Yelm, runes and spells and heroquests

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

"Lay Member" is barely a thing. Throw a priest some coins and sat "Yelm is great", yay, you're a Lay Member.

However becoming a Lay member of Yelm is a lot more involved. Becoming a lay member of Yelm the Youth (aka Yelm the Hunter, Yelm the Wheat Bringer, Yelm the Harbinger, Yelm the Provider) costs a Wheel and a point of permanent POW (and you must be a decendant). No Rune magic and a few spirit spells at half price, tithe 1%, attend HH days. There are no gender limitations in the cult.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, None said:

How do you even initiate into Magasta?

as windchild ? I wouldn't try 😛

probably some human communities are able to, but my words were for any communities, not only humans: few ludochs would say that Yelm is the best.

 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, None said:

How do you even initiate into Magasta?

Most coastal settlements have shrines to Magasta, and there are those humans who initiate into the mysteries of the Sea.  Often this is more propitiatory worship, such as by sea-going fishermen or sailors to ward off drowning. 

3 hours ago, None said:

I can definitely immagine spells that invoke the principle that the Stasis rune is suposed to represent. I think it has a lot more potential than it has been given

You'll find more Stasis rune spells listed in the Red Book of Magic.  Not a huge number but there are some.  It's one of the Runes for most city gods, for gods of crafts (hence Mostal, but also the Ten Sons and Servants of Lodril), for the Pole Star (i.e. the stability of the Sky Dome), and a few others. 

But mythically, the Spike, the greatest creation of Order was destroyed by Chaos.  And it's always difficult to maintain Stasis and Order against the powers of Time.

3 hours ago, None said:

This is actually one of the reasins I'm a little sad there aren't more canon heroquests (from all of the pantheons) and ones that intersect with each other. It is fun to try and puzzle out ways to subvert or inovate with established heroquests

We'll see more of how all the pantheons interact in the upcoming Gods of Glorantha book.  There's only so much that can be fit into the core rules.

[None]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Most coastal settlements have shrines to Magasta, and there are those humans who initiate into the mysteries of the Sea.  Often this is more propitiatory worship, such as by sea-going fishermen or sailors to ward off drowning. 

Not exactly what I meant but I immagine it would be dificult to truly initiate into  Magasta unles you breath water and live inside the Ocean.

Makes me wonder about Magasa's temprament and personality.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But mythically, the Spike, the greatest creation of Order was destroyed by Chaos.  And it's always difficult to maintain Stasis and Order against the powers of Time.

We really need to do something abpout this quick -fix called time.

It figures that anything Orlanth was inolved in would be half-baked.😛

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

We'll see more of how all the pantheons interact in the upcoming Gods of Glorantha book.  There's only so much that can be fit into the core rules.

Yes,l I know, but I doubt there'll be that many myths. There are more important things to include, not only from a mechanical standpoint.

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

as windchild ? I wouldn't try 😛

probably some human communities are able to, but my words were for any communities, not only humans: few ludochs would say that Yelm is the best.

 

If you want to get to Magasta you're going to have to be Blue People Orlanthi aka "Helerites" (not all of whom are actually Water rune people).

Heler's straddling the line between pantheons is what will enable you to approach Cthul- I mean Magasta. He's got movement, double Water, and Death runes, and Heler is Change and Water.

[None]

12 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Heler's straddling the line between pantheons is what will enable you to approach Cthul- I mean Magasta. He's got movement, double Water, and Death runes, and Heler is Change and Water.

Sounds friendly. Isn't the personality and nature of Water to be unpredictably fickle and voilatile?

[French Desperate WindChild]

47 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

If you want to get to Magasta you're going to have to be Blue People Orlanthi aka "Helerites" (not all of whom are actually Water rune people).

Heler's straddling the line between pantheons is what will enable you to approach Cthul- I mean Magasta. He's got movement, double Water, and Death runes, and Heler is Change and Water.

I m not sure. Does Mac Thlugasta (a scottish version of Magasta ?) consider Heler as a friend or a traitor ?

I m talking about Helering and Seafolk after Time not what happen in the first ages of godtime.

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, None said:

We really need to do something abpout this quick -fix called time.

It figures that anything Orlanth was inolved in would be half-baked.😛

Given Orlanth has Movement, it's not surprising Stasis took a back seat in the creation of Time.

[davecake]

7 hours ago, None said:

Oh, are there any knowledge about the Pentan Yu-Kargzant and how their Yelmic worship differ from the Pure Horse people's?

The Pentan Yu-Kargzant worship mostly IS the Pure Horse Tribe. So they are the original culture the Grazers descend from - men worship Yelm as Yu-Kargzant, shamans are Golden Bow tradition, women worship Dendara as La-Ungariant, and they also revere Hyalor Horsebreaker and Hippoi. And they uses horses for everything, which isn't very practical, but magically important. Their shamans also often use the ascetic traditions that became the basis of Sheng's magic, and I think probably still have a lot of lingering adherents of Sheng's system (which combined that asceticism with a harsh version of Kralorelan mysticism). I think they also have some better access to a wider range of light and sky magic, and some other shamanic magic, than the Grazers do, but that is largely because the Grazers live in a landscape dominated by Storm and Earth worshippers - on the other hand, the Grazers have an easier life of it because many practical problems can be dealt with by getting the vendref to do it, and have access to more powerful Earth magic via the FHQ. 

But that is only one tribe of the 10 in Pent. Most solar tribes have a small percentage of Yu-Kargzant initiates at best, probably small clans among the tribes, the majority of the tribe worships Kargzant (effectively Yelmalio with all the phalanxes replaced with cavalry, mostly light cavalry horse archery, and no gifts and geases) and Eiritha as cattle goddess, and herd cattle, and also revere Hippoi and Hyalor. Yu-Kargzant is revered in Kargzant ceremonies with that hereditary minority acting as a priest caste, so Kargzant worshippers have access to a little Yelmic magic (just as Yelmalio does). They mix in a fair few other light gods, especially Polaris as a major fighting god (again, though, as a cavalry god rather than a phalanx god). Their shamanic tradition is much less focussed on Golden Bow (which still requires hereditary Yu-Kargzant lineage drawn from the Pure Horse clans), and more varied, and particularly includes ancestor worship and star captains that are tribal ancestors. A few other weird cults have drifted in as minority practices here and there, including some worship of the Blood Sun, and probably some lingering adherents to Sheng's harsh asceticism. 

And of course there is the substantial minority, 25%, of Pentans that are the Storm Tribes, still following the traditional Pentan/Yelmic social system, but with worship of Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant and other Sky gods replaced with the Storm gods, Orlanth, Humakt, Storm Bull and Gagarth. We still don't know much about them, but they sure raise a lot of interesting questions. I'm sure they still have Eiritha as their most common womens deity, but not sure who the average male rider worships. They still have a lot of ancestor worship and tribal ancestors. 

[davecake]

19 hours ago, David Scott said:

However becoming a Lay member of Yelm is a lot more involved. Becoming a lay member of Yelm the Youth (aka Yelm the Hunter, Yelm the Wheat Bringer, Yelm the Harbinger, Yelm the Provider) costs a Wheel and a point of permanent POW (and you must be a decendant). No Rune magic and a few spirit spells at half price, tithe 1%, attend HH days. There are no gender limitations in the cult.

It's basically an acknowledgement of having the right lineage. In many places in Dara Happa it is equivalent to being acknowledged as a full Citizen of the city (though it is a lot easier to become a Half Citizen, which carries many of the same benefits). The interesting thing is it really is initiation in a magical sense - the point of POW that would be sacrificed normally at initiation - just the real responsibilities and benefits haven't started yet. I think in Dara Happa, this is a kind of Bar Mitzvah for the ruling families, a ceremonial acknowledgement but before true adult responsibilities or active cult membership. I think that it is so socially important that even sons who are not expected to take any active role in the work of being a warrior-noble ruler (physically uninclined later sons, ardent Lunars, decadent dilettantes and confirmed members of the Drones Club (thanks Nick), and so on) and never become a full initiate will still go to the effort of becoming a lay member as a matter of course - it proves their membership of the elite rulership club, and is important for their descendants and social status. 

The small number of lay members, even if they might magically count as initiates, does not prevent Yelm from having many Great Temples, of course, as the majority of all the people in Pelorian society are in associated cults of Yelm and participate in major Holy Day ceremonies. 

David, what is your source for the 'no gender restrictions'? Yelm in its Dara Happan form has always been presumed to be as gender restricted as they get AFAIK. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by davecake

[davecake]

On 4/11/2021 at 12:53 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

We all know that, the sun was killed by the storm but no one killed Magasta our father

When the wind was fleeing chaos to seek protection from the Sun and the darkness, the Sea remained and flooded Chaos

Magasta is the most powerful.

He was not killed like Earth or Sun, He never fled his kingdom like Darkness or Storm.

The best way available to us as players to resolve these disputes is a playing Gods War. 

[None]

40 minutes ago, davecake said:

The Pentan Yu-Kargzant worship mostly IS the Pure Horse Tribe. So they are the original culture the Grazers descend from - men worship Yelm as Yu-Kargzant, shamans are Golden Bow tradition, women worship Dendara as La-Ungariant, and they also revere Hyalor Horsebreaker and Hippoi.

42 minutes ago, davecake said:

Their shamans also often use the ascetic traditions that became the basis of Sheng's magic, and I think probably still have a lot of lingering adherents of Sheng's system (which combined that asceticism with a harsh version of Kralorelan mysticism). I think they also have some better access to a wider range of light and sky magic, and some other shamanic magic, than the Grazers do, but that is largely because the Grazers live in a landscape dominated by Storm and Earth worshippers - on the other hand, the Grazers have an easier life of it because many practical problems can be dealt with by getting the vendref to do it, and have access to more powerful Earth magic via the FHQ.

 Imagine if a clan of Pentan Pure horse suddenly appeard in the Grazer Lands of Dragon Pass. That could be interesting.

39 minutes ago, davecake said:

including some worship of the Blood Sun

Is that another name for Shargash?

43 minutes ago, davecake said:

And of course there is the substantial minority, 25%, of Pentans that are the Storm Tribes, still following the traditional Pentan/Yelmic social system, but with worship of Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant and other Sky gods replaced with the Storm gods, Orlanth, Humakt, Storm Bull and Gagarth.

(Bolding mine)

That sounds like a wiedr cmbination, and Gargath? Isn't he esentially the god of those that have been thrown out of the community?

 

20 minutes ago, davecake said:

The small number of lay members, even if they might magically count as initiates, does not prevent Yelm from having many Great Temples, of course, as the majority of all the people in Pelorian society are in associated cults of Yelm and participate in major Holy Day ceremonies. 

Yes it feels like, if you want to begin organozed Yelmic worship in a new area, you really need to bring and pull in those associated cults. This makes the Grazelanders into a very unusual exception in many ways.

[davecake]

On 4/3/2021 at 11:49 PM, None said:

Ah, that means that an interested Grazer Yelmite could so to speak discover the Yelmic subcult of Yelmalio. That's areally interesting way to handle it but one important question then is. Culd such a Yelm worshiper use a Yelmlio shrine or temple to regain rune points as if worshiping at a Yelm shrine or temple?

They regain Yelm cult rune points as if worshipping at an associated cult ceremony. So, some, but not as good as if they were worshipping at a Yelm cult ceremony. 

But then, they could probably do that before, if they understood that Yelmalio is the same as Kargzant (which is the cult that any Grazer man unlikely enough to not have the right lineage to worship Yu-Kargzant would be in). Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant are always acknowledged as associated cults by the Pure Horse Tribes - they basically understand the myth of Yelm returning to the world as Kargzant becoming Emperor of the world, succeeding his father. In Grazer society, their worship rites are probably combined anyway, so the point is moot until you get outside it. I assume the Grazers have acknowledged Kargzant and Yelmalio as the same god by now, in the time of Monrogh if not before. 

The rules are basically the same for a Dara Happan Yelm worshipper, but they conceive it very differently and the cultural context is different. They understand that Antirius was literally the part of Yelm he left behind when he was killed (separated into parts), and at the Dawn all Yelm's parts were combined again. So they see that Yelmalio and Yelm are of course associated gods, because one is literally part of the other. These funny barbarians who think Yelmalio is the son of Yelm are of course misunderstanding this badly. And while they might understand that Antirius was Yelm becoming part of the Many, and their recombining means Yelm is the One again but has knowledge of the Many (and is thus Illuminated), so it makes sense that mythic sense that anyone can participate in Antirius rites but only the elect participate in the sacred Yelm rites, the current social climate in the Dara Happan empire means that no one really sees a need for a separate Antirius cult, and it just doesn't practically exist there. But, you know, it could if anyone wanted it to, which no one really does in the heartlands (gods like Polaris or Yanafals Tarnils fill that niche now), but it's understood it survives among barbarians. This account lightly skips over many changes in Yelmic thought over the years (particularly about Illumination and the nature of Yelm), which individuals may know or understand differently, but that's mostly irrelevant from both a rules perspective, and for how it works in current Glorantha. 

To understand how a Grazer would relate to Yelmalio you mostly have to look at how a Grazer understands it, rather than how a Dara Happan Yelm worshipper would understand it - though it largely works out the same. But there is also the factor that the Sartarite worshippers of Yelmalio are going to have quite different reactions to Grazers and Dara Happan nobles wanting to join in their worship ceremonies. 

[davecake]

13 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

If you want to get to Magasta you're going to have to be Blue People Orlanthi aka "Helerites" (not all of whom are actually Water rune people).

Heler's straddling the line between pantheons is what will enable you to approach Cthul- I mean Magasta. He's got movement, double Water, and Death runes, and Heler is Change and Water.

Magasta is a husband-protector of Ernalda too, though. And I think is mostly going to be approached either an ancestor of the local river god, or Choralinthor/local water body of water, rather than as an ancestor of his worshippers directly. There really is not much point in having much to do with Magasta unless you are near a large body of water, as he is mostly a sea monster god. 

And he is actually difficult to become/remain initiated to for even most Water creature, as becoming and remaining initiated requires large regular POW sacrifices. You mostly initiate to him en masse in times of danger when you want sea monsters or similar to destroy your enemies and save your people. Then go back to worshipping mostly less demanding and terrifying deities. He really is a bit Cthulhu-ish. 

[None]

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

To understand how a Grazer would relate to Yelmalio you mostly have to look at how a Grazer understands it, rather than how a Dara Happan Yelm worshipper would understand it - though it largely works out the same. But there is also the factor that the Sartarite worshippers of Yelmalio are going to have quite different reactions to Grazers and Dara Happan nobles wanting to join in their worship ceremonies. 

I can immagine. Still, the scene for the later is very ammusing but its not like a stranded Yelmic Dara Happan noble without any rune points would have much choice. (Why do I feel the urge to laugh manically right now?)

9 minutes ago, davecake said:

And he is actually difficult to become/remain initiated to for even most Water creature, as becoming and remaining initiated requires large regular POW sacrifices.

He requires constant POW sacrifices? That's unusual. Or is that only for non-sea monsters?

[soltakss]

22 hours ago, None said:

On 4/11/2021 at 3:52 AM, Shiningbrow said:

I also second buying @soltakss book! @None, I think you'd like reading the bits about changing the myths, and the consequences of that! It makes for more fun and hilarity 🤣

I'll consider it

Maybe this review will help people decide whether to buy this.

 

[davecake]

On 4/2/2021 at 1:56 AM, None said:

Shouldn't the Luminous Stalion King and the Yelminf Grazelanders be able to supplant and overthrow the Feathered Horse Queen and potentially bring back Dendara?

Yes. But this would be difficult, as the Feathered Horse Queens are quite powerful and have a much firmer control over Grazer society than the priestesses ever had over previous Pure Horse People society (including her own martial resources like the Hiia Swordsman Humakti), and in all likelihood, it would hugely weaken Grazer society as a whole - they would no longer have the reverence of the vendref, alliance with other Earth cultists including the Shakers, or the magical power of sovereignty over Dragon Pass. So it seems that any Stallion King blessed with any political common sense whatsoever would be unlikely to think it a good idea. 

 

On 4/2/2021 at 1:56 AM, None said:

I know the core book sort of claims that Dendara and Ernalda, both whom the Grazers call La Ungaiant if I remember correctly, are one and the same but I've allways assumedthat is a Grazer misconception due to their Solar myths beeing muxed with Sartar and Ernaldan religions.

That's not at all the Grazer understanding though. The Grazers do not really think of La-Ungariant as being Dendara at all - Dendara is a Dara Happan goddess they barely have heard of, and don't care about (and if they did, would think the Dara Happans had completely misunderstood and perverted, even more than they did Yelm). 

On 4/2/2021 at 3:03 PM, None said:

That said. I consider Ernalda and Dendara to be beyond a doubt two entirely separate goddesses and Denadar to not even be an Earth Goddess but a Sky Godess albeit with the Light Rune instead of the Sun Rune

The Cults book is only going to confuse you further then. But the Gods Book will definitely be making Dendara an Earth goddess rather than a Sky Goddess, with the same Runes as Ernalda. 

God Learners would say La-Ungariant was Dendara before and Ernalda now, but we know the God Learners misunderstood this stuff quite badly. And the Grazers aren't God Learners. 

On 4/2/2021 at 1:56 AM, None said:

Really though, how did Dendara disapear? A grazxelander woman awakening to Ernalda and spreading a new strain into her people is one thing but completely exterminating a goddess from a whole poulation? A population to whose socity and presumambly worldview and mentality said goddes was an integral part for many, many gereations?

The Grazers think that the Feathered Horse Queen showed that their goddess La-Ungariant was really the true form of this local Earth Queen goddess, and this showed them how La-Ungariant fit into this unfamiliar land. They don't think Dendara went away, was exterminated, etc at all, they'd mostly be 'Dendara who?' They just think that now they understand La-Ungariant better, or at least differently. I mean, still an Earth goddess, still the wife of the king, still the womens goddess and ruler, but now we understand her significance to people who aren't nomadic Pure Horse People, and her relationship to Kero Fin and Ana Gor, which is good, right?  Especially as it means these locals understand that she has the right to rule over them now. 

And the right way to worship her for Pure Horse People is still as the wife of the Sun, just we see that the Pure Horse People are in a foreign land and must behave as one people among many now. But magically, it was successful, and so the FHQs won, and changed the status quo. 

On 4/2/2021 at 3:03 PM, None said:

You could argue that Feathered Horse Queen actively exterinated the worship of dendara scouring it from the Grazelands but such things rarely succed entirely not to mention it tends to rise a lot of enmity.

But almost no one understands it that way at all. She changed the La-Ungariant rites, in ways that drastically enhanced her power and importance both within and without Grazer society. I think in practical terms, no one had to change to be part of a new cult, to re-initiate, to lose magic. They just changed their rites a bit. 

And naturally, most of the La-Ungariant worshippers (there were no doubt some conservatives who preferred it when their goddess, and all Grazer women really, were less empowered and more subservient), really had no issue with it. There were no doubt political struggles, but its mostly a paradigm shift not a war of extermination. Gradually there are less and less followers of the old way, but largely its because they convert to the new way. Some of them refuse to change, and just get sidelined, or get old and retire or die and then get replaced by a follower of the new way. A few will actively challenge the new way - but they generally lose such contests, or wins are partial and unconvincing and don't change momentum, just slow it a little. The next generation thinks it is bizarre to even want to go back to the old way, the generation after that barely even understands the controversy. 

[davecake]

30 minutes ago, None said:

He requires constant POW sacrifices? That's unusual. Or is that only for non-sea monsters?

He requires POW sacrifice annually, yeah, which is unsustainable for normal people. It is unusual. I imagine the actual sea monsters relate to him rather differently, but I don't how how. This is from both the draft Gods book writeup, and the RQ3 writeup. 

(not counting mermen that humans just perceive as monstrous, like Yssabau, I think they have to do the regular sacrifice thing too)

I wouldn't entirely rule out a work around involving sacrifice of sentients to Magasta for particularly nasty merman societies as a possible variation, but it's not in the draft (or any previous) writeup. 

[None]

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

it would hugely weaken Grazer society as a whole

That hasn't stopped people in the past.

4 minutes ago, davecake said:

they would no longer have the reverence of the vendref, alliance with other Earth cultists including the Shakers, or the magical power of sovereignty over Dragon Pass.

About the earth cults, yes, true, the Earth cults would probbable get pretty upset. As would the Vandref.

They just need to discover more Solar cults and retaking the Suns dominion should make it possible for them to strengthen their Sun/Sky powers more, and about that last part, the Sun is a source of sovereignty  too. (Unless that's more tied to the Sun as Yelm than the Sun as Yu-Kargzant.)

 

Also.

8 minutes ago, davecake said:

So it seems that any Stallion King blessed with any political common sense whatsoever would be unlikely to think it a good idea.

Has never stopped people before.

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

But almost no one understands it that way at all. She changed the La-Ungariant rites, in ways that drastically enhanced her power and importance both within and without Grazer society. I think in practical terms, no one had to change to be part of a new cult, to re-initiate, to lose magic. They just changed their rites a bit. 

If that was all there wouldn't have been a blody war of conquest.

16 minutes ago, davecake said:

And naturally, most of the La-Ungariant worshippers (there were no doubt some conservatives who preferred it when their goddess, and all Grazer women really, were less empowered and more subservient), really had no issue with it. There were no doubt political struggles, but its mostly a paradigm shift not a war of extermination.

That's not really how people work. When it comes to coe beliefs and worldviews and your own identiy there is no such thing as 'this new way is better lets change to that'. It's more of a 'you're not killing my identity'. Children also usually adopt the worldviews of their parents even as/if they rebel against them.

I would say that changing Lan-Ungariant as Debndara into La'Ungariant as Ernalda is large enough of a shift to make her seem like something else entirely and similar enough of a shift to make her seem like a perversion of the former.

 

Also, doesn't Dendara have things that Ernalda doesn't?

I think I've heard that textile work is more closey tied to Dendara than Ernalda.

27 minutes ago, davecake said:

The Cults book is only going to confuse you further then. But the Gods Book will definitely be making Dendara an Earth goddess rather than a Sky Goddess,

That's a shame. I was realy hoping they would dare make a goddess of women (excluding the Elder Races of course, that would make this discusion way more complicated) that wasn't just another Earth Goddes.

29 minutes ago, davecake said:

with the same Runes as Ernalda

Even the Fertility Rune? I was under the impression there was a reasn why she didn't have that one.

 

21 minutes ago, davecake said:

I wouldn't entirely rule out a work around involving sacrifice of sentients to Magasta for particularly nasty merman societies as a possible variation, but it's not in the draft (or any previous) writeup. 

I can immagine this very easily.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

David, what is your source for the 'no gender restrictions'? Yelm in its Dara Happan form has always been presumed to be as gender restricted as they get AFAIK.

2019 Gen Con GoG Preview (same in the Current Yelm writeup in GoG (unpublished))

[davecake]

3 minutes ago, None said:

That hasn't stopped people in the past.

 

Indeed. While I think I am correct in saying that a Luminous Stallion King (or a group of followers) who tried to (effectively) destroy the Feathered Horse Queen as a magical and political institution would be foolish, politically very misguided, and unlikely to succeed, it is absolutely the case that many people in human history have attempted similar efforts that are foolish, politically misguided, and unlikely to succeed.

I think such efforts are more likely to be a doomed effort of a group of extremists than a realistic outcome. Which can make for a good story though. 

15 minutes ago, None said:

If that was all there wouldn't have been a blody war of conquest.

What war of conquest are you referring to? The first Feathered Horse Queen had a violent confrontation with the Chief (Esnandrol the Bright Champion), but it seems to have been a rebellion that ended in what is described as a magical duel, rather than a war or even a battle. She killed that Chief, and then made peace with his successor, the rest is politics not war. 

There is no record at all of religious violence within the womens cults, just some supported her at first and some did not. 

20 minutes ago, None said:

That's not really how people work.

It's literally exactly how people work. Even in fairly violent societies, many long term changes occur mostly through political means. And that is exactly what is described - the new chief of the Grazers (Endars Stand-up) made a political call that continuing to resist change violently would ultimately fail, and would be horribly costly, so accepted change, and the conservative tribal members had to accept it or rebel against their rightful chieftain.

21 minutes ago, None said:

When it comes to coe beliefs and worldviews and your own identiy there is no such thing as 'this new way is better lets change to that'.

And in large part what I am saying is that you see the Dendara vs Ernalda change as a core belief and worldview issue, and the Grazers do not, or at least not in the same way or to the same extent. Because literally they do not perceive it as a Dendara vs Ernalda issue at all, but a change in the understanding of La-Ungariant and her relationship to the Chieftain, and that is a lesser issue, if still a significant one. 

In part you are saying this because you have a firm belief about the nature of Dendara that is no longer considered true in Glorantha. The Gods book will say that Dendara and Ernalda are basically two versions of the same cult, though it may be true that they are not quite identical or not quite same entity. The version of Dendara published in RQ3 should be considered essentially superseded. This was a deliberate change by Jeff. After reflection, I pretty much agree with him. 

Or, alternately, if you think Dendara and Ernalda are distinct and different goddesses that are entirely dissimilar, why do you not treat the issue as La-Ungariant being a third distinct goddess who changes a few details of her associated cults by drawing on a different set of myths? As long as you consider the issue as about two very real and distinct goddesses, one of whom the Grazers barely know or acknowledge under that name, and their own goddess, La-Ungariant, as just a false deity, a misunderstanding, you are effectively saying that the best way to understand what is going on is from an entirely external point of view that assumes the Grazers are deluded. And then you wonder why it doesn't seem to work the way you think it should. 

32 minutes ago, None said:

Children also usually adopt the worldviews of their parents even as/if they rebel against them.

There are certainly people around who think, to pick a roughly comparable more modern issue, that women should not have the vote, and have a fair bit of their identity constructed around innate male superiority. There are similarly probably ardent Yu-Kargzant fanatics who think the idea of the representative of Yu-Kargzant sharing power with the goddess is terrible. But most people adopt to the status quo, and adopt their worldview accordingly, and roll their eyes at the views of earlier generations that no longer reflect social reality. 

42 minutes ago, None said:

Also, doesn't Dendara have things that Ernalda doesn't?

I think I've heard that textile work is more closey tied to Dendara than Ernalda.

For cultural/social stuff like that, you really have to think of La-Ungariant as being separate to either. Dendara might be more associated with textile work (though actually, I think it is far more the other way around, with Ernalda's very close relationship with the Loom House etc), but La-Ungariant is from a culture of nomadic people who live on horse back and get everything they can from horses - there will be less weaving, and a lot more leatherwork. The Grazer women can get the vendref women to produce woven cloth for them. 

And the most significant magical/mythic changes are in associated cults, which will always differ within the cults a fair bit anyway - Ernalda has different associated cults in Esrolia than in Dragon Pass, especially in practice if not theory (eg Magasta is an associated cult of Ernalda in Esrolia, especially the coast, but I think you'd be hard put to find even an active shrine in a great temple anywhere in Sartar). 

In general, the biggest difference is that Dendara is a god more for the aristocracy, and Oria etc, the grain goddesses, are far more separated than the land and grain goddesses are from Ernalda in regular worship - separate grain goddess rites without invoking the Earth priestesses are weird in Sartar, but common in Peloria (among the peasantry). But in pre-FHQ Grazer society, they didn't have much use for the grain goddess rites anyway, growing crops was for other people. Dendara also lacks those magic powers about sovereignty in her own rites. She has the Bless Home power, though (not so useful for the PHP unless it also applies to yurts). Their Earth and Healing powers are about the same. Dendara has a closer association with horses, of course, mostly through a close association with Hippoi/Arandayla - even more so with La-Ungariant though (and in Saird, with Redalda). Overall I think the current writeup makes Dendara a bit too weak, but maybe later materials will boost her abilities. 

Ernalda has a much more powerful set of associated cults, besides the obvious pantheon differences. Ernalda can draw on both her husband-protectors, and the much more integrated and developed Earth pantheon centred around Esrolia. A Dendara priestess is unlikely to ever meet a dedicated Asrelia priestess or Babeester Gor warrior in Dara Happa. But Dendara, besides Yelm of course, has trick card with the Gorgorma cult - they may be sneakier than the BG killers, but I suspect they are every bit as nasty and effective in practice. And I think the Dendara and Gorgorma cults are very close in Peloria - they share temples. 

 

[davecake]

53 minutes ago, David Scott said:

2019 Gen Con GoG Preview (same in the Current Yelm writeup in GoG (unpublished))

That's weird, because drawing on the same source, I saw nothing so definitive. So you might want to narrow it down to a specific statement, or are we drawing assumptions from what isn't said?

I don't think Yelm the entity from a God Learner point of view necessarily has strong gender rules, and the writeup does lean that way by trying to cover multiple cultures, but there was nothing in the writeup than implied Dara Happa was not still extremely patriarchal. 

[davecake]

1 hour ago, None said:

That's a shame. I was realy hoping they would dare make a goddess of women (excluding the Elder Races of course, that would make this discusion way more complicated) that wasn't just another Earth Goddes.

I agree in general, but it seems to be firmly the case for the Central Genertelan cultures at least. I'd like to see less emphasis on it myself for the West and East at least. 

It seems to be heading very much towards the main womens gods are Earth goddesses in Pamaltela, even though Pamalt is the main mans deity too. Disappointing, Faranar was the mains womens deity and fairly free of elemental ties in earlier material. 

1 hour ago, None said:

Even the Fertility Rune? I was under the impression there was a reasn why she didn't have that one.

Especially the Fertility Rune, she is definitely still a healing deity and ultimately an agricultural one. It is her social power that seems reduced. Dendara really does seem to have a lot of her power hived off into associated deities where Ernalda holds much more of it herself. I hope this will change, but this may well be a conscious decision that Dendara is weak due to being in a sexist jerk society. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, None said:

That's not really how people work. When it comes to coe beliefs and worldviews and your own identiy there is no such thing as 'this new way is better lets change to that'. It's more of a 'you're not killing my identity'. Children also usually adopt the worldviews of their parents even as/if they rebel against them.

I would say that changing Lan-Ungariant as Debndara into La'Ungariant as Ernalda is large enough of a shift to make her seem like something else entirely and similar enough of a shift to make her seem like a perversion of the former.

I will not challenge irl vision, but glorantha vision:

Remember that  there is a magical contest, between two leaders:

FHQ won.

That is not only the other leader death. That is also a deep change in the world (at least grazer world) mundane and mythical world.

When FHQ led the religious rituals, she exhibited for everyone who was the goddess. 

Few would consider that the old way was the good one, because all saw the goddess during the ceremonies: they have the proof.

That is not "just" an orate success (I m convinced or not by the debate) or a spell success (I can resist with my POW) but a permanent deed (or semi permanent until the next change).

It is a heroquest success.

 

[None]

On 4/14/2021 at 11:01 AM, davecake said:

What war of conquest are you referring to? The first Feathered Horse Queen had a violent confrontation with the Chief (Esnandrol the Bright Champion), but it seems to have been a rebellion that ended in what is described as a magical duel, rather than a war or even a battle. She killed that Chief, and then made peace with his successor, the rest is politics not war.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/feathered-horse-queen-dynasty/

Quote

Eneera Tor (born 1430, Feathered Horse Queen 1455 to 1535, Queen of Dragon Pass 1494 to 1535). Eneera was born around 1430 and emerged from the womb of the Earth Goddess around 1455 as the Feathered Horse Queen. For the next fifteen years she fought to assert her authority and in 1570 she crushed the king of Grazers. The next Sun King submitted to her (the version presented in Pure Horse People tales preserves as much dignity for the Sun King as is possible, but in truth he was humiliated and forced to acknowledge her as his suzerain).

I cannot call fifteen years a duel.

On 4/14/2021 at 11:01 AM, davecake said:

The version of Dendara published in RQ3 should be considered essentially superseded.

Which I haven't read so if you want me to comment on that you'd have to tell me about that version of her or how it is different from her version in the upcomming cults book.

On 4/14/2021 at 11:01 AM, davecake said:

Or, alternately, if you think Dendara and Ernalda are distinct and different goddesses that are entirely dissimilar, why do you not treat the issue as La-Ungariant being a third distinct goddess who changes a few details of her associated cults by drawing on a different set of myths?

Because the core book literally calls 'Yu-Kargzant Yelm the Sun Stalion'? Because The Pure Horse People and The  Dara Happans are both Solars? Because La-Ungariant as a, what is it called Mask? As a slightly difreent interpretation of Dedara to fit a nomadic horse lifestyle makes sense?

Because Dendara and Ernalda have to difrent personalities, natures and agendas to be anything but two separate goddesses unless you want Dendara to be 'Actually, Ernalda is here too but no one but her know it and they actually belive her guise as Dendara, ha!'?

Because Ernalda is a great enough goddess as she is and don't need to be greater or more widespread?

Because -

On 4/14/2021 at 11:01 AM, davecake said:

Overall I think the current writeup makes Dendara a bit too weak, but maybe later materials will boost her abilities.

 

On 4/14/2021 at 11:18 AM, davecake said:

Especially the Fertility Rune, she is definitely still a healing deity and ultimately an agricultural one. It is her social power that seems reduced. Dendara really does seem to have a lot of her power hived off into associated deities where Ernalda holds much more of it herself. I hope this will change, but this may well be a conscious decision that Dendara is weak due to being in a sexist jerk society.

- there's no point with having Dendara essentially or literally be 'Ernalda Lite' or Ernalda in a different skin.

Yes I'm assuming, or hoping, that Ernalda and Dendara have different cult practises, myths, values, and enough to make it feel like meaningful choice for at least on a character (that is, in game personal and emotional) level those that innitate into the later don't just end up with 'well this sucks, I got stuck in crippled Ernalda'.

Dendara having less social authority that Ernalda is fine, even her beeing weaker than Ernalda can be fine considreeing she is less of a Queen Goddess than Ernalda and is probably less powerful as a, well as a force of power than Ernalda too. 

She should however have things that Ernalda doesn't have and something that makes her a legitimate goddes of women in her own rights and with her own vision and meaning.

I also stand by that having her not be an earth goddess makes her more interesting. Unless you can create a backstory and possibly make her being an earth goddess an interesting enough part of her identity that it makes having her be another earth goddess worth it.

On 4/14/2021 at 11:18 AM, davecake said:

I agree in general, but it seems to be firmly the case for the Central Genertelan cultures at least. I'd like to see less emphasis on it myself for the West and East at least. 

It seems to be heading very much towards the main womens gods are Earth goddesses in Pamaltela, even though Pamalt is the main mans deity too. Disappointing, Faranar was the mains womens deity and fairly free of elemental ties in earlier material. 

I don't think I need to say more about how I feel there are enough Earth Goddesses that are goddesses of women.

Instead I'm going to ask. How many goddesses of women aren't tied to or related to Ertnalda in some way? I'm curious and always looking for proof that Ernalda isn't close to everywhere in some way or another.

On 4/14/2021 at 1:34 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I will not challenge irl vision, but glorantha vision:

Remember that  there is a magical contest, between two leaders:

FHQ won.

That is not only the other leader death. That is also a deep change in the world (at least grazer world) mundane and mythical world.

When FHQ led the religious rituals, she exhibited for everyone who was the goddess. 

Few would consider that the old way was the good one, because all saw the goddess during the ceremonies: they have the proof.

That is not "just" an orate success (I m convinced or not by the debate) or a spell success (I can resist with my POW) but a permanent deed (or semi permanent until the next change).

It is a heroquest success.

 

I'm not sure I agree entirely on the emotinal aspect or if this can fully win over the power the identity that you've made into yourself wield over you but for Glorsaantha it is a fair argument.

But it also means that that a powerful and cleverly designed enough heroquest can change the magical landscape of the Grazelands significantly.

Edited April 18, 2021 by None