Yelm, runes and spells and heroquests

[davecake]

1 minute ago, Eff said:

Well, in this case it seems to be changing back and forth between souls or selves (there'd be less debate if there was a dramatic change in body away from Uzness). Hardly unheard of, but interesting that the previous Arkat selves don't seem to manifest under the Autarchy,

A soul with multiple natures seems to be very common for mystic heroes - Red Emperor, Belintar, etc. I think they are still there, just Arkat has limited use for those aspects of himself in retirement. I suspect the Uz would not agree that he was no longer a troll, though. 

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, davecake said:

A soul with multiple natures seems to be very common for mystic heroes - Red Emperor, Belintar, etc. I think they are still there, just Arkat has limited use for those aspects of himself in retirement. I suspect the Uz would not agree that he was no longer a troll, though. 

The quote says that there were Uz who quietly agreed that Arkat was no longer a troll, which is why it's interesting. Granted, Arkat Kingtroll presumably remained within the overall Arkat sphere because his hero-cult still functions and Arkat the Deceiver, for example, was totally unknown until the pathways to Arkat reopened and quite likely could have been torn out during the climactic interaction with Nysalor. 

[davecake]

1 minute ago, Eff said:

The quote says that there were Uz who quietly agreed that Arkat was no longer a troll, which is why it's interesting.

I'm sure they are correct as well. The Arkat they saw was not. 

2 minutes ago, Eff said:

Granted, Arkat Kingtroll presumably remained within the overall Arkat sphere because his hero-cult still functions and Arkat the Deceiver, for example, was totally unknown until the pathways to Arkat reopened and quite likely could have been torn out during the climactic interaction with Nysalor. 

I just think Arkat contains multitudes. 

But I'm sure there are many other theories. Someone at least will be sure that Arkat no longer being a troll is positive proof that it was not Arkat, but Gbaji, who emerged and took his place. Makes sense, and how do you prove them wrong?

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

I'm sure they are correct as well. The Arkat they saw was not. 

I just think Arkat contains multitudes. 

But I'm sure there are many other theories. Someone at least will be sure that Arkat no longer being a troll is positive proof that it was not Arkat, but Gbaji, who emerged and took his place. Makes sense, and how do you prove them wrong?

Reassemble Gbaji, Heroform Arkat in his "cloistered ruler" mode, ask people if they look the same? Seems pretty simple and unlikely to cause any problems.

[None]

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

There is no system in the core rules to allow career changes. 

I've also ot seen anything in the core rules that implies becoming becoming a shaman as a rune master or a rune master as a shaman is a career change. You're just broadening your approah and view on magic and the world.

So 😖 (this is supposed to be a confused face?? It doesn't look confused to me but very well.)

9 minutes ago, David Scott said:

You would start as an assistant shaman in the Golden Bow subcult. The core rules don't allow occupation changes. As an assistant shaman wouldn't be able to fulfil "Members must ride and herd only horses and may not practice agriculture." They can't be herders. 

Why can't shamans not be herders?

10 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Once you're a shaman can you never be Rune Lord or Rune Priest, as to stop being a shaman you would have to loose your fetch and die.

So a shaman cannot be a Rune Master period? And there are no cults that make any exceptions? And cults that favour shamans simply don't have rune masters?

That, wasn't my impressionb. I knew that Daka Fal didn't have Rune Masters and that shamans and rune cults usually didn't mingle but as Yelm the Sun Horse had the GoldenBow subcult that clearly wasn't the case there.

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The shaman path and the rune path are separate.

Unless I've missed something in the core rules that isn't entirely clear.

I was sure you had to at least belong to the Youth or, more likely, the Archer subcult before you could become Golden Bow and that you were actually progresing from the Archer into a shamanistic bransh of Yelm the Sun Horse.

Actually, the only things I could find in the core book was:

'Many cults don't allow their initiates to become shamans or sorcerers'  and under Goden Bow 'any Yelm Initiaet who becomes a shaman qualifies for this status'. (I don't think I'm parphrasing exactly but this should be close enough.)

[jajagappa]

6 minutes ago, None said:

Why can't shamans not be herders?

For the same reasons that assistant shamans are not herders (or that priests are not herders) - this is a full-time "occupation".

E.g. RQG p.353: An assistant shaman lives with, works for, and aids their mentor shaman in every way. In return, the assistant shaman is taught the way of the shaman. An assistant shaman’s time is not their own; most shamans have only two to four assistants, and have no room for sluggards, backsliders, or disloyal followers. An assistant shaman must spend 90% of their time with their mentor shaman"

Now play that forward into life as a shaman.  The Spirit World is always with you.  Always.

Your community expects you to:  exorcise spirits, confront disease spirits, mentor assistants, heal people, etc.

See RQG p.351: A shaman fully engages in spiritual work, surviving mainly on the payments that others make in return for their unique services. Their main responsibility is to tend to the spiritual protection and knowledge of their kinsmen and tribe members. They are the keeper of ritual and spirit magics, and act as enchanters and summoners. They are often viewed as the leading source of knowledge within their community.

If you're not supporting your community, they are going to find someone else to do the job (and the same is true for priests).

[None]

36 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

For the same reasons that assistant shamans are not herders (or that priests are not herders) - this is a full-time "occupation".

So is Noble and that occupation can definitely initiate into Yelm. I get what you mean though.

What I should have said was:

Why couldn't you as a shaman simply herd a few (ay two or three) horses on your spare time? Or more likely. Why would you have to herd at all to initiate into Yelm?

I read the requirement under Yelm the Sun Horse as ' if you herd anything it may only be horses' not as 'you must herd and you may only herd horses).

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

There is no system in the core rules to allow career changes. 

Sorry David I m not sure to understand what you means by career changes

 

I have no issue with "if you are shaman you are shaman, or if you are priest you are priest" -> the rules of 90% time are very clear you cannot have the both occupation (except when the shaman is the priest of some cults)

but..

if in 1626 you are a priest and in 1627 you want to stop priesthood,  you can become herder or warrior or... even for a season, you are a scribe, but you are hired in a mercenary company for 2 seasons => your occupation become warrior for 2 seasons.

Did I miss something ?

[jajagappa]

5 minutes ago, None said:

Why would you have to herd at all to initiate into Yelm?

Because the version of Yelm in RQG is that of the Grazelanders culture.  They live, breathe, eat, and die with horses.  Yelm is the Sun Horse.  The Grazelander nobles lead their warriors among the herds, raid for other herds, etc. and need to know how to herd the horses back to their clans. 

The shamans, however, are not out performing the warrior raids, they are guarding the camps against the hostile spirits that would eat the horses, their spirits, etc.  Very different set of tasks and obligations.

[Kloster]

28 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Because the version of Yelm in RQG is that of the Grazelanders culture.  They live, breathe, eat, and die with horses.  Yelm is the Sun Horse.  The Grazelander nobles lead their warriors among the herds, raid for other herds, etc. and need to know how to herd the horses back to their clans. 

The shamans, however, are not out performing the warrior raids, they are guarding the camps against the hostile spirits that would eat the horses, their spirits, etc.  Very different set of tasks and obligations.

This is a perfect example of why linking the rules and the world is an error. We should have rules, and adaptation to specific locales and cults, not rules that describe only a tiny set of people and ignore completely the rest.

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

This is a perfect example of why linking the rules and the world is an error. We should have rules, and adaptation to specific locales and cults, not rules that describe only a tiny set of people and ignore completely the rest.

How do you suggest they present the entire game world and its many, many, many realities? They started with Highland Orlanthi, which is historically the center of the game world presented to outsiders. The book would be five thousand pounds if they did anything else. It's just an introduction, Kloster.

[davecake]

On 4/19/2021 at 2:01 AM, Eff said:

Note that the monomythic form of the Lightbringer's Quest heavily implies Issaries, Chalana, and Lhankor are independent from Orlanth and only joined for their own reasons.

Eurmal too - who they meet during the Westfaring. On some reads, Orlanth is the only one of the seven who is Theyalan, and the majority are Western. 

[davecake]

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

There is no system in the core rules to allow career changes. 

For statuses other than magical ones, they really aren’t needed. If you have the equipment and the skills, then you can work at that profession and get professional experience in it. If your main skills are low, you will likely have a bad year. We’ve been running a ‘saga’ style game like this. 

My character was a professional warrior - but the community was too poor to have professional warriors, and she had a track skill (for religious reasons), so she tried to be a hunter (though she was not a great one). Later, we all hired out as mercenaries, and were professional warriors that season (and won fame in the Building Wall battle). Then we were made thanes, and the community was rich enough to support us, so that became our profession - but most of us are poor thanes, just learning the skills we need. 
No rules for changing profession are needed - if you change profession, gradually you are bad at it, but four free experience rolls a season can let you acquire the skills over time without player effort. And if you want to help the player along, give them opportunities to use those skills in play as well (eg a new thane gets opportunities to orate). 

[None]

12 hours ago, Kloster said:

This is a perfect example of why linking the rules and the world is an error. We should have rules, and adaptation to specific locales and cults, not rules that describe only a tiny set of people and ignore completely the rest.

There are also the fact that the skills of a shaman , and the duties of a shaman, are two different things mechanically even if they're linked culturally.

I can still see an individual Rune Master attain the skills of a shaman for personal reasons even if not, how should I put it, working as a shaman for the clan , tribe or community.

 

There's also the thing that if you take the whole initiates of Yelm must herd horses too far.

Then you can sudenly end up with a character that is incapable of herding horses for an extended time (lets say five years in Prax against your will) and suddenly you don't qualify for your own initiation. (Which is obviously stupid and I doubt any GM would enforce that but the rules as written could be taken that way if interpretated to stringently.)

Edited April 23, 2021 by None

[Kloster]

38 minutes ago, None said:

There are also the fact that the skills of a shaman , and the duties of a shaman, are two different things mechanically even if they're linked culturally.

I can still see an individual Rune Master attain the skills of a shaman for personal reasons even if not, how should I put it, working as a shaman for the clan , tribe or community.

 

There's also the thing that if you take the whole initiates of Yelm must herd horses too far.

Then you can sudenly end up with a character that is incapable of herding horses for an extended time (lets say five years in Prax against your will) and suddenly you don't qualify for your own initiation. (Which is obviously stupid and I doubt no GM would enforce that but the rules as written could be taken that way if interpretated to stringently.)

Completely agree here.

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

How do you suggest they present the entire game world and its many, many, many realities? They started with Highland Orlanthi, which is historically the center of the game world presented to outsiders. The book would be five thousand pounds if they did anything else. It's just an introduction, Kloster.

I do not suggest anything, and I know this is just an introduction (and am not reproaching it, your comment on the 5000 pounds is valid). What I said is that the world and the rules are now intertwined again, and as the book covers only a part of Glorantha, the rules have been made specifically for this part of Glorantha. I meant that it would have been better to have a generic set of rules, valid for all Glorantha, and adaptation to the specific locales and cults. On the contrary, we have rules made for specific case (but presented as generic: Nowhere in the rules do you learn that the Yelm cult is only the one of the Grazelanders, and not also the one of the Dara Happans), and other books have to change everything (like in that case changing Yelm's runes).

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, None said:

There's also the thing that if you take the whole initiates of Yelm must herd horses too far.

only grazelanders, not all yelmite : there is no description of all yelm cults (with a S) in the core rules

1 hour ago, None said:

Then you can sudenly end up with a character that is incapable of herding horses for an extended time (lets say five years in Prax against your will) and suddenly you don't qualify for your own initiation. (Which is obviously stupid and I doubt any GM would enforce that but the rules as written could be taken that way if interpretated to stringently.)

if you are a grazelander who moves for any reason in a place you cannot do what is expected by your own cult (not your god, your cult) then yes, you are not qualified for your cult.

Now if you (the character, not you irl ) are a grazelander in prax , then you have issue, and have to imagine what you can do, or accept to lose your status.

a lot of possibilities:

looking for another cult of Yelm here in Prax, where of course the expectation are different

doing a pilgrinage to obtain a favor or a dispense

setting near the river and create a little community (at least one farm) where you can herd your horses

etc...

Of course as a GM you can change the rules (as I do and as I am sharing in some posts, but only gameplay rules, no the background rules: if a cult requirement is A, then you have to follow A)

but you can as a player / gm find what is defined in the rules as opportunities to accompany the characters evolution following personal drama (and what a good drama to lose the connection with your god and try to regain it !).

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[Qizilbashwoman]

13 hours ago, Kloster said:

I do not suggest anything, and I know this is just an introduction (and am not reproaching it, your comment on the 5000 pounds is valid). What I said is that the world and the rules are now intertwined again, and as the book covers only a part of Glorantha, the rules have been made specifically for this part of Glorantha. I meant that it would have been better to have a generic set of rules, valid for all Glorantha, and adaptation to the specific locales and cults. On the contrary, we have rules made for specific case (but presented as generic: Nowhere in the rules do you learn that the Yelm cult is only the one of the Grazelanders, and not also the one of the Dara Happans), and other books have to change everything (like in that case changing Yelm's runes).

But the rules for gods are always peculiar. That's the entire point of Glorantha. There's no universal Yelm cult stretching over the entire world. It's always like this everywhere. Doesn't Esrolia not even have a real Solar cult at all, just Harono, who is kind of half-assedly worshipped on the side? Fonrit in Pamaltela has Varana (spp?, I forget), but most Solar attention is from the aldryami on Halamalao, who is apparently Yelmalio although the aldryami just consider him the Sun.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Qizilbashwoman

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

But the rules for gods are always peculiar. That's the entire point of Glorantha. There's no universal Yelm cult stretching over the entire world. It's always like this everywhere. Doesn't Esrolia not even have a real Solar cult at all, just Harono, who is kind of half-assedly worshipped on the side? Fonrit in Pamaltela has Varana (spp?, I forget), but most Solar attention is from the aldryami on Halamalao, who is apparently Yelmalio although the aldryami just consider him the Sun.

That should make the GaGoG 5000 pounds.😄

[Shiningbrow]

On 4/23/2021 at 12:17 AM, David Scott said:

There is no system in the core rules to allow career changes. 

You would start as an assistant shaman in the Golden Bow subcult. The core rules don't allow occupation changes. As an assistant shaman wouldn't be able to fulfil "Members must ride and herd only horses and may not practice agriculture." They can't be herders. 

Once you're a shaman can you never be Rune Lord or Rune Priest, as to stop being a shaman you would have to loose your fetch and die.

Players are likely to follow Archer to Sun Lord or Elder. They cannot be shaman (or sorcerers).

The shaman path and the rune path are separate.

 

I presume you're referring only to Yelm as practiced in the Grazelands )as described in the book) here...???

Aldrya and Kygor Litor have no problems mixing Rune and Shamans, so I can see a part of the world where Yelmites can also mix them.

[Joerg]

I wonder whether the cults descriptions are trying to combine two quite different approaches to the identity of deities and their (source of) magic into a single game construct.

Cults (and by implication the cult objects, usually deities) have runes defining the area of their magics and myths defining the application of their magics. The deities often also have some other domains, like celestial bodies (as primary or secondary manifestation), or other features in the cosmos - storms, rivers, mountain ranges, all the way down to "sacred" places associated with a very specific instance of a myth.

And - especially when it comes to celestial representation - a single object often is claimed by quite different entities.

Vorthan (the Fronelan war god of the Red Planet) appears to be mainly an underworld deity, a death dealer. Balumbasta (the Doraddi deity that the God Learners identified as Lodril) is a fire deity which may or may not have myths about a sojourn into the Underworld, but whose main feature is the Fire Mountain (not necessarily a volcano but a mountain of fire or eternally burning rock) in the far southeast of Pamaltela. Tolat is a god of Life and Death. Shargash started out as the god of fertility and strength for the southern of the original Dara Happan sacred cities, and a celestial son of Yelm, but upon impact with Umath followed that invader into the place where he had crashed through the ground into the Underworld (or possibly worse, the Outer World) and returned changed (possibly flayed, possibly merged with Shadzor).

The Sun and Lightfore are two other over-claimed celestial objects.

Sometimes these associations migh be formed by enemies rather than the cults themselves.

 

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

But the rules for gods are always peculiar. That's the entire point of Glorantha. There's no universal Yelm cult stretching over the entire world. It's always like this everywhere. Doesn't Esrolia not even have a real Solar cult at all, just Harono, who is kind of half-assedly worshipped on the side? Fonrit in Pamaltela has Varana (spp?, I forget), but most Solar attention is from the aldryami on Halamalao, who is apparently Yelmalio although the aldryami just consider him the Sun.

Disregarding Basko's Black Sun, there is one sun in the day sky, and it usually has one regionally recognized main deity assigned to it. In places with a strong syncretic history like the extent of the Bright Empire and the placed where those syncreticisms were distributed by the Middle Sea Empire, we have the Cult of Yelm as the main recognized sun god. Main recognized doesn't necessarily mean main worshiped. Harono is a useful cult to have as a protector deity as the Esrolians have myths about how to limit his power. Yelm does provide some associate magic and receives a portion of the associated worship for that. 

 

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

That should make the GaGoG 5000 pounds.😄

If you really wanted a "one book covers it all" opus, yes it would, as you would have to describe the different local cults and their local context to make them work. As far as I am concerned, that is going to be the job that the regional supplements will have to do - if they have a local variation of the sun god (like Teshnos has Somash), those supplements will need to provide that information. If you come across deities like Calyz or Furalor who don't really have any good 1:1 or even 0.7:1 parallels in the Theyalan/God Learner Monomyth syncretic version, then that deity needs to be presented in full, otherwise detailing the differences to previously published versions might be okay if the reference is one of the foundational documents, and/or there is a freely accessible resource with at least the most pertinent points that need to be covered. (Something like RQ3 Gods of Glorantha with at best one line spell descriptions for new spells.)

We don't have any such regional supplements yet - even Sartar is still under development, and Lunar Tarsh is going to need one as much as Esrolia. The Grazelands might possibly get covered inside a scenario book the size of TSR or PP.

[None]

On 4/24/2021 at 9:32 AM, Joerg said:

I wonder whether the cults descriptions are trying to combine two quite different approaches to the identity of deities and their (source of) magic into a single game construct.

That might actually be what they're trying to do. Something I've seen done before with ... mostly alrightish results? I'd have to admit. It certainly makes things simpler and for the most part doesn't create any issues.

Except on occasion it does. Especially when you want to make something the game developers didn't fully anticipate even though it should be technically possible.

---

Anyway.

I've been wondering for some time now. Are there any known Yelmic centaur lineages? And how come Ironhoof is descended from Orlanth and why do so many centaurs has such a strong affinity even though they're part horse?

I'd imagine they'd be avid sun worshippers of some kind but so far I've found nothing.

[Richard S.]

5 hours ago, None said:

That might actually be what they're trying to do. Something I've seen done before with ... mostly alrightish results? I'd have to admit. It certainly makes things simpler and for the most part doesn't create any issues.

Except on occasion it does. Especially when you want to make something the game developers didn't fully anticipate even though it should be technically possible.

---

Anyway.

I've been wondering for some time now. Are there any known Yelmic centaur lineages? And how come Ironhoof is descended from Orlanth and why do so many centaurs has such a strong affinity even though they're part horse?

I'd imagine they'd be avid sun worshippers of some kind but so far I've found nothing.

Where are you getting that they have strong Air affinity? The Bestiary notes that both Air and Fire are common among them. And there wouldn't be any Yelmic centaur lineages since all modern ones (except maybe Ironhoof) are descendants of EWF experiments. The original centaurs went extinct in the darkness.

[None]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

The Bestiary notes that both Air and Fire are common among them.

That would be the strong air affinity. That both and are common among them. Not only . Also, that Ironhoof is for some reason descended from Orlanth, a Storm god.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Where are you getting that they have strong Air affinity? The Bestiary notes that both Air and Fire are common among them. And there wouldn't be any Yelmic centaur lineages since all modern ones (except maybe Ironhoof) are descendants of EWF experiments. The original centaurs went extinct in the darkness.

Except for Ironhoof, I suppose.

Plus there are quite a few descended from Malkion and his various wives in Old Seshnela, transformed by Luathan magic.