Yelm, runes and spells and heroquests

[None]

On 4/14/2021 at 9:26 AM, davecake said:

He requires POW sacrifice annually, yeah, which is unsustainable for normal people. It is unusual. I imagine the actual sea monsters relate to him rather differently, but I don't how how.

I thought about Magasta some more and didn't wantto place this in the above post because. I think you can immagine why.

Needing to sacrufice one POW a year is demanding and raconian but actually not unsustainable. For an inividual I mean, for a can entire community I can see it getting problematic if everyone or a large number of the population needed to scrifice that POW.

 

Also, @davecake please do tell me about the RQ3 writeup about Dendara. I need to know if I am to understand where you're coming from there.

I didn't even know there was a cult writeup for her. As far as I knew the only thing that was about her was a note of her being an associate cult under Yelm in his writeup in the Cult Compendium.

 

Edit: Oh, page shift. It might not be a problem as the forum marks where unread posts begin but I'm not sure how it interacts with page shifts so I'll just mention that i just made a post before this one.

Edited April 16, 2021 by None
Left out parts of a sentence by accident. Changing its meaning. Oops.

[French Desperate WindChild]

42 minutes ago, None said:

I'm not sure I agree entirely on the emotinal aspect or if this can fully win over the power the identity that you've made into yourself wield over you but for Glorsaantha it is a fair argument.

But it also means that that a powerful and cleverly designed enough heroquest can change the magical landscape of the Grazelands significantly.

remember me  who wants to resurrect  a dead god by heroquesting ?

😛

[None]

9 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

remember me  who wants to resurrect  a dead god by heroquesting ?

😛

I think I've spent several posts seriously considering it, asking about it and planning for it in a different thread. Thinkning about how said god would be and what his runes would be and I've spent over a day thinkning about it in real life now.

But seriously, how couldn't I? Vadrus is an excellent antagonist for Dara Happa, and his return creates so many interesting possibilities. 😄

 

Edit: Or did you mean someone else? I think there are at least a few characters in Glorantha that tried it too. *cough* Lunars *chough*

Edited April 14, 2021 by None

[Kloster]

16 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

remember me  who wants to resurrect  a dead god by heroquesting ?

 

7 minutes ago, None said:

I think I've spent several posts seriously considering it, asking about it and planning for it in a different thread. Thinkning about how said god would be and what his runes would be and I've spent over a day thinkning about it in real life now.

But seriously, how couldn't I? Vadrus is an excellent antagonist for Dara Happa, and his return creates so many interesting possibilities. 😄

 

Edit: Or did you mean someone else? I think there are at least a few characters in Glorantha that tried it too. *cough* Lunars *chough*

Argrath and Broyan are good contenders.

[French Desperate WindChild]

33 minutes ago, None said:

Edit: Or did you mean someone else? I think there are at least a few characters in Glorantha that tried it too. *cough* Lunars *chough*

no no that was you

Of course you can; it is your glorantha. I just say if pc can resurrect a god, then a queen can change the goddess her people worship 😉

 

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

So you might want to narrow it down to a specific statement, or are we drawing assumptions from what isn't said?

Cults with gender requirements state them in the appropriate requirements section (lay, initiate, RL, etc).

There was a single mention of male dominance (not gender restriction) in the cult, in the Gen Con 2019 Preview

Quote

Pamaltelan Elves

[...] This is especially interesting because the ruling dynasties of Yellow elves are are all female, totally reversing the normal male-dominance associated with Yelm-worship.

This section has been removed from the latest version, so there's now no mention of male dominance or gender restriction.

 

[davecake]

19 hours ago, None said:

Needing to sacrufice one POW a year is demanding and raconian but actually not unsustainable. For an inividual I mean, for a can entire community I can see it getting problematic if everyone or a large number of the population needed to scrifice that POW.

In the RQ3 writeup, it was 2 POW a year, on the High Holy Day. I think that is unsustainable for almost everyone. And applies to priests etc too. 

It suggests that most merman communities maintain a minor temple, probably from a hard core of fanatics or by swapping priests in and out of the role (and almost everyone being in an associated cult), but sometimes a large number of community members may initiate at once, mostly just to participate in huge community casts of Call Monster. Once the community enemies have been devastated by sea monsters, they let their initiation lapse. 

[davecake]

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

Cults with gender requirements state them in the appropriate requirements section (lay, initiate, RL, etc).

Right, so you are reasoning that lack of information means the default, rather than pointing to a particular statement. So, in my opinion this is because the cult writeup is generic and attempts to cover all the Sun gods, and there may be no gender restrictions for worshippers of Somash or the Ralian Sun Horse. But I don't think Dara Happa or Pent are going to be any less patriarchal - maybe women can be lay members to indicate lineage, I don't know, but I doubt they can proceed to Yelm the Rider or above in those societies, or at least not without some special case. 

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

There was a single mention of male dominance (not gender restriction) in the cult, in the Gen Con 2019 Preview

Quote

Pamaltelan Elves

[...] This is especially interesting because the ruling dynasties of Yellow elves are are all female, totally reversing the normal male-dominance associated with Yelm-worship.

This section has been removed from the latest version, so there's now no mention of male dominance or gender restriction.

 

Yes. Someone probably noticed Yellow elves are all male. 

I think removing that section is more about correcting that error than deciding that Yelm is suddenly no longer patriarchal everywhere else. 

[David Scott]

5 minutes ago, davecake said:

Right, so you are reasoning that lack of information means the default

If it's not in the cult requirements, it isn't a requirement. 

Otherwise you will get into situations with new players with female adventurers reading the cult write up and saying "my adventurer is going to join Yelm", If your reply is that it's patriarchal. They then say "where does it say that? There's no gender restrictions in the requirements, not like Babeester Gor initiates or Ernalda priestesses".

There's a single entry under Peloria that says only nobles and their children belong to Yelm. In that case the restriction would be that their occupation be noble.

[davecake]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

If it's not in the cult requirements, it isn't a requirement. 

Otherwise you will get into situations with new players with female adventurers reading the cult write up and saying "my adventurer is going to join Yelm", If your reply is that it's patriarchal. They then say "where does it say that? There's no gender restrictions in the requirements, not like Babeester Gor initiates or Ernalda priestesses".

I agree it needs clarification. 

[None]

23 hours ago, davecake said:

In the RQ3 writeup, it was 2 POW a year, on the High Holy Day. I think that is unsustainable for almost everyone. And applies to priests etc too. 

That does change things. I can still see a player character managing to sustain that, albeit with a bit of difficulty, though.

 

Edit: It's kind of funny that Kygor Liter is more accesible than Magasta.

Edited April 16, 2021 by None

[None]

On 4/14/2021 at 4:14 PM, None said:

Also, @davecake please do tell me about the RQ3 writeup about Dendara. I need to know if I am to understand where you're coming from there.

I didn't even know there was a cult writeup for her. As far as I knew the only thing that was about her was a note of her being an associate cult under Yelm in his writeup in the Cult Compendium.

No one?

On 4/14/2021 at 11:01 AM, davecake said:

The version of Dendara published in RQ3 should be considered essentially superseded. This was a deliberate change by Jeff. After reflection, I pretty much agree with him. 

(bolding mine)

I've been trying to figure out (and wracking my brain over) what @davecake meant here and what the reason for said change (and what the change could even be beyond making her more like Ernalda).

Unfortunately, as I haven't read any RQ3 material and obviously don't know anything about Dendara's writup in the new Cult Book beside what little Davecacke told me it's pretty much been immposible.

From what I understand she's essentially identical to Ernalda but with less powers (especially social ones).

I only know that she has the runes in Guide to Glorantha and what all of you have told me which can pretty much be summed up as: there are a lot of theories and the Entekosiad (which is unforunately the Entekosiad) and we don't have much to go on because there isn't much material, together with 'she's Earthj now for some reason'.

So briefly, how was she in RQ3?

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, None said:

No one?

(bolding mine)

I've been trying to figure out (and wracking my brain over) what @davecake meant here and what the reason for said change (and what the change could even be beyond making her more like Ernalda).

Unfortunately, as I haven't read any RQ3 material and obviously don't know anything about Dendara's writup in the new Cult Book beside what little Davecacke told me it's pretty much been immposible.

From what I understand she's essentially identical to Ernalda but with less powers (especially social ones).

I only know that she has the runes in Guide to Glorantha and what all of you have told me which can pretty much be summed up as: there are a lot of theories and the Entekosiad (which is unforunately the Entekosiad) and we don't have much to go on because there isn't much material, together with 'she's Earthj now for some reason'.

So briefly, how was she in RQ3?

All I can tell you is that Dendara is an Earth goddess and has always been; a sun rune is a weird one for her to have! She is the Pelandan parallel of Ernalda and in the Entekosiad and elsewhere, it is said she appointed the role of Sun and the holder usurped her sovereignty. She is now his wife, but she has a kind of strange parallel relationship with Umath's eldest daughter Serenha, who are worshipped together to bring rain in Dara Happa.

It's been suggested that perhaps these goddesses are the seed source of the Sedenya cult vying for the Middle Air against Orlanth: eldest living child of Umath and Her spouse intended to suborn the Sun cult and fight off the Orlanthis.

In these histories, Dendara has always been unequivocably been an Earth deity, wrapped in the trappings of the same.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Dendara has always been unequivocably been an Earth deity, wrapped in the trappings of the same.

In the short RQ3 writeup for the original Gods of Glorantha, Dendara has the runes Earth and Light .

Always an Earth deity.  Always had a connection to the Light (think surface Earth perhaps - i.e. the Earth closest to the Sun and receiving its blessings).

[None]

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

In the short RQ3 writeup for the original Gods of Glorantha, Dendara has the runes Earth and Light .

Always an Earth deity.  Always had a connection to the Light (think surface Earth perhaps - i.e. the Earth closest to the Sun and receiving its blessings).

Yes, I remeber you  meationed that earlier (some ten days ago or so) and it completely slipped my mind. Oops.

Was that her only runes? Nothing else?

That's a little unusual, I can't remember any other god that has multiple elemental runes and if so I can understand removing one of them. Personally I think I would have removed the Earth one.

Her being a Sky/Light Goddess, possibly one that was once Eath , makes much more sense and is a much more interesting choice.

As it stands all of this only makes her description in the Guide to Glorantha more of a mystery.

Edited April 16, 2021 by None

[jajagappa]

21 minutes ago, None said:

Was that her only runes? Nothing else?

Yes, those were the original runes.  We'll have to see what the final version ends up at, but I'm pretty sure Earth will be one of them.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, None said:

(and what the change could even be beyond making her more like Ernalda)

While working on the Ernalda cult for HeroQuest Glorantha with Jeff (after the Guide), we realised that Ernalda and Dendara are the same Goddess. Dendara is everything that Ernalda can never be, Ernalda is everything that Dendara can never be.

Ernalda is Dendara's shadow that she can't see. Dendara is hidden from Ernalda by the brightness of the sun. They are both the daughter of Empress Earth. Once you understand that, her runes are obvious:

Dendara's Runes are  ( is a secondary association). Her cult is identical to Ernalda's in many many ways.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

While working on the Ernalda cult for HeroQuest Glorantha with Jeff (after the Guide), we realised that Ernalda and Dendara are the same Goddess. Dendara is everything that Ernalda can never be, Ernalda is everything that Dendara can never be.

Did they start out as such?

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Ernalda is Dendara's shadow that she can't see. Dendara is hidden from Ernalda by the brightness of the sun. They are both the daughter of Empress Earth.

Basically this means that Dendara is present at Ezel, and her cult known in Esrolia.

As Oria has quite a lot of overlap/identity with Ernalda, where does that leave the acknowledgement between Dendara and Oria if Ernalda is unaware of the bright wife? And do we find Gorgorma alongside Dendara in Ezel?

Empress Earth is of course a title as much as the Celestial Court primeval earth entity, and it is fairly normal for complex deities to have multiple sets of parents, so the question whether Ernalda is not a daughter of Asrelia would be useless. At the same time, I find it unlikely to find Dendara being a daughter of Asrelia.

But then, young adult Asrelia is Ernalda as far as most of the magic of the deity is concerned. Different associates, and a few key differences, but on the whole not a lot more than between different Great Temples.

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Once you understand that, her runes are obvious:

Dendara's Runes are  ( is a secondary association). Her cult is identical to Ernalda's in many many ways.

And different in enough ways to make it a case similar to Yu-Kargzant vs. urban Yelm.

[jajagappa]

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

As Oria has quite a lot of overlap/identity with Ernalda

I believe Oria is the Grain Goddess, i.e. = PelOria.

[David Scott]

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Did they start out as such?

Maybe. I like to imagine one was always where the other wasn't, the identical goddess bilocated. Perhaps the separation really happened when Dendara became Yelm's wife.

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Basically this means that Dendara is present at Ezel, and her cult known in Esrolia.

No. It means they know of Dendara. But as she's everything Ernalda isn't, she's not there.

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, David Scott said:

as she's everything Ernalda isn't, she's not there.

Well, let me tell you 'bout the way she looked
The way she'd act and the colour of her hair
Her voice was soft and cool
Her eyes were clear and bright
But she's not there

[Joerg]

11 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I believe Oria is the Grain Goddess, i.e. = PelOria.

Oria appears to mean "mother", as in DarOria, the Great Mother. PelOria would be the grain mother - Pela used to stand for wheat, but with the fairly recent re-distribution of national grains, it might mean barley these days, as Esra appears to have received Einkorn wheat.

[None]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

While working on the Ernalda cult for HeroQuest Glorantha with Jeff (after the Guide), we realised that Ernalda and Dendara are the same Goddess. Dendara is everything that Ernalda can never be, Ernalda is everything that Dendara can never be.

Ernalda is Dendara's shadow that she can't see. Dendara is hidden from Ernalda by the brightness of the sun. They are both the daughter of Empress Earth. Once you understand that, her runes are obvious:

So they're essentially to halves of the same goddess standing eternally with their backs turned against each other and unable to reconsiliate their different worlds to the point that one cannot exist with, or at the same time as, the other?

At least you put some thought into this. That much, at least, I can appreciate and I'll admit that it is an interesting concept, if done well. Thank you for answering my question, I appreciate it. 🙂

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Dendara's Runes are  ( is a secondary association). Her cult is identical to Ernalda's in many many ways.

That's kind of unique isn't it? Having two Elemental runes I mean.

Out of curiosity, are there any other gods with two elemental runes?

 

---

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Ernalda is Dendara's shadow that she can't see. Dendara is hidden from Ernalda by the brightness of the sun.

This opens up the possibility that more of the gods (the greater ones in particular as they're supposedly more vast) have dual natures like that.

You could arguably say that Yelm in the underworld is Yelms shadow but that still leaves the other three gods. Hmm.

[Qizilbashwoman]

39 minutes ago, None said:

This opens up the possibility that more of the gods (the greater ones in particular as they're supposedly more vast) have dual natures like that.

You could arguably say that Yelm in the underworld is Yelms shadow but that still leaves the other three gods. Hmm.

It's the moment Muharzam ceased to hold the office of Yelm and became Yelm as well. Before that, Yelm was a post held number of divine personages, including Lodril, Dayzatar, and Dayzatar's daughter Ourania.

I don't know if all gods have dual natures. There's some primordial division between North and South earth deities. But the narrative of Yelm comes from the Sunstop that caused the birth of Osentalka. The old solar beliefs of Genertela ended with the Sunstop. After it, there was just Yelm.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, None said:

Out of curiosity, are there any other gods with two elemental runes?

They are rare, and usually are some transitional state between elements.

The River Styx would be one:  Darkness and Water.

Annilla, the Blue Moon that commands that tides, I believe has three:  Moon, Darkness, and Water.

Caladra & Aurelion would be another: Earth and Heat.

Some of the Lunar goddesses would have Moon and Earth.