 AM, Shiningbrow said:

I also second buying @soltakss book! @None, I think you'd like reading the bits about changing the myths, and the consequences of that! It makes for more fun and hilarity 🤣

I'll consider it.

On 4/11/2021 at 6:53 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Magasta is the most powerful.

How do you even initiate into Magasta?

On 4/11/2021 at 10:09 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

absolutly I think that , from an earth cult perspective, Orlanth is only seen as a "tool" used by Ernalda

That's pretty much how I vew it. That said, I also think there are many earth priestesses and even earth temples that don't look at it like that. Or at least not entirely, things can vary..

That does bring up an interesting question. Are there branshes or individual temples of all these cults that have 'heretical' interpretations or vies of their god, so to speak?

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Yu-Kargzant writeup in a Grazer context - in practice, Pentan Yu-Kargzant is somewhat different, and Dara Happen Yelm very different, because of the cultural context that determines things like associated cults, social role, skills taught, even if their core spells are similar. 

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Yes. Though probably a bit weaker than the variety of spirit magics accessible to Golden Bow among the Pentans. 

Oh, are there any knowledge about the Pentan Yu-Kargzant and how their Yelmic worship differ from the Pure Horse people's?

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Its the little rune that couldn't, yeah. About 80% or more of all Stasis magic ever written up seems to be Mostali magic. Even when a cult is given the rune, it is often tentative or temporary, and does not actually come with magic (Lhankor Mhy, Yelm)

I've gathered as much and it makes me a bit sad. I can definitely immagine spells that invoke the principle that the Stasis rune is suposed to represent. I think it has a lot more potential than it has been given.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I prefer somewhere in between. The game has a Leap spell. Most Orlanthi should have it. Let them use augments or other heroquesty boosts to enhance their Leap. Or just make the chasm a bit smaller if you want them to be able to leap it. 

I think I agree there. If you don't have the apptopriate rune magic then obviously you aren't very good at invoking that aspect of your deity.

I would probably be willing to waive the rune point cost for spells while in a heroquast though, as long as the questers properly portray, behave and act like their gods.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Yep. If you can't prove your descent from Yelm, you are going to have real problems. A female hero quester could seduce a minor Sky deity or hero known to be descended from Yelm, and then let her child found a Yelm cult (HonEel did something similar for different reasons), but it is very much a great heroic thing to found a new lineage of the Yelm cult. And it appears to be a universal Yelm cult thing, not a Dara Happen cultural one. 

Thats interesting considering how patriarchal Solar worship and the Yelmic cult seems to be. (Or maybe thats more of a Dara Happan thing.)

If you're male and not descended from Yelm you're effectively out of luck. If you're female you might not have been able to initite into Yelm under any circumstances but you can start a new Yelmic lineage.

Although, if you're going to seduce a Sky deity why go for one of Yelms descendants and not Yelm himself? Aside from the increased difficlty I mean.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

On 4/5/2021 at 6:34 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

that means: you can create a site (p284), or very exceptionnaly a shrine, if you have enough lay member followers (aka, soldiers, servants and wifes from associated / friend cults)

Yes! And this is how the Yelm cult generally operates in Dara Happa or most of Pent, though in the Pure Horse Tribes including the Grazers, the majority of men are Yelm initiates, 

I've been meaning to comment on what @French Desperate WindChildsaid here but its been slipping my mind.

I wasn't aware that you could become a lay member of Yelm as a woman. Or without beeing descended of Yelm.

[Shiningbrow]

27 minutes ago, None said:

I wasn't aware that you could become a lay member of Yelm as a woman. Or without beeing descended of Yelm.

"Lay Member" is barely a thing. Throw a priest some coins and sat "Yelm is great", yay, you're a Lay Member.

No-one can really stop you from worshipping a god. But you'll never learn the secrets.