Backford Aeolian Campaign

[jajagappa]

19 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

The Backfordians have a specialty aged cheese similar to hardened Dutch gouda made especially for the earth priestesses in Notchet.

Now, now - we all know the best cheeses in Glorantha come from Imther, not the Holy Country! 

Even the Red Emperor has been known to partake of Imtherian cheese.

 

[Erol of Backford]

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Red Emperor has been known to partake of Imtherian cheese

He's of chaos and cannot know real quality. His taste of chesses are hindered by the texture of maggots...

[jajagappa]

41 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

He's of chaos and cannot know real quality. His taste of chesses are hindered by the texture of maggots...

Well, yes, there is that... but even the nobles of the Holy Country prize the finest Imtherian cheeses with their fine marbled veins and many flavors, and leave the local offerings to the farmers.  🤔

Even the LM temple in the City of Wonders admits to such as compiled in their famed Guide to Glorantha: "Imther is a petty kingdom of rugged Orlanthi woodsmen, skilled cheese makers..."

Edited October 27, 2022 by jajagappa

[Erol of Backford]

16 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Even the LM temple in the City of Wonders admits to such as compiled in their famed Guide to Glorantha: "Imther is a petty kingdom of rugged Orlanthi woodsmen, skilled cheese makers..."

Where is the source for this... "false news" as the Mars Cheese Castle bulletin board says that Schuler's Restaurant and Pub just across the Syphon won top awards at the Sartar Dairy Association's harvest fair...

[Erol of Backford]

We had spoken about the depth of the Syphon Valley in the past.  Curious as to what would be Earthly examples of the roads/pathways that take Heorlings form the top of the Heortland Plateau down to the levels of the five (5) rivers that cut through it at prominent towns? The road up to the Intercontinental Divide at Rocky Mt. National Park comes to mind, the valley there is well over a mile wide in most places and widens as it is further from the the Divide. Obviously the landscape would be more lush than in the 2nd clip but when I think on Snake Pipe Hollow, 22 Turns comes to mind. The elevation change down to the Hollow many be less than at the Heortland Plateau but the switch-backing would be similar no?

Marzeel River - Smithstone

Solthi River - Jansholm

Syphon River - Backford

Bullflood River - Durengard

Mintho River - Duchamp

 

 

[Erol of Backford]

Because his retinue was small, Rikard needed to use diplomatic skills to maintain that support, and married the daughter of a leading Aeolian noble family, and encouraged his retainers to do the same. Mr. Richard - Well of Daliath

So who did he and his retainers marry? Do we know any names, places, are the Aeolian noble families detailed anywhere?

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

So who did he and his retainers marry? Do we know any names, places, are the Aeolian noble families detailed anywhere?

In the Stafford Campaign (p78), the wife of the King is given as Igraine.  However the King is given as Uther so it's clearly not canon.  FWIW IMO Uther was a better name than Richard the Tiger-Hearted.

[jajagappa]

20 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So who did he and his retainers marry? Do we know any names, places, are the Aeolian noble families detailed anywhere?

19 hours ago, metcalph said:

In the Stafford Campaign (p78), the wife of the King is given as Igraine.

I stayed with Igraine for the Heortland material (though that of course is subject to change until it's published).  

Aside from the unpublished Heortland content, no, those are not detailed anywhere although you could draw from the HQ Voices content for the Esvulari (which gives one minor noble family).

[Erol of Backford]

On 11/7/2022 at 10:35 PM, metcalph said:

In the Stafford Campaign (p78), the wife of the King is given as Igraine.  However the King is given as Uther so it's clearly not canon.  FWIW IMO Uther was a better name than Richard the Tiger-Hearted.

Uther / Uhtred sounds good to me but isn't Richard the Gloranthian entry for Mr. Richard? I actually like Richard better than Uther...

[metcalph]

48 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Uther / Uhtred sounds good to me but isn't Richard the Gloranthian entry for Mr. Richard? I actually like Richard better than Uther...

 

The problem with Rikard is that while Uther sounds too Pendragon, changing the name to a thinly disguised knockoff of one of the better known Kings of England is a leap in the wrong direction. 

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

is a leap in the wrong direction

Its the right direction for my tastes.

I must admit that the Tradetalk 05 material by Mr. Baumgartner on the Holy Country as well as that of Tradetalk 12 on the Heortland by Mr. Galeotti and Mr. Stafford appeal more to me than the Bronze-Age settings discussed. Our Glorantha is early chain and kite shields.

Go West!

Edited November 10, 2022 by Erol of Backford

[Erol of Backford]

Which of the towns in Heortland would be most like Bebbanburg from the Last Kingdom series, if any. As I recall its mostly a wooden stockade. Regardless of it being near to an ocean, could be a river or lake, as most towns were in ancient days...

 

[Erol of Backford]

On 7/17/2022 at 8:29 AM, jajagappa said:

The lake in the Footprint is the Toe Hole where Larnste's big toe landed, and is the place Larnste was bitten.  The area around is the most chaotic area.  It's also where the Blood of Larnste burned its way all the way to Hell, so the lake effectively 'hides' the hole.  Later the Syphon River followed that path, filling the lake before then plunging into the Underworld.

Let's say the hole Hell is not 100% filled with water but has visible sides similar to a waterfall in the attached clip. Characters could climb up or down a portion of the way to the Underworld? Guessing Hell Crack is similar? How far vertically would the distance be?

Are there parachutes in Glorantha or would there be no air in the Underworld so a parachute of sorts wouldn't reduce falling time regardless?

Wouldn't an air elemental be able to carry you up or down or would they not function in a vacuum as well?

If the entire hole to the Underworld is filled with water could an Undine not "bubble you" and take you up or down the Syphon as it flows into the Underworld?

Once in the Underworld would a boat float in the River Styx?

Edited November 27, 2022 by Erol of Backford

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

How far vertically would the distance be?

I don't think "distance" is relevant here.  I'd probably describe it more like falling for hours - maybe even a day and a night, though of course those concepts have no meaning in the Underworld.

If you fall in, you are effectively "dead".

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Wouldn't an air elemental be able to carry you up or down or would they not function in a vacuum as well?

It's not about a "vacuum".  I would certainly allow an air or water elemental to carry you in.  First, how long did you summon them for?  Unless it was well extended, they likely disappear at some point - and quite possibly they "die" too on entering the Underworld and so can no longer carry you.  

As for carrying you out, well there happen to be guardians like Humakt, Monster Man, and many, many others whose job it is to keep dead things in Hell.  The only things that I think can reasonably "escape" out of Hell through the Toe Hole along the Syphon are things native to Hell (i.e. demons, devils, certain Hell-born trolls, or similar), or Heroes who have learned the Heroic Escape (i.e. Ethilrist could do so).

As noted in the Guide p.162: "Many other monstrous things and beings are often found about the mouths of the Underworld, attracted or supported by the stale air of Death which lurks here. They are not really guardians, even though they fulfill the function of keeping lesser beings from entering or leaving."

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Characters could climb up or down a portion of the way to the Underworld?

Sure, why not!  But,... I'd populate such a cavern with little devils and the like who have a maniacal focus on sending things that fall in down into the Underworld.

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Once in the Underworld would a boat float in the River Styx?

Again, why not.  But, you really, really don't want to fall in yourself, and that's a danger.  I like to play that the Styx does things to your soul and personality, like eating away your memory, your magic, etc.  As the "Garrotte of the Gods", the Styx is pure Death - if you land in it, you may simply die immediately.  If you don't, then each round you're in it, you lose your memory of skills and spells, then when those are gone, your INT and POW, and finally just your bones are left.

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The only things that I think can reasonably "escape" out of Hell through the Toe Hole along the Syphon are things native to Hell (i.e. demons, devils, certain Hell-born trolls, or similar), or Heroes who have learned the Heroic Escape (i.e. Ethilrist could do so).

Is this Heroic Escape detailed anywhere?

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

If you don't, then each round you're in it, you lose your memory of skills and spells, then when those are gone, your INT and POW, and finally just your bones are left.

If the PC's are in the River Styx Ferry (Acheron) they'd be OK no? Also what would be the price required by the Ferryman (Charon)?

Could Charon take you back up the Syphon to the Toe Hole in the Acheron assuming those river connect and if so what might be the task(s) he'd ask the PC's to do for him on Glorantha and how might the failure to do so curse the PC's

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As for carrying you out, well there happen to be guardians like Humakt, Monster Man, and many, many others whose job it is to keep dead things in Hell.

Why would normal guardians who are there to stop the dead from leaving stop you from leaving Hell if you are alive? Or does it default to anyone entering Hell becoming deceased automatically? Are they all just simply jealous of the PC's being alive?

 

[JRE]

I see a difference between dead people in Hell, and live people who go bodily into Hell. Probably it is slightly easier getting out if you did not get officially killed, as then Hell is not your place. But many things can kill you and move you from embodied to normal dead.

That difference is why still some people make an effort to go to Hell with their bodies, though I would say Magasta's whirlpool and Hellcrack are better entry points than a Chaotic cesspool as Larnste's footprint, as we know of people using the other two, even if they are far away, but I know of no example of using that particular entrance. 

Styx has power over gods and the dead (maybe it has power only on dead gods, which is most but not all of them...), but I am not sure it has such an effect on embodied mortals. Another reason to go with your body, if you want to bring back souvenirs, such as flasks of Styx water.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

I see a difference between dead people in Hell, and live people who go bodily into Hell … But many things can kill you and move you from embodied to normal dead.

But aren’t the normal dead bodily in Hell? Sisyphus can push his rock up his hill no problem, so how would a supposedly living “visitor” to Hell persuade any of its officials that they are solid flesh — so alive — and Sisyphus is just an insubstantial ghost? The bodily visitor wants to be able to interact with Hell’s furniture in the usual way — no bodily hands going right through “spiritual” rocks, right?

(Yes, this does seem to leave the normal dead with too many bodies. Handwaving it with burial or cremation doesn’t really make that go away. But that’s the least of their problems, right?)

I know he may not seem to be the most reliable narrator, but surely Ethilrist would speak up for the embodied dead hypothesis: much more impressive to bore your dinner guests with a tale of marching bodily through Hell and coming back from the dead than one of merely doing one or the other but not both in the same trip. (This is the epistemic principle of cleaving to whatever would make Ethilrist most unbearable.)

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is this Heroic Escape detailed anywhere?

Not until the Heroquesting rules are published.  But it's a common theme dating back to WBRM.  

If your run-of-the-mill PC goes jumping in, though, don't expect them to make it back out.

13 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

If the PC's are in the River Styx Ferry (Acheron) they'd be OK no? Also what would be the price required by the Ferryman (Charon)?

Yes, just don't go dipping hands or toes in the water. 😉 

The standard price is a copper coin.  (It's why they put coins on the eyes after all.)

If you don't have copper coins, then offer to give the Ferryman a break and take over his duties for awhile.  The only problem is that he might not return...

13 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Could Charon take you back up the Syphon to the Toe Hole in the Acheron assuming those river connect and if so what might be the task(s) he'd ask the PC's to do for him on Glorantha and how might the failure to do so curse the PC's

Jeset is the Ferryman of the Dead.

And no he cannot go back up the Syphon - it's not the Styx.  (Plus would be an act of trying to get out of Hell, and I'm sure he is bound to his task by the Great Compromise.)

13 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Why would normal guardians who are there to stop the dead from leaving stop you from leaving Hell if you are alive?

Because by entering Hell, even if "alive", you are now considered "dead".  Even Orlanth had to fight his way out at the end of his quest.

 

 

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The standard price is a copper coin.  (It's why they put coins on the eyes after all.)

In the mouth, surely!

Why does Jeset — a self-respecting darkness deity and troll ancestor — not want payment in lead? There must be a story there — something beyond Charon’s obol being copper or bronze, one hopes. “And that, little Uzlings, is why Jeset’s bolg is made of copper. Don’t have daymares!”

Traditionally, the living — if we allow there are any such (in reality or in the eyes of Hell’s gatekeepers) — wanting to cross into the underworld have to offer something better than the usual coin (e.g. Aeneas and the Golden Bough), and the Well of Daliath follows suit with “a small magic item”, though what use Jeset has for such, I don’t know.

Where does the idea of Styx water being dangerous come from? Is it doing double duty as Lethe water (associated with erasure), or is it something else? Is Styx maybe all the water-not-water of the underworld with different magical properties in different places or at different times at her whim? If she is Lethe, is she maybe Mnemosyne, too — if Darkness is associated with erasure, it is associated with keeping secrets, too, and … returning them? [mutter … mutter … Darkness deity of dream … not another one! … memory games … nightly visits to Hell (often swiftly erased) … mutter … mutter … mutter]

[jajagappa]

54 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Traditionally, the living — if we allow there are any such (in reality or in the eyes of Hell’s gatekeepers) — wanting to cross into the underworld have to offer something better than the usual coin (e.g. Aeneas and the Golden Bough), and the Well of Daliath follows suit with “a small magic item”, though what use Jeset has for such, I don’t know.

He might well demand such.  As for what he would do with such, perhaps he must accumulate enough to regain favor with another deity? (Subere perhaps)

57 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Is it doing double duty as Lethe water (associated with erasure), or is it something else?

Yes (at least in my games it does).

[Erol of Backford]

Ok so riding down the Syphon doesn't sound very survivable. Hell is overrated says Ethilrist.

Sartar Sun Dome County Ties

One of the Agimori twins in the campaign is and initiate of St. Elmal and is working toward being an acolyte. They have arranged an exchange of a full file of militia from the Sun Dome to the new shrine and barracks in Backford being built.

The militia is being trained to fight chaos, ride and the use of a bow both mounted and on foot. The training post is for 6 months at a time with a half file being rotated out each 3 months...

We have established strong trade, fish oil, dried fish, salt to the Sartar Sun Dome. This is via an established trade network, Backford, Karse, Nochet, New Crystal City, Duck Point, Clearwine, Apple Lane and the Sun Dome. The Goldentongue Rollo Ortossno has connections with the Caprati in Notchet and runs a few legs of this circuit.

One of the Caprati daughters will end up marring someone of higher noble birth in Backford...

Additionally the Bishop of Backford's sister is married to Kilgorn Brightspear (see clip below). So through adoption the Agimori twins are drawn to the Sun Dome via trade and family. The other twin is a Humakti and so the passion regarding Delecti's downfall is mutual.

We are trying to tie Sun Dome to Backford through trade, family, marital prowess, fertility stones, etc.

Does anyone know of other possible ties between Backford and Sun Dome County in Sartar?

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Kilgorn plans to perform heroquests to re-enact all of Yelmalio’s battles against unlife …

Eventually, even Delecti will fall, and then the Earth, bride of the Sun, can be cleansed once and for all.

Did Yelmalio win all of his battles against unlife? Did any of them involve kindly old mad uncle Zorak Zoran?

Is it clear that the Earth wants to be cleansed once and for all? A Cold Sun fresh off a zombie-killing high might be an absolutely terrifying “returned husband”. It is rather ominous in a Michael Douglas in Falling Down kind of a way.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 11/28/2022 at 9:09 AM, mfbrandi said:

.......

Where does the idea of Styx water being dangerous come from? Is it doing double duty as Lethe water (associated with erasure), or is it something else? Is Styx maybe all the water-not-water of the underworld with different magical properties in different places or at different times at her whim? If she is Lethe, is she maybe Mnemosyne, too....

I don't know who originated the Gloranthan Styx.  But the question would seem to be: How much  does the Gloranthan underworld match Greek, Roman, or Italian Renaissance underworlds?  Note that they don't match each other in detail.  For example the Greek version is said to have five rivers.  

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Checked river counr

[mfbrandi]

11 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't know who originated the Gloranthan Styx.  But the question would seem to be: How much  does the Gloranthan underworld match Greek, Roman, or Italian Renaissance underworlds?

Oh, I have no objection to its failing to match, I just wondered what the myth logic was for Styx water being dangerous. One can see how it might be dangerous to the undead in any situation: undeath fails to respect the division between life and death, so it is an affront to Styx, the terminator between life/death and Darkness and the possibility of something else.

But the living only fail to respect this when in the underworld, so even if it is deadly to them there, does it retain its power if stolen and taken to the surface world? One can imagine a quest for a universal superweapon which just results in a bucket of dark zombie solvent, useless against the living.

[David Scott]

There's two entries in the Prosopaedia that will cover the Styx -

• Edzaroun:  Merfolk and Troll Pantheons: Goddess of Oaths and Black Waters. Described in the Glorantha Sourcebook & Missing Lands.
• Styx: Troll Pantheon: Goddess of the River of Death (Malkioni name)

They are described as a river, a pool, a great Black Sea of Hell... both are :

45 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

How much does the Gloranthan underworld match Greek, Roman, or Italian Renaissance underworlds?  Note that they don't match each other in detail.  For example the Greek version is said to have five rivers.  

You can see the Glorantha Underworld on page 10 of the Guide (or here), where Six Hells are shown, including those of Annara Gor and Deshlotralas, Netta, Yelm, Natha, and Deskorgos the Monster Man. There are more, at least seven, and not all hells are in the Underworld.