Solar Campaign

[None]

6 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

That's one side of the balancing act. On the other hand, if you are too grimly Bronze Age puritanical and serious in your devotion to the Pure Texts of Stafford, your game may never get the spark of life it needs to take off. Blending whimsy with anthropology will give you wings.

I have no problem with some whimsy and  depending on how you do it you can get away with quite a lot without dooming your entire campaign into becoming, well, solely a comedy. What kind of players you have affect how much is too much too.

That said, I've never ben a fan of grimdark but also found that grimdark isn't so much a matter of what you do but how you do it. The same event or thing cand e focused on and presented in such a way that the grim and dark parts get enhanced and rubbed into the audience face, but at the same time you don't have to do it that way.

Then there is that how the characters react and and relate to the world around them really affects the storys tone and can change somthing really horrifying and unpleasant into not, and the other way around and that's unreöated to ow you mske it into a comedy. Dark comedies can actually be even worse.

 

14 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Do Ducks feature in your Glorantha? (I idly wonder)

Yes. I don't know if they'd feature much in a Solar campaign due to geography and their relationship with Yelm but yes tey do and they are very Humakti.

If I ever played as a Humakti it would probably be an Illuminated Duck.

I've actually been thoinking about stating a thread at some point about the Ducks and Humakt as I understand they have a special relationship with him and know more about his secrets than most. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find out anything more about that yet.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, None said:

I have no problem with some whimsy and  depending on how you do it you can get away with quite a lot without dooming your entire campaign into becoming, well, solely a comedy. What kind of players you have affect how much is too much too.

Nobody is saying to run a Solar Campaign using Jeeves and Wooster, well Nick might be.

It is more about the social dynamics and the possible scenarios.

Domineering Great Aunts with lots of inherited power work in Solar cultures and in Esrolia. Sure, they don't have the inherited ruling power of Yelm, but they have money and social influence. Never underestimate the social influence of Great Aunts, for they can ruin your reputation, but not too much as it also affects their reputation.

The gadabouts work well for young Dara Happans, they have all the money they need, but it isn't theirs, they have to get it from their family. They have an endless array of parties to go to and adventures to go on. 

So, you don't have to use the stories as scenarios, although they can work quite well, nor do you need a scheming valet fixing things. But you can use the ideas very easily.

Spoiler

For me, though, Jeeves and Wooster fit Call of Cthulhu much better, it's in the right period, Wooster wanders through things cluelessly and unaffected, whereas Jeeves picks up the pieces and solves the mysteries. perfect.

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by soltakss

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, None said:

I thought so too. That's why I was interested in it as a potential time for a Solar Campaign.- My only two concerns was the worry that while there are things going on during this time it might not be all that developed yet (both in the way of there not being a lot of material on it and in the way there being less on the map for the players to interact with) and there being too many major figures running around in too small an area leaving no space for the players.

You can always move to the edge of the area where those major figures play out their things.

One problem with demigod ancestors is that they tend to hang around through a number of generations of less blessed people, even in the Golden Age before death or old age were a major concern for people. People may still tire of an existence and withdraw or move on, or because nobody needs replacement, a new generation sets out to take a new place for their own and establish themselves as the undying lords and managers of the place.

4 hours ago, None said:

The other concern being that its the Era Before Time. Things presumably worked differently back then due to the godworld not being the Other World yet.

Taking "wibbly wobbly, time-y wimey" to anothe level...

 

4 hours ago, None said:

Presumably the gods are more present and they might even be different from how they are after Dawn.

Definitely. Worshiping a deity resembles going to the concert of a superstar. The more privileged you are in the ranks of the followers of the deity, the better your place in the audience, and a select few may be allowed a meet and greet or some backstage insight. Or interaction with your commander in chief, or the international CEO of your branch of the global player corporation.

Rune magic might be bestowed directly, possibly as object - an arrow of light for a Sureshot, or similar.

 

4 hours ago, None said:

Rune points are also presumably more easily accessible or might work entirely different

The economy would be different. I can imagine that rune effects would be common in day to day applications.

Rituals could dominate the activities. A lot of grit would be replaced by ambient magic that is shaped by ritual.

4 hours ago, None said:

and Hero Questing would definitely be different.

Heroquesting would be creating your own godly or heroic path, possibly by taking or loaning stuff from others (including deities) and applying them in a novel way.

 

4 hours ago, None said:

Then ther' is the bit with death not existing yet and time being a lot more flexible. Not that it isn't tempting.

The experience may resemble Ground Hog Day while you are involved in courtly ritual etc., and an end to integrity of self may reset on the next cycle in a similar way, too. There may still be consequences, and if you don't mind a little weirdness, consequences can be applied before the action. Although that takes a lot of buy-in by GM and players.

Another way to look at Godtime is that it is a set of lots of spiralling paths moving up and down the major and minor cycles of that age. For your sanity, the game has a linear progression of events, but ascending or descending on the the stack of cycles, your path will intersect with other linear progressions that have a different continuity.

 

4 hours ago, None said:

If I get really ambitious with this campaign (yes, I know, planning to big too early is fraught with pitfalls) I could make this a generational campaign so that the actions of the player characters in the Ear Before Time creates myths for later player characters to interact with and use in Hero Quests.

That's not so different from dropping a distant descendant into the hero planes and having them experience the stuff.

 

Dendara/Entekos rune

4 hours ago, None said:

What? I don't think I undertand you here entirely (I'm assuming you actually mean the Earth Rune) the only time I've seen ay runes conected to Dendara is in the Guide to Glorantha were her runes are . Actually This brings this up again (I belive we spoke about it a year ago) You all keep refering to Dendara as an Earth Goddes but her runes mark her as a Sky Goddes. How come?

Just like @jajagappaI was referring to the runic halo the Gods Wall depiction of Entekos has, a circle vertically and horizontally divided into four rectangular quadrants - in itself, a marriage of and  (or , which may be why the entire book proving Entekos is not Sedenya was written).

 

4 hours ago, None said:

Now I need to ask about Ouriana, who is she and who are initited into her? Actually, I don't think she is in the Gods of Glorantha/cults book and I can't remember at the top of my head if she appears in the Guide to Glorantha so do any of you know what her runes are?

Ourania appears in the Gods of Light section in the Sourcebook, she is a thought of Dayzatar which has taken on a divine existence of her own, thus his daughter. Pretty close to what Yelmalio has to offer, I think.

 

4 hours ago, None said:

Also, since I've already asked about Lodril I think I should also ask about Dayzataar. Could anyone esplain him to me? Seeing as he is one of Yelm's brothers he should be pretty important to the Solars.

Dayzatar is the remote, pure and unsullied light beyond Yelm. When the Three Brothers shifted from sitting aside to forming a vertical axis, Dayzatar moved up into the uppermost Sky, basking in the energies of the Absolute.

His purity is such that mere physical existence is almost an insult to him. Only an extremely ascetic life-style is worthy of his cult.

There is a small priesthood of this deity, who have retreated from the normal business of the world in the meditation on wisdom, and some might be bothered to share bits of that wisdom with suitably pure petitioners.

 

4 hours ago, None said:

He also sounds like the magma when it descides to not stay underthe earth any more and erupts into an exploding volcano.

More the act of eruption. The magma itself is the body of Lodril even when he is the farmer, crafter and worker of Solar civilization. When it is not the leftover seed of Aether still splashing around in Gata's womb.

 

4 hours ago, None said:

About the city Alkoth though. Would it be possible to enter it from the living world and exit it into the underworld and the other way around?

Entering the Underworld from the Surface World via Alkoth is a viable method. And one can encounter the Underworld portion of Alkoth in the Underworld, although I think it is not an exit from the Underworld for anybody not having entered it by that way but the Shadzoring demons of the Greater Darkness, the Gray Age and the early Dawn Age.

 

4 hours ago, None said:

Knowing that the Imperator subcult of Yelm get Command Griffin I should probably also ask how common they are in Peloria and what role they play there. Somehow I doubt they are riding beasts.

Griffins are beasts of divine origin, but then so are the magical horses, or hippogriffs. Hippogriff was a daughter of King Griffon, a lesser descendant.

The Griffins of Griffin Mountain are pretty much "normal mortals", still proud and independent, but a viable target of that spell. As an apex predator, I don't see many places in human-settled Peloria where they could coexist with human activities without conflict or regular sacrifices to them.

 

4 hours ago, None said:

Also do anyone of you know anything about the Dara Happans relationship with the different Elder Races?

All the races of the Second Council victorious at Argentium Thri'ile were described as monsters at the time.

Trolls are foul creatures of Darkness, and obviously foes to be vanquished.

Elves have reforested vast tracts of Peloria once already, in the early Second Age. Even the coreligionist yelmic elves are rivals.

Dwarves share some of the goals of the Empire - stability, an orderly universe. They appear to have been allies of old.

Giants ("hecolanti") have a neutral to friendly relationship with the Dara Happans. One emperor (Sothenik) famously accompanied Gonn Orta on his way to Nida, but did not return from that adventure. That hasn't helped to build trust.

Ducks appear to be despised by the Dara Happans, possibly for additional reasons than those they invoke with other peoples. "Cursed by Yelm" etc.

Wind Children may be seen as a lewd mockery of their own winged humanoid Sky Folk.

Dragonewts are associated with the EWF, and were systematically eliminated after the fall of the Sun Dragon emperor. Hostility and fear remain.

Tusk Riders receive the usual fear, loathing and hatred they get almost everywhere.

Newtlings resemble dragonewts and may once have been allies of the river entities. Not well regarded, I think.

Beastfolk aren't native in the region. Centaurs or swan maidens might be received with mixed feelings because of their sky associations, the rest would be regarded as monsters.

 

4 hours ago, None said:

Witht he way Dara Happans are usually portrayed I half-expect them to look down on anything and everything not Dara Happa but that is while possible also a bit, well, stupid to very studid depending on how you do it and how blatant they are with it. It also feel like this presentation could very much be a result of how Orlanthi centric much of the game material is.

Dara Happans have been portrayed in various lights in RuneQuest publications. Euglyptus the Fat and Tatius the Bright have been presented as the worst that the union of decadent Lunar and Dara Happan nobility can produce. Gordius Silverus has been portrayed as a loyal follower of Fazzur Wideread.

Jotoran Longsword of the Lunar occupation administration in Pavis was haughty, skilled and ruthless.

Halcyon var Enkorth is more the bad Lunar than he is the bad Dara Happan.

 

Dara Happan exceptionalism and superiority is pretty much an inbred trait for the entire culture. Even a lowly urban latrine worker knows they are better than anyone from elsewhere because of them belonging to the city with its deity and its uplink to the Imperial Sun. If such people have a better lot than they themselves do, it is obviously because of theft and robbery their ancestors inflicted on the Dara Happan ancestors.

It takes some openness and experience to overcome these prejudices. Quite a lot of Dara Happans abroad try. A few succeed quite well. Others just are obnoxious.

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, Nevermet said:

This gets weird with the Entekosiad*, where Derdromus (probably Monster Man) imprisons Turos (probably Lodril), and/or Turos unleashes Derdromus on the world.  Of course, the Big E being what it is, it's still entirely possible Monster Man is Lodril in a skeleton costume.

Except when Monster Man is Deshkorgos, who is not Lodril. 

Guide p.678: IV-10. Deshkorgos
God of the Fourth Underworld, Keeper of the Fourth Hell. He is also called Monster Man. His task is to imprison the monsters which are behind him, for he is not human, nor ever was as we can see from his monstrous head. He wields a whip, the characteristic emblem of his office.

As distinct from Deshlotralas, who I believe is Lodril in the Underworld.

IV-8. Deshlotralas
God of the Third Underworld, Keeper of the Third Hell. He holds aloft the Bone of Power.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, None said:

What? I don't think I undertand you here entirely (I'm assuming you actually mean the Earth Rune) the only time I've seen ay runes conected to Dendara is in the Guide to Glorantha were her runes are . Actually This brings this up again (I belive we spoke about it a year ago) You all keep refering to Dendara as an Earth Goddes but her runes mark her as a Sky Goddes. How come?

And here's one of the plunges into the really deep end of Gloranthan lore (and one for which we cannot necessarily give you a concrete answer).  There are different and conflicting materials related to Dendara.

The easiest approach will be to wait for the Cults of Glorantha book to come out later this year where we have a full cult writeup of Dendara to use as a "ground zero".  Anything that's come before will be able to be ignored, used, ransacked, or whatever, knowing that for day-to-day usage you have the basics.

Until then, though, there are a lot of details that get intertwined.  Some of these are:

• Dendara may be a name or a title
• The name/title variously references: the spouse of Yelm (the good wife), a planet, the goddess Entekos (who may be the same planet, and is the goddess of Calm Air), an aspect of Ernalda in the Golden Age (i.e. an Earth goddess - the one considered acceptable to Yelm), and probably others I've forgotten
• If you go back to the RQ3 Gods of Glorantha material, her runes are Earth and Light .  She was the Sun's wife, but was also the Earth, particularly in its aspects of the community and the household (hence the Harmony Rune in the Guide).  She was not the goddess of the Crops or Fertility though (in Peloria that was Oria, aka Peloria, aka Pela, aka the Grain Goddess and/or the Land Goddess).
• The God Learners attempted to connect Ernalda and Dendara as one - IIRC they sort of succeeded, but both cults deny that they are the same
• As others have noted, the "Lunar" work by Greg, the Entekosiad, attempts to "prove" in-world that Dendara is Entekos, the air goddess, or possibly a Moon goddess. 

It's hard to provide useful summaries of all the above in thread.  The best way to plunge in is to read Glorious ReAscent of Yelm and absorb that view, particularly for a solar perspective.  Combine that with the Guide and the Glorantha Sourcebook.  And then accept that Dendara is also an Earth goddess and may just be a Mask of Ernalda, except that she won't tell you that.

 

 

[None]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Rituals could dominate the activities. A lot of grit would be replaced by ambient magic that is shaped by ritual.

I also imagine that  rituals would in general be easier to perform and mechanically I'd probably rule that you'd have more magic points than just your Pow and that you get more of

 

whatever for each sacrificed Pow  . (I'd be reluctant to remove the sacrifce Pow mechanic entirely as the game i  to some degree balanced around it.)

 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Taking "wibbly wobbly, time-y wimey" to anothe level...

 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

The experience may resemble Ground Hog Day while you are involved in courtly ritual etc., and an end to integrity of self may reset on the next cycle in a similar way, too. There may still be consequences, and if you don't mind a little weirdness, consequences can be applied before the action. Although that takes a lot of buy-in by GM and players.

Another way to look at Godtime is that it is a set of lots of spiralling paths moving up and down the major and minor cycles of that age. For your sanity, the game has a linear progression of events, but ascending or descending on the the stack of cycles, your path will intersect with other linear progressions that have a different continuity.

I would defenitely want to play around with the mutability of time in some way. It would be a shame to pace even part of a campaignin the Era before Time and not do so.

 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's not so different from dropping a distant descendant into the hero planes and having them experience the stuff.

I'm not sure if you understood what I meant or if I understood what you meant here. I was talking about the opportunity for players to create and shape myths (via their characters deeds, lives and actions) that becom Hero Quest myths for later characters after time has been created.

 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Just like @jajagappaI was referring to the runic halo the Gods Wall depiction of Entekos has, a circle vertically and horizontally divided into four rectangular quadrants - in itself, a marriage of and  (or , which may be why the entire book proving Entekos is not Sedenya was written).

At which point I would sayth at Etekos isn't Dendara but the Entekosiad muddies this up a lot as I understand?

 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dayzatar is the remote, pure and unsullied light beyond Yelm. When the Three Brothers shifted from sitting aside to forming a vertical axis, Dayzatar moved up into the uppermost Sky, basking in the energies of the Absolute.

His purity is such that mere physical existence is almost an insult to him. Only an extremely ascetic life-style is worthy of his cult.

Thinking about it isn't Dayzatar's runes , while Lodril's are and Yelm's are now meaning that Dazatar lack heat, Lodril lack light and only Yelm has both heat and light?

 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dara Happan exceptionalism and superiority is pretty much an inbred trait for the entire culture. Even a lowly urban latrine worker knows they are better than anyone from elsewhere because of them belonging to the city with its deity and its uplink to the Imperial Sun. If such people have a better lot than they themselves do, it is obviously because of theft and robbery their ancestors inflicted on the Dara Happan ancestors.

Oh, I have no problem with that and I'm not really questioning it.

It also feel perfectly Bronze Age, especially when you come from a civilization that is, how should I but it? The Babylon in a world were barabarian tribes are the norm, and you measure the worth of a civilization by things like its architectual achievemnts, the power of its ruler, how organized and orderly it is (method to achieve it nonwithstanding) and the level of hygiene and luxury the people who 'matter' can afford.

I was more commenting on how how I've sometimes felt like Dara Happa is portrayed as a whole as so arrogant they would happily insult, well anything, even if it could obviously crush them with ease. Simply because an arrogance that jumps straight into terminal stupidity.

Yes, I can't really remember any concrete example of them beeing that arrogant but it has also been an association I've carried around in my head for a few years now so it must have come from somewhere.

Personally I had just written it of as Orlanthi carricatures of the Dara Happans. The only reason I mentioned it was because I was a little worried that the cannonical stance was that they hated and antagonized the Elder Races at every oportunity simply because they weren't pure enough. Even in situations when doing so wouldn't be sensible.

Although a bit of that also comes from that I've been influenced by King of Dragon Pass into thinking that you shouldn't ever mess with the Elder Races if you can avoid it unlerss it is really nessecary.

Edit: that sdaid I was also half expecting the Dara Happans to be on somewhat cordial terms with the elves due to the Yelm cult being associated with Aldyra (although maybe that's only the Grazer version of the Yelm cult)

 

Edit Edit: Actually, I'd go so far as to say that that sense of superoiority (maybe I should call it cultural superiority) is an important part of how Dara Happans relate to and feel about themselves as a people ands view and relate to the rest of the world. I just think its one of those parts that is easy to exagerate and then they end up feeling like flat characters instead.

 

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The easiest approach will be to wait for the Cults of Glorantha book to come out later this year where we have a full cult writeup of Dendara to use as a "ground zero".

Assuming that wahtever is written there won't spawn a lot of depate and controversy in itself. 😅

But yes I do look forward to seeing several of the cults in that book and Dendara is defenitely on that list. I feel she is to important to not have gotten anything so far.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The name/title variously references: the spouse of Yelm (the good wife), a planet, the goddess Entekos

Then you also have that Dendara, Entekos and even Ernaldfa all apear on the gods wall as separate enteties. Dendara, or the good wife, also appears in Kralorea.

Edited April 5, 2021 by None

[Sir_Godspeed]

12 minutes ago, None said:

Thinking about it isn't Dayzatar's runes , while Lodril's are and Yelm's are now meaning that Dazatar lack heat, Lodril lack light and only Yelm has both heat and light?

 

That's a functional way to look at it, I'd say.

Dayzatar is the distant, spiritual, intellectual, ascetic light of the highest heavens. He is pure, but lacks the worldly presence to rule by his ascetic nature. 

Lodril is the immanent, physical, raw, embodied heat of the Earth and bodies, of life and vitality. He is fiery and strong, but lacks the elevated authority to rule by his debased nature. 

Yelm is, in Yelmic thought, obviousy, the perfect center, blending immanence and transcendence. He is majestic authority.

Another "Cold Light" deity is the "Lightfore" complex, which is a whole can of worms in itself, but basically there was a deity that guarded and helped people during the Storm Age/Darkness, who lacked Yelm's heat, but had some of his justice. This complex includes deities like Yelmalio, Elmal, Kargzant, Antirius, and probably others. Arguably they are all the same. The Sun In Winter, as it were.

Dara Happans consider it a Portion of Yelm, the part that stayed in the sky to guide and protect his people when Yelm was torn apart by the injustice of the Darkness. (They don't believe that Orlanth murdered Yelm, instead they say he, or someone analogous, murdered Murharzarm.)

Edited April 5, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[None]

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Dara Happans consider it a Portion of Yelm, the part that stayed in the sky to guide and protect his people when Yelm was torn apart by the injustice of the Darkness. (They don't believe that Orlanth murdered Yelm, instead they say he, or someone analogous, murdered Murharzarm.)

Yes I think I've heard something about that at some time.

I also remember the Dara Happan myths and the Orlanthi myths about why hunger exists (or how it came to exist) are quite different.

 

Edit: Thinking about the Orlanthi, they have a lot of wargods and Orlanth himself is one, they also has several (at least two) death cults but the Dara Happans and Solars in general, how abu them?

They don't seem to have such an abundance of war gods. I'm not sure f Yelm is one and the only ones I can think of are Shargash (who I'm guessing qualifies as a Death god of some kind too), and Polestar thwhom I know practically nothing about (I actuaslly confused Polestar with Yelmalio at one point).

Still the Dara Happans feel like a warrior cultuere in many ways, if not in the same way as the Orlanthi, and you've also told me that all of their armies have their own god who I assume is a war god.

Edit Editr. There's also Chalana Arroy who mioght actually be a sky goddess? I though she didn't any elemental affiliation.  Not that I'm surpriesd she appears among the Solars too.

Do anyone of you know what she is called among the Dara Happans and how they view and relate to her?

I might as well ask about Buserian too (who is basically Lhankor Mhy under a different name, right?). He actually feels like he fits among the sky gods more than the storm gods for some reason.

 

Edit Edit Edit: Wait, Sky Folk? Please do tell.

Edited April 5, 2021 by None

[Leingod]

1 hour ago, None said:

They don't seem to have such an abundance of war gods. I'm not sure f Yelm is one and the only ones I can think of are Shargash (who I'm guessing qualifies as a Death god of some kind too), and Polestar thwhom I know practically nothing about (I actuaslly confused Polestar with Yelmalio at one point).

Yelm-as-soldier is definitely a thing, his mythic complex has him mastering the bow and other ways of war and then handing them off to subordinates as he grows, much as he does with things like dance. There are also gods of particular weapons, like Hastatus for the spear and Ulkamoon for the club. Several past emperors are also worshiped as war gods, like Urvairinus and Kastokus. Polestar is essentially a god of officers.

[Sir_Godspeed]

11 hours ago, Leingod said:

Yelm-as-soldier is definitely a thing, his mythic complex has him mastering the bow and other ways of war and then handing them off to subordinates as he grows, much as he does with things like dance. There are also gods of particular weapons, like Hastatus for the spear and Ulkamoon for the club. Several past emperors are also worshiped as war gods, like Urvairinus and Kastokus. Polestar is essentially a god of officers.

Yeah. The archery god specifically is called Sagittus. There are probably more I can't recall.

[None]

17 hours ago, Leingod said:

Yelm-as-soldier is definitely a thing, his mythic complex has him mastering the bow and other ways of war and then handing them off to subordinates as he grows, much as he does with things like dance. There are also gods of particular weapons, like Hastatus for the spear and Ulkamoon for the club. Several past emperors are also worshiped as war gods, like Urvairinus and Kastokus. Polestar is essentially a god of officers.

 

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yeah. The archery god specifically is called Sagittus. There are probably more I can't recall.

So as a broad generalization, while the Orlanthi have more general wargods or wargods divided more by stle or what they hate the Dara Happans have wargods focused more on specific weapons or your duty and position in the Dara Happan military?

--

Looking back through the thread a bit I got the impression there are basicaly four five majour eras in Dara Happan history (although that probably hold true for most of Glorantha concidering you have 'Before Time', 'the Drakness', The Dawn and First Age', 'The Second Age', and' the Third Age').

• So Murharzarm's reign and everything around it.
• The Darkness when Yelm was dead and things were bad. (Something about the Dara Happans cowering under huge domes?)
• The First Age when the Dara Happans founded or was made part of the Bright Empire and Nysalor was created and was a thing untill Arkat, I meran Gbaji, killed him.

Actually could you tell me more about this that seems like a period with potential.

• The Second Age when the Empire of Wyrm Friends Appeared which Dara Happa didn't like and they got a dragon emperor which they also didn't like.

What was the Empire of Wyrm Friends to the Dara Happans aside from a nation of crzy people who cut their tongures in half? That is really the extent of what I know about the Wyrm Friends.

• The Third Age withe Lunar Empire.

Did I miss any period of note or special interes? Also whta is the Dara Happan view on Shamans and Sorcery (when they're not part of the Lunar Empire).

I'm assuming they have nothing but contempt for shamans but what of sorcery?

Edited April 6, 2021 by None

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, None said:

What was the Empire of Wyrm Friends to the Dara Happans aside from a nation of crzy people who cut their tongures in half? That is really the extent of what I know about the Wyrm Friends.

It's a good question. A local sect or secret society called the Dragon Emissaries claimed to have been around in the region since the late 600s, when the Spolite philosophy was dominant and orthodox yelmists don't like to talk about it. These people or entities then get mixed up in the emerging Golden Dragon movement by 800, but historical records of this era are fragmentary and often seem to have been successively purged by careful editors.

After Dara Happa Rises there was a radically anti-EWF dragonslayer movement incorporating Carmanian / Western insights. The important people in this movement eventually break with the Carmanians and are ultimately wiped out in the Kill, taking their insights to the fire with them. Historical records around this era are equally fragmentary, with a lot undoubtedly lost or "misplaced" in the Carmanian occupations and other Kill upheavals. 

The lunar relationship (if any) to dragon forces remains tantalizingly unclear. If I were doing it today, I'd insert strong Kralorelan elements to better tie the lozenge together in complex diversity, possibly making the Golden Dragon a kind of "joint project" between them and EWF and setting up larger conflicts between the eastern God Learner complex and their estranged but magically capable Carmanian cousins with EWF and Dara Happa stuck in the middle. But that's not today.

[Nick Brooke]

For what it’s worth, the Dara Happan encounters with Sorcery included the late First Age Brithini, implacable foes who spawned the manipulative destroyer of their Bright Empire, then the Carmanians, at various times their neighbours, allies, rivals and finally conquerors. Probably not a very positive relationship, overall.

(I leave aside fragmentary mentions of Western Logicians possibly affiliated with YarGan the Terrible’s invasion of Pelanda, because (a) Pelanda not DH, and (b) life is too short to parse the Entekosiad again)

[scott-martin]

6 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

(I leave aside fragmentary mentions of Western Logicians possibly affiliated with YarGan the Terrible’s invasion of Pelanda, because (a) Pelanda not DH, and (b) life is too short to parse the Entekosiad again)

Carmanian Sorcery has got to look extremely strange from a modern Rokar-centered perspective. Awful unreconstructed influences. Strange gods. The works.

This then of course becomes one of the matrices of Lunar Sorcery, whereupon hangs at least one joke.

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, None said:

• The Darkness when Yelm was dead and things were bad. (Something about the Dara Happans cowering under huge domes?)
•  

At least a couple cataclysms hit Peloria during the Storm/Dark Age. During this period, the original Golden Age Empire (the Decapolis of Murharzarm) gradually diminishes, almost one city by one. 

I want to note that everything below is likely heavily interpreted, misinterpreted and reinterpreted (as well as re-misinterpreted) by Dara Happans scholars with different motivations. So reader beware:

First off there's a huge Flood that covers the Pelorian bowl. It kills off a lot of people, but there's a Ark story, where Emperor Anaxial builds a big friggin boat and loads it up with all the "righteous" survivors and the various animals and plants the Dara Happans know about. However, to explain why bad people exist afterwards, they include a story about how one woman who was not among the accepted number is allowed onto the boat and marries someone on the boat (could be Anaxial himself, I forget). This Flood coincides with flooding elsewhere in Genertela, and is part of a general trend of the Sea Gods being the most powerful at this time. Eventually they are beaten back, but that sorta happens off-screen for the Dara Happans, I think. They mostly ride it out. 

Then, after the Flood recedes, the Dara Happans resettle their cities (arguably, this can be read as them settling entirely new cities and claiming they were more ancient, but that's more mythical deconstruction for you). I believe there's some talk about immigrants from elsewhere, but I could be mixing this up with the Gray Age. Also, during this period, the supposed original home city of the Moon Goddess, Mernita, is crushed by the Blue Moon that crashes (after this point there is no moon until the Red Moon rises). The Dara Happans see this as divine punishment commanded by the Emperor, but they disagree a bit on exactly how. The Lunars obviously have different views on it.

Anyway, after a while of renewed imperialism, the dominion of the Sea Gods is replaced with that of the Storm Gods, and this means both Vingkotlings to the south, as well as the Glacier to the north. Thus begins the Ice Age. During this time a large ice sheets creeps over central and western Genertela, and Dara Happ is caught in the middle of it. Emperor Kestinoros refuses to give way to it, and dies (also losing another city) Then the new emperor, Manarlavus comes up with the plan to basically let the ice sheet grow over them, basically giving them a dome inside. 

It's during this period that "Six Ages: Ride Like The Wind" takes place. It follows the Riders/Hyalorings/Hyalorong, who in the game are stated to be citizens of the Dara Happan city of Nivorah who refused to believe in the whole "Dome"-plan, and instead left their city and became nomads/semi-nomads. Thus they have a Solar pantheon, but quite different social values. Another subgroup of Nivorans, called the Wheels, retain more Dara Happan values (patriarchalism, aristocratic social divisions, and are chariot-focused rather than horse-riders) and are rivals of the Riders. 

At some point the Roof of Manarlavus is broken, and the interior is flooded with barbarians and attackers. The dude who defends Dara Happa becomes the new Emperor, and goes with the Cold Sun (Antirius/Yelmalio) to the Hill of Gold, and that whole myth plays out. 

- After this point, there's a dynasty of foreigners ruling Dara Happa (the Dara Happans gloss it as a single Emperor, called Manimat, but the actual people they belonged to (the Manimati, Stork-worshippers from Darjiin, iirc.) count him as several individuals *I THINK*. 

- After that ends, we get Kazkurtum/The Empty Emperor, which is basically the Dara Happan way of saying the Greater Darkness and the absolute collapse of large-scale societies. Survivors huddle in ruins or abandon settled life altogether. Nomads and hunter-gatherers are more successful. Apparently, at the Dawn, Raibanth was down to seven families (although we have no idea how large each "family" was, of course, though could be large noble dynasties, although somehow I doubt it, even though they became so later).

---

I didn't know where to put this, but also: during the Golden and likely Early Storm Ages, the Dara Happans not only used dinosaurs as mounts and livestock, but also had large, flightless birds they rode. This was before horses even existed. They may also have had large flying birds, I don't know, and then there's the slightly conspiratorial idea that the original population of Dara Happa might have had sorta bird-like qualities themselves, but that's more a neat idea than built directly from textual references.

[Leingod]

54 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

(I leave aside fragmentary mentions of Western Logicians possibly affiliated with YarGan the Terrible’s invasion of Pelanda, because (a) Pelanda not DH, and (b) life is too short to parse the Entekosiad again)

It's true that Pelanda isn't Dara Happa, but early Dara Happan history and culture was heavily influenced by Pelanda. And most relevantly here, The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm (pg. 25) appropriates the Pelandan myth of Daxdarius slaying YarGan in single combat, only attributing the deed to Urvairinus rather than the Pelandan Daxdarius (in fact, Urvairinus himself seems to be a composite of several different militarily successful deities/rulers all rolled into one figure) and calling YarGan "Arganum."

[Sir_Godspeed]

14 minutes ago, Leingod said:

It's true that Pelanda isn't Dara Happa, but early Dara Happan history and culture was heavily influenced by Pelanda. And most relevantly here, The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm (pg. 25) appropriates the Pelandan myth of Daxdarius slaying YarGan in single combat, only attributing the deed to Urvairinus rather than the Pelandan Daxdarius (in fact, Urvairinus himself seems to be a composite of several different militarily successful deities/rulers all rolled into one figure) and calling YarGan "Arganum."

Isn't there something about the Dara Happan writing system evidently being borrowed from Pelanda?

As you showed with YarGan/Arganum, there's at least a trend of Dara Happan names/names of people in Dara Happan myths seem to quite often be derived from Pelandan ideograms. (Buserian, Oria, and probably others).

[Leingod]

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't there something about the Dara Happan writing system evidently being borrowed from Pelanda?

As you showed with YarGan/Arganum, there's at least a trend of Dara Happan names/names of people in Dara Happan myths seem to quite often be derived from Pelandan ideograms. (Buserian, Oria, and probably others).

Dunno about that, though it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. Dara Happa has a long history of cribbing notes from its neighbors and either passing them off as its own or at least claiming they did it best. See for another example hoplite warfare, whose invention is attributed to Daxdarius.

[scott-martin]

8 minutes ago, Leingod said:

calling YarGan "Arganum."

That's super hot stuff. Going to look for a lost figure behind Spol now, YarGan YarGar, once the wellspring of "a large pocket of worship in Peloria" and ultimately Fronela. First he lost his Truth and then he lost his realm (a kind of northern holy country), becoming one of those lost gods who vanished at Castle Blue. The Xentha / Xemela linguistic link is close to a simple coincidence.

[Nevermet]

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

That's super hot stuff. Going to look for a lost figure behind Spol now, YarGan YarGar, once the wellspring of "a large pocket of worship in Peloria" and ultimately Fronela. First he lost his Truth and then he lost his realm (a kind of northern holy country), becoming one of those lost gods who vanished at Castle Blue. The Xentha / Xemela linguistic link is close to a simple coincidence.

Trying to unpack all this always risks the violation of Brooke's Law* stated above: "life is too short to parse the Entekosiad again".

 

I spent a summer trying to wrap my head around the mythology of Spol.  I made some headway, but... wow.

 

* Surely, he has more than 1 law about Glorantha, but that's the one relevant here 😉

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, None said:

basicaly four five majour eras in Dara Happan history (although that probably hold true for most of Glorantha concidering you have 'Before Time', 'the Drakness', The Dawn and First Age', 'The Second Age', and' the Third Age').

I'd probably divide it as this:

Before Time (through Great Darkness)

• Golden Age of Murharzarm
• The Decline - series of Emperors who get successively weaker
• Empty Emperor - but Yelm summons his enemies to Hell and conquers the Underworld (the World Turned Upside Down)

Silver Age (still Pre-Time) to early 1st Age

• Horse Lords of Jenarong

mid- to late-1st Age: Dara Happa Reascended

• Khordavu through fall of the Bright Empire

early- to mid-2nd Age: Rise of the Dragon Sun

• DH goes into Decline (something of a repetition here of the God Time Decline)
• Eclipsed by EWF (echoes of the Empty Emperor)

late 2nd Age to early 3rd Age: Defeat of the Dragon Sun

• Three Brothers period - defeat of the EWF
• Brief DH rejuvenation
• Eclipsed by Carmania (another Dark period)

1200s: Darkness Defeated

• DH rises along with the Moon Rise
• Brief DH resurgence with Yelmgatha
• Eclipsed by Lunar Empire

mid to late 3rd Age: DH within the Empire

• New Horse Lord period under Sheng
• Alkoth strong (echoes again of the Empty Emperor and World Turned Upside Down)
• DH divided - subservient to restored Lunar Empire

 

 

[John Biles]

12 hours ago, None said:

 

• The Second Age when the Empire of Wyrm Friends Appeared which Dara Happa didn't like and they got a dragon emperor which they also didn't like.

What was the Empire of Wyrm Friends to the Dara Happans aside from a nation of crzy people who cut their tongures in half? That is really the extent of what I know about the Wyrm Friends.

The Empire of Wyrm Friends started out as a religious movement exploring Draconic mysticism.  As typically happens in Glorantha with any kind of mysticism, they managed to take the train to crazy town, while simultaneously becoming too entangled in the mundane world to achieve true Draconic enlightenment.   They began corrupting the Orlanthi religion and taking over the Orlanthi lands and trying to missionize/conquer/mutate their neighbors.  They took over Dara Happa for a while; the leader of the Golden Dragon Society passed the Ten Tests and became Emperor until a new one rose and killed him.

By that point, the EWF was riding the crazy train and trying to carry out  a plan to turn about half of Genertla into a giant dragon.  This would have killed a LOT of people.

Eventually, the Dragonnewts realized the EWF was beyond saving and wiped it out.

The EWF operated on a pyramid scheme; the more people you had converted, the more power you got.  People they converted fed some power to you.  This let top dog EWF people do huge things.

 

[None]

On 4/6/2021 at 2:22 PM, None said:

Looking back through the thread a bit I got the impression there are basicaly four five majour eras in Dara Happan history (although that probably hold true for most of Glorantha concidering you have 'Before Time', 'the Drakness', The Dawn and First Age', 'The Second Age', and' the Third Age').

• So Murharzarm's reign and everything around it.
• The Darkness when Yelm was dead and things were bad. (Something about the Dara Happans cowering under huge domes?)
• The First Age when the Dara Happans founded or was made part of the Bright Empire and Nysalor was created and was a thing untill Arkat, I meran Gbaji, killed him.

Actually could you tell me more about this that seems like a period with potential.

• The Second Age when the Empire of Wyrm Friends Appeared which Dara Happa didn't like and they got a dragon emperor which they also didn't like.

What was the Empire of Wyrm Friends to the Dara Happans aside from a nation of crzy people who cut their tongures in half? That is really the extent of what I know about the Wyrm Friends.

• The Third Age withe Lunar Empire.

Did I miss any period of note or special interes? Also whta is the Dara Happan view on Shamans and Sorcery (when they're not part of the Lunar Empire).

 

22 hours ago, scott-martin said:

God Learner

The God Learners! How could I forget about them. They were around during the First or Second Age too and were probably something the Dara Happans and Oerlabthi could actually agree about.

Did anyone like the God Learners?

22 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

For what it’s worth, the Dara Happan encounters with Sorcery included the late First Age Brithini, implacable foes who spawned the manipulative destroyer of their Bright Empire, then the Carmanians, at various times their neighbours, allies, rivals and finally conquerors. Probably not a very positive relationship, overall.

That does sound like it could lead to severl complicated relationships.

22 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Carmanian Sorcery has got to look extremely strange from a modern Rokar-centered perspective. Awful unreconstructed influences. Strange gods. The works.

This then of course becomes one of the matrices of Lunar Sorcery, whereupon hangs at least one joke.

I'm also beginng to thnk I need to know a bit more about the Carmanians concidering how much it seems they interacted with the Dara Happans. Are they sun worshipers too?

21 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

However, to explain why bad people exist afterwards, they include a story about how one woman who was not among the accepted number is allowed onto the boat and marries someone on the boat (could be Anaxial himself, I forget).

This implies the Dara Happans belive persnality (or at the very least bad character) is hereditary.

21 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Gray Age.

The what now?

21 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

At some point the Roof of Manarlavus is broken, and the interior is flooded with barbarians and attackers.

Wait. Was there only one dome orover all of Dara 'Happa or where there one per city? I thought it was the later.

21 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

During this time a large ice sheets creeps over central and western Genertela

I should probably ask about the Dara Happan view and relationship with Valind now even though I think I already know the answer.

Does the way the Dara Happans handle him differ from the Orlanthi? Like how it is with Daga?

21 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

becomes the new Emperor, and goes with the Cold Sun (Antirius/Yelmalio) to the Hill of Gold, and that whole myth plays out.

Which is in Orlanthi eyes where and the  reason as to why Yelmalio has no fire. The way you've talked about Antarius beeing the cold sun makes it seem like he always been that way in Dara Happan eyes and I've defenitely never heard of any Dara Happan emperor being present at the Hill of Gold.

21 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Apparently, at the Dawn, Raibanth was down to seven families (although we have no idea how large each "family" was, of course, though could be large noble dynasties, although somehow I doubt it, even though they became so later).

My tinterpretation would be that when they say Raibanth (which by the way I just whantto jake sure, Raibanth is the Dara Happan capital, yes?) was down to only seven families they probably only count noble families.

I think I've seen this with the Orlanthi too but I would say the Dara Happans in particular doesn't acknowledge anyone who isn't a noble man as anything more than parts of the backdrop for the most part.

Kind of how the in the Odyssey the story (to my memory) doesn't really care about how Odysseus men die along the journey. It only really cares abouyt Odysseus and how other people and their actions and events around him matter to him.

20 hours ago, Leingod said:

It's true that Pelanda isn't Dara Happa, but early Dara Happan history and culture was heavily influenced by Pelanda. And most relevantly here, The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm (pg. 25) appropriates the Pelandan myth of Daxdarius slaying YarGan in single combat, only attributing the deed to Urvairinus rather than the Pelandan Daxdarius (in fact, Urvairinus himself seems to be a composite of several different militarily successful deities/rulers all rolled into one figure) and calling YarGan "Arganum."

If we're talking about Before Time though there can easily be several mutually exclusive histories running side to side with each other without a proble. That's one of the fun tings about that period.

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'd probably divide it as this:

Thank you, this is really useful list.

Although now I also need tto ask about the Horse Lords of Jenarong. It doesn't sound like a period that has whast I'm looking for but its still better to at least know a little.

Picking a period ( or even several periods) to place the capaign in feels like it can be a prettyt though choise.

Edited April 7, 2021 by None

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, None said:

The God Learners! How could I forget about them. They were around during the First or Second Age too and were probably something the Dara Happans and Oerlabthi could actually agree about.

Did anyone like the God Learners?

God Learners were arguably THE defining feature of Second Age Glorantha, at least anywhere near the coast. The Dara Happans were therefore pretty shielded from the GLs, being in the continental interior. 

However, the expansion of the GLs into Fronela did cause a Fronelan Malkioni noble and his army to march into exile, and invade Peloria from the west. They founded Carmania. 

1 hour ago, None said:

I'm also beginng to thnk I need to know a bit more about the Carmanians concidering how much it seems they interacted with the Dara Happans. Are they sun worshipers too?

22 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Carmanians started off as Fronelan Malkioni (of a different school than the God Learners) and when they settled around Oronin and Pelanda, they adopted the patronage of a goddess there (she became the mother of their first Shah/Emperor, Karmanos). 

From that point on, they more or less take the shape of a dualistic theistic society that still practices sorcery. So they worship Idovanus, the Lord of Wisdom (and usually associated with light), and placate, but do not worship, GanEstoro/Ganesatarus, the Lord of Lies (and associated with darkness). 

In addition on them, the Carmanians also worship, if I recall correctly, the Pelandan pantheon, sometimes called the Jernotian High Gods, of which there are seven. 

They have pretty clear and strong influences from Sassanid Persia, with their religion drawing inspiration from Zoroastrianism, and their social classes drawing names from Persian history (their Wizard Caste are called Magi/Viziers for example, and their ruler is the Shah, they also are famous for heavy cavalry, along Cataphract lines.) 

The Carmanians ruled over Dara Happa for a while during the Third Age, iirc, and during that period, they tried to combine Yelm and Idovanus, I believe (drawing on vaguely remembered Fortunate Succession passages here, I could be wrong), but it didn't really last. 

1 hour ago, None said:

The what now?

22 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The Gray Age was the period of time after the Devil was destroyed/Chaos defeated, and immediately before the Sun rose from the Underworld. I believe it's synonymous with the Silver Age. It's sort of an inbetween-period between the God Age and Time (but still counts as God Age, I think?). Society is barely clinging on, on the brink of extinction, but supernatural heroes are still around doing great feats. Very post-apocalyptic. 

1 hour ago, None said:

Wait. Was there only one dome orover all of Dara 'Happa or where there one per city? I thought it was the later.

22 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I could be wrong, but I believe there was only one dome. It was more oblong-shaped, since it was shaped by an iron ram in the north cleaving the glacier in twain, I believe, but honestly I could be misremembering. 

1 hour ago, None said:

This implies the Dara Happans belive persnality (or at the very least bad character) is hereditary.

22 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Oh, big time. From a Dara Happan perspective, the Orlanthi they are fighting now aren't much different from the Storm barbarians they fought in the God Age. 

However, in fairness to the Dara Happans, this notion of thinking personality as inheritable was also very common in real history. Lots of ancient, medieval, and even fairly recent texts talk about different regions and ethnic groups having different "temperaments" and "mentalities", etc. 

Groups in Glorantha also do this thing where the reuse ancient names for ethnic groups when the encounter new groups that vaguely fit the description from their old stories, too, so it might seem like the same foreign enemy comes around every few centuries, but in reality it's a completely different group. Romans and Greeks also did this a lot, IRL. 

This also brings to mind that the current inhabitant of Dara Happa might not have a whole lot in common with its God Age inhabitants, besides the name. But that's speculative.
 

 

1 hour ago, None said:

I should probably ask about the Dara Happan view and relationship with Valind now even though I think I already know the answer.

Does the way the Dara Happans handle him differ from the Orlanthi? Like how it is with Daga?

Ironically, the Dara Happans have a lot more to do with Valind than most Orlanthi, at least the ones from south of Peloria. 

Most of Peloria has pretty harsh winters. Yuthuppa is COLD. They don't like "Valindum/us", obviously. One of the most popular things the Lunars ever did was arrange an annual heroquest to go into the Glacier and beat up Valind to force milder winters. 

1 hour ago, None said:

Which is in Orlanthi eyes where and the  reason as to why Yelmalio has no fire. The way you've talked about Antarius beeing the cold sun makes it seem like he always been that way in Dara Happan eyes and I've defenitely never heard of any Dara Happan emperor being present at the Hill of Gold.

22 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yes, those are definitely very different narratives, but that's the God Time for you. Several things can be true at once. Or maybe not. No one knows. There are other myths about the Hill of Gold too. It's a massive pilgrimage destination for several cultures. 

1 hour ago, None said:

My tinterpretation would be that when they say Raibanth (which by the way I just whantto jake sure, Raibanth is the Dara Happan capital, yes?) was down to only seven families they probably only count noble families.

I think I've seen this with the Orlanthi too but I would say the Dara Happans in particular doesn't acknowledge anyone who isn't a noble man as anything more than parts of the backdrop for the most part.

Kind of how the in the Odyssey the story (to my memory)

doesn't really care about how Odysseus men die along the journey. It only really cares abouyt Odysseus and how other people and their actions and events around him matter to him.

Well, sorta. The thing is, the Guide actually gives us very specific survival numbers of Orlanthi and other groups around Dragon Pass at the Dawn of Time. Each survival site (cave, fortress, hideout, etc.) number in the high dozens or very low hundreds. 

In this context, Raibanth having seven (extended) families numbering perhaps something like 50-200 individuals squatting around the central temples or along the river, is entirely plausible. 

I honestly doubt there was much slavery going on at that point: it just wouldn't have been economically feasible. There might've been class distinctions, admittedly, but when everyone is barely clinging by for survival by the skin of their teeth, even that becomes less likely. But yeah, we just have no idea. I can imagine similar numbers for Yuthuppa.

Paradoxically, Alkoth might've been doing pretty well, all things considered. But then "doing well" possibly entailed some pretty dark pacts with underworld gods and some pretty terrible rites, so that might've not been a better alternative. Keep in mind, that by the time the Orlanthi reached Dara Happa, they genuinely did not recognize the Alkothi as human beings, or at the very least did not see them as the same kind of people as the rest of Dara Happa. They were by all accounts basically demonic at that point, whatever that actually entails (though not Chaotic). 

Raibanth is the "de facto" capital of Dara Happa, mostly because that's where the Footstool of Yelm is, so that's where the Emperor is usually (or always?) crowned, and that's where the Gods Wall is (the giant cliffside-inscription of One Hundred Dara Happan Gods). But strictly speaking, each of the Tripolis are city-states unto themselves. 

1 hour ago, None said:

If we're talking about Before Time though there can easily be several mutually exclusive histories running side to side with each other without a proble. That's one of the fun tings about that period.

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Absolutely!

1 hour ago, None said:

Although now I also need tto ask about the Horse Lords of Jenarong. It doesn't sound like a period that has whast I'm looking for but its still better to at least know a little.

Picking a period ( or even several periods) to place the capaign in feels like it can be a prettyt though choise.

At the Dawn, Dara Happa, and most of Peloria, was largely de-urbanized, and most of the survivors were either hunter-gatherers, or nomads. Of these nomads the horse riders were the most succesful. 

Contrary to your first impressions (or at least mine), these were not foreign invaders or anything, these were genuine, real-article former Dara Happans who'd adopted the nomadic lifestyle (like the Hyalorings we mentioned earlier). So when they ride back in to take over the cities again, they have a pretty decent claim, all things considered. Modern Dara Happans see this kinda like a foreign occupation though.

The Jenarong was one such horse nomad coalition/tribe/dynasty, and they are the most prominent, but there were several others all over Peloria. They re-instated the status of Emperor with new rites (as well as they could, and with their own ideas). 

They're "barbaric", quite aloof and demanding tribute more than actively ruling according to conservative Dara Happan values. I suppose you could argue that they kinda view the urban/sedentary population as their serfs more than anything, but even that's not quite true: they still recognized and elevated direct descendance from Yelm, for example. (The first Jenarong Emperor honored the Seven Families of Raibanth with nobility, and created a separate class of immigrants to be commoners).

The end of the Jenarong dynasty is when the Glorious Reascent is written, to legitimize the new Dara Happan dynasty (Khordavu and descendants) that rises and in many ways positions itself as a more authentic "native" Dara Happan dynasty (even if that's difficult to measure).

The Horse Nomads are thrown out of the Pelorian bowl with World Council help (Orlanthi, Trolls, Elves, Dwarfs, etc.) and the Horse Nomads become the ancestors of modern Pentans (or at least part of them, mixing with those already there, but Pent was almost completely uninhabited prior to this). Pentans have never forgotten about their ancestral homelands to the west, and their birthright. (The most decisive battle during this expulsion of nomads is called Argentum Thri'ile, iirc, which @Joerg has mentioned before)

 Then comes the whole Bright Empire deal.

As always, my comments are subject to poor memory and incorrect interpretations!

Edited April 7, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I believe there was only one dome. It was more oblong-shaped, since it was shaped by an iron ram in the north cleaving the glacier in twain, I believe, but honestly I could be misremembering. 

One Dome to rule them all. 😉  Effectively like a great inverted boat shape under the ice.  Antirius/Yelmalio was the Sun under the dome, a god of cold light, but no heat.  But Lodril was in the ground and helped to keep the earth somewhat warm.

9 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Most of Peloria has pretty harsh winters. Yuthuppa is COLD.

Think Mississippi Valley in the US - hot summers, very cold winters.  Yuthuppa has winters like Minneapolis.  Elz Ast along the White Sea has winters like Duluth, MN.

12 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The Jenarong was one such horse nomad coalition/tribe/dynasty, and they are the most prominent, but there were several others all over Peloria. They re-instated the status of Emperor with new rites (as well as they could, and with their own ideas). 

They are very similar to the 3rd Age Grazelanders, except IIRC their warriors rode chariots.  (The horses may have been smaller, or perhaps were just considered herd beasts, not steeds.)