Backford Aeolian Campaign

[Erol of Backford]

So I have been digging in some more in my older magazines. In Tradetalk #5 p12 Brian of the Volsaxi is leading Volsaxi Mercenaries in the service of the King of Heortland defending Knight Fort and the Praxian Marches. I have looked a bit in the Forum but not able to find much on the Knight Fort besides there are differences of opinion as to where it actually is and how many forts there are, though I may have missed a bit? Is the location about 50 miles east of Mt. Passant about right or is it supposed to be further north? The map clip below is from the RuneQuest Companion. I also added a clip from the game (I never played as I can't speak French but back in the day was so crazy for RuneQuest I thought I needed a copy even I couldn't understand it...) which also shows the Knight Fort south and slightly east of Barbarian Town and positions it about the mid point of the open plain between the Stormwalk Mts. and the cliffs dropping off toward God Forgot. This distance is roughly 30 miles with Knight Fort being centrally located. Does this location make sense? (funny to note the Sundome Templar counters, lower left on the clip, look a lot like the figures on the counters from an old Trojan War game I have...)

The idea that the PC's in this campaign could also assist with the protection of Marcher Barons sometime during the period from 1611 ~ 1615 when Brian is posted there would be an interesting way to set plot hooks for them to actually venture into Prax and be tied to Brian possibly after then in the campaign? Though Prax portion needs a lot more investigation and vetting as horses aren't very welcome in Prax... Maybe they learn to ride other more acceptable mounts though zebras are likely to be more donkey sized then that of a horse for a knight? I'll need to look into that some more later but would take suggestions as to how to have them ride horses in Prax without needing to fight all the nomads they cross? Do I forget something related to horse being hated in Prax?

Also does anyone have suggestions as to how I might tie Aeolians to Brian? Would he oppose Aeolians being part of his company? I had read somewhere that Brian had extensive holdings in Backford (if I find that article again I'll post location when I do) and so he mustn't have dislike or hate for Aeolians would he? This is assuming there are Aeolians in Backford which I am now thinking is pretty obvious? Previously Joerg had suggested Aeolians could be Jansholm and Karse, so why not Backford if I understood correctly? It was also noted that they would not be in Sklar but I found something interesting in the same Tradetalk issue but on page 13. Gwydion of Sklar is the Archbishop of the Aeolian Church of Heortland. Earlier there was discussion that all the Aeolian where in larger cities which doesn't trouble me but when the Archbishop is from a "upstart fishing port" and he was actually the Bishop of Backford at age 35, it helps me solidify the Aeolians were definitely in Backford and there must have been quite a few for a bishop to have been posted there?

The PC's would be introduced to Gwydion when he is in Backford or has returned for a visit if the timing doesn't work. How old would Gwydion when he became Archbishop and what year?

So I am at about 1600 for the starting point in the campaign and if Owain King of Heortland is say 8 years old who is King in Heortland assuming Owain is not yet?

I'll have a good number of years in Heortland and Sartar to develop the campaign and some in Prax from 1611~1615 plus possibilities of the PC's heading off with Gwydion after Richard supplants Owain in 1617.

I am also wanting a tie to the Capratis Family, possibly through trade where the PC's being Aeolians wouldn't cause many issues?

Knowing the Bishop of Nochet, Vancelain du Tumerine supported Richard gives lots of reasons to dislike them both especially after the decree "to remove all pagan ornaments from the churches of the Invisible God" is made? (Again Tradetalk #5 Holy Country article, page 12~15.

This helps the tension with trade competition especially when the Aeolians are being persecuted by Richard? Is there a good source on this?

When, what year would the Fish Roads have been created?

How would the temple to Belintar the God-king, the Aeolian church of the Invisible God and any Orlanthian Temples be integrated. St. Orlanth has a shrine in the church? Would Belintar's temple be separate or integrated, assuming I am going to go with Aeolians in Backford and the whole Gwydion of Sklar being the Bishop of Backford?

Thank you all yet again for any thoughts.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

 I have looked a bit in the Forum but not able to find much on the Knight Fort besides there are differences of opinion as to where it actually is and how many forts there are, though I may have missed a bit? 

It appears on the map in RQG p121. on the river leading to the Monkey Ruins.  No mention has been made of it before in the Guide or the HQG books so there is a possibility that it was built between 1621-1625.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

The idea that the PC's in this campaign could also assist with the protection of Marcher Barons sometime during the period from 1611 ~ 1615 when Brian is posted there would be an interesting way to set plot hooks for them to actually venture into Prax and be tied to Brian possibly after then in the campaign? 

Broyan remains in Whitewall defending the Volsaxi against the Holy Country and was never posted to the Marcher Barony.  The tradetalk material is noncanonical.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also does anyone have suggestions as to how I might tie Aeolians to Brian?

They are distinct peoples who were often if not always opposed to each other - Most of the Aeolians supported Rikard the Tiger-hearted.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

So I am at about 1600 for the starting point in the campaign and if Owain King of Heortland is say 8 years old who is King in Heortland assuming Owain is not yet?

Owain is never King of Heortland.  Heortland was ruled by Governors until 1592 (the last being Zerhrestol).  Orngerin was appointed Governor in 1603 and may have become King (there is a trend in the Holy Country Sixths for the governors to become Kings at that time) until 1617

 

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

This helps the tension with trade competition especially when the Aeolians are being persecuted by Richard? Is there a good source on this?

Rikard did not persecute the Aeolians.  They were his supporters.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

When, what year would the Fish Roads have been created?

Early in Belintar's reign, I imagine.  He slacked off on showy public works after the construction of the City of Wonders.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

How would the temple to Belintar the God-king, the Aeolian church of the Invisible God and any Orlanthian Temples be integrated.

Belintar's cult is so far unknown (and abandoned now).  I am not aware of any integration among the bits of the Holy Country that we do know well (Esrolia) so think integrated worship is unlikely (but could be wrong).

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

St. Orlanth has a shrine in the church?

There is no Saint Orlanth among the Aeolians.  Their nobles and warriors worship Orlanth much like their brethren in the north.  The head wizard of the Aeolian is a Watcher, not a Bishop (although I assume he would still have a See).

 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I have looked a bit in the Forum but not able to find much on the Knight Fort besides there are differences of opinion as to where it actually is and how many forts there are, though I may have missed a bit? Is the location about 50 miles east of Mt. Passant about right or is it supposed to be further north?

As Peter noted, I think the location in RQG would be the correct one as that will have reconciled older attempts.

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

The idea that the PC's in this campaign could also assist with the protection of Marcher Barons sometime during the period from 1611 ~ 1615 when Brian is posted there would be an interesting way to set plot hooks for them to actually venture into Prax and be tied to Brian possibly after then in the campaign?

There's no evidence that Broyan was ever in Prax or had any such association.  Broyan's focus is on unifying the Volsaxi and questing to regain the Sword and Helm that will allow him to prove himself the heir of Vingkot.

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also does anyone have suggestions as to how I might tie Aeolians to Brian? Would he oppose Aeolians being part of his company? I had read somewhere that Brian had extensive holdings in Backford (if I find that article again I'll post location when I do) and so he mustn't have dislike or hate for Aeolians would he?

The Esvulari/Aeolians were strong supporters of Belintar.  Broyan's efforts were focused on liberating the Volsaxi (and Heortland) from Belintar.  It is extremely unlikely as a traditional Orlanthi quester that Broyan would have incorporated any Aeolians among his supporters.

Broyan would not have "holdings" in Backford.  Broyan was a Volsaxi based in Whitewall.

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This is assuming there are Aeolians in Backford which I am now thinking is pretty obvious? Previously Joerg had suggested Aeolians could be Jansholm and Karse, so why not Backford if I understood correctly?

Up until 1616, when Belintar ruled, he appointed Governors over each of the Sixths, including Heortland.  The Heortland Governor was based in Durengard from where he could readily travel the Magic Road to the City of Wonders.  Sometimes the Governor was Heortling, sometimes Esvulari/Aeolian, occasionally from elsewhere.  The Governor of Heortland would have had tribute collectors in Karse, Jansholm, and Backford, so yes there would be a few Esvulari/Aeolians there, but pretty much all of Heortland north of Durengard and the Bullflood River was standard Heortling/Orlanthi culture.

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

It was also noted that they would not be in Sklar but I found something interesting in the same Tradetalk issue but on page 13. Gwydion of Sklar is the Archbishop of the Aeolian Church of Heortland. Earlier there was discussion that all the Aeolian where in larger cities which doesn't trouble me but when the Archbishop is from a "upstart fishing port" and he was actually the Bishop of Backford at age 35, it helps me solidify the Aeolians were definitely in Backford and there must have been quite a few for a bishop to have been posted there?

Unfortunately, the "medieval" view of Malkionism got extrapolated rather heavily here in a few of these non-canonical sources.  It's best not to think of Aeolianism as any type of "church" with "bishops" or the like.

Sklar is one of the towns in the Holy Country focused on ship-building for Belintar.  It would likely have scribes to track progress, but the locals would be typical sea-worshipping coastal folk. 

If an Esvulari noble (i.e. talar) was appointed to administer a particular site for tribute collection, they might bring along their family's wizard-priest (i.e. zzaburi) who would likely specialize in administering to the needs to the noble (who likely worshipped Orlanth and his ancestors).  But the residents of Backford, Sklar, etc. would have worshipped their normal Heortling deities (i.e. Orlanth and Ernalda, Choralinthor by the sea, etc.).

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So I am at about 1600 for the starting point in the campaign and if Owain King of Heortland is say 8 years old who is King in Heortland assuming Owain is not yet?

I'll have a good number of years in Heortland and Sartar to develop the campaign and some in Prax from 1611~1615 plus possibilities of the PC's heading off with Gwydion after Richard supplants Owain in 1617.

There were no kings in Heortland in this time period.  Belintar appointed Governors to rule the land.  The best source for the list of Governors is History of the Heortling Peoples.  Zerhrestol was Governor until 1597.  There is a gap until 1603 (might have been someone missed, or perhaps no Governor for 6 years - that's unclear), and then Orngerin the Sophisticate was appointed Governor.  Orngerin was governor until 1617, when he died during the magical rites.

In 1617, Broyan declares himself High King of the Volsaxi and heir of Vingkot.  Rikard Tiger-hearted arrives in southern Heortland and is able to ally the Esvulari and conquer Durengard.

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This helps the tension with trade competition especially when the Aeolians are being persecuted by Richard? Is there a good source on this?

Rikard was supported by the Esvulari and Aeolians.  He was their "Philosopher King". 

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

How would the temple to Belintar the God-king, the Aeolian church of the Invisible God and any Orlanthian Temples be integrated. St. Orlanth has a shrine in the church? Would Belintar's temple be separate or integrated, assuming I am going to go with Aeolians in Backford and the whole Gwydion of Sklar being the Bishop of Backford?

So, again, stripping out the "medievalism" here as I think it creates the wrong impression of an "organized" religion.

Most of Heortland functions the same as Sartar.  Temples to Orlanth and Ernalda in most clans/villages and cities, as well as other local cults.

Among the Esvulari/Aeolians (who dwell primarily around Mount Passant and Refuge), there is also worship of the Invisible God, and the other deities are considered emanations of the Invisible God.  There is a caste structure there, though not as much as in the West.  You have nobles worshipping Orlanth and Ernalda and their ancestors.  There are the wizard-priests who can intercede with the Invisible God and channel the power of the worshippers for magic to aid their communities.  And the commoners who worship the rest of the typical Orlanth pantheon.

Durengard is as far north as you'll find larger Esvulari communities with a temple to the Invisible God given its position as the Governor's residence in Heortland.

There are distinct temples to Belintar, but only in Durengard and probably Backford where the Magic Road/Fish Road are.  Otherwise, there was likely a statue to Belintar in most temples so that Belintar (as God-king) could manifest there among the other gods during seasonal ceremonies.

Temples to the Invisible God are probably distinct in the cities of Durengard, Mount Passant, and Refuge.  In southern Heortland, among the Esvulari villages, it's not clear whether they would have a common, integrated temple or distinct ones.

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am also wanting a tie to the Capratis Family, possibly through trade where the PC's being Aeolians wouldn't cause many issues?

Knowing the Bishop of Nochet, Vancelain du Tumerine

Note that these two families are very small parts of Nochet, and don't actually arrive until after 1600.  There is a separate, older, Esvulari community in Nochet (actually outside the walls of Nochet).  But out of 100k+ inhabitants, these Malkioni number ~1500 people. 

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So I am at about 1600 for the starting point in the campaign

Putting canon aside, if you like the ideas from Tradetalk, etc, certainly run with it - just figure that there's not going to be much additional to work with beyond what you create & develop.

[Erol of Backford]

Thank you both for the great input.

[Jeff]

On 4/14/2021 at 5:01 PM, Erol of Backford said:

I have not played Runequest for many years but did for a good bit in the late 80's and early 90's. I am getting back up to speed and looking at setting up a campaign based in Backford. I love the idea of Aeolian Orlanthi but want to look into time frames and starting plots for the campaign. I hope to make it work so it starts before the Lunars invade say about the year 1600 with characters close to 20 years old. Possibly some of the older relatives have gone off to fight the Lunars in Sartar? I am thinking that one of the characters is a nephew of the Eorl of Backford and a poor noble or bastard. Maybe he is charged with fetching some fertility stones with another relative who is an initiate of Elmal from the Sundome. It's a stretch but would lead to so many interesting plot hooks. Dried fish is taken to Sundome to trade for fertility stones to help the aling argriculture around Backford? Does a trade triangle somehow require stops through Apple Lane? How do I better tie Backford to Sundome and Central Sartar? I am thinking for the campaign that Backford would not be a rocky crossing with the Syphon running to it but rather a smaller port with a actual wharf built at the ford with a bridge like the Roman Bridge of Córdoba (not as big) built over it with a toll gate of some sort? I don't have to follow Gloranthian Dogma 100% but I'd like it to at least be plausible. Any ideas or thoughts on expanding this would be great.

Also, I tried to post a few photos but was not able to get the URL to take. For future is thee  a trick to uploading something?

 

 

Backford (small city): Also called Salt Town, the inhabitants thrive from the collection of salt from the Syphon River. Salt from Backford is exported to Dragon Pass. The city is surrounded by stout walls to protect its inhabitants from incursions from Larnste’s Footprint. The magical Fish Road still stops here on its run from Deeper up the Syphon River.

Syphon River: This strange salt-water river starts in the Biskill Inslet. It flows backwards some 130 kilometers, running uphill into Larnste’s Footprint until it reaches the Toehole and then runs down deep into the Underworld. When the Spike was shattered, the Syphon, alone of all the waters of the world, refused the call of Magasta to fill the Void. 

Gardufar: The central lands of Heortland, Gardufar is roughly marked by the Syphon River in the north and the Minthos River in the south. It is a plateau of rolling hills with farms and woods. The people here are mostly farmers of Barntar’s cult. They worship Orlanth as king of the gods, and Ernalda as his wife. Their culture is Orlanthi, and follows the typical patterns of whose who worship the Lightbringers. The civilizing influence of the country has turned tribal and clan organization into a more cohesive whole and their society has been altered from its Orlanthi basics by heavy Malkioni mercantile, religious, and social impact. But although changed, the Theyalan love for political freedom remains. Instead of “thanes”, the elite warriors are called “horali”, and are armed to fight in the same manner as their western overlords. But the warriors are not a class of nobles, just another of the free classes. Noblemen are selected from within certain families and must be approved by all free people. The “unfree” class is so abhorrent to the Heortlanders that fewer slaves or serfs exist than in most western countries. 

And here is the official master map of the region:

 

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So I have been digging in some more in my older magazines. In Tradetalk #5 p12 Brian of the Volsaxi is leading Volsaxi Mercenaries in the service of the King of Heortland defending Knight Fort and the Praxian Marches.

That material was from my 1994 website. I had been exploring a possible RQ3 version of the Aeolian Church and Heortland 1616 was where and when I set my first Glorantha game. Nick Brooke and his work on How The West Was One had been an influence on that even before that game was first played, from private discussions.

The ideas for using Chaosium's Thieves World boxed set for Refuge from the French magazine Tatou were part of my overall picture of Heortland, too.

 

WHat I had to work with (phrased in accordance with how the Guide and the History of the Heortling Peoples phrase things):

Belintar disappears in 1616.

The king of Heortland dies in 1617 without a successor.

How The West Was One had a number of characters with a back-story in Heortland. That game had been played by the who-is-who in Glorantha fandom and remained the defining work on Malkionism at least until Greg published Revealed Mythologies.

Sir Walter Scott's Ivanhoe and Frank Stenton's Anglo-Saxon England were hugely influential on my background desgin, too. Another strong influence was Poul Anderson's "King of Ys" tetralogy in a fictional late-/post-Roman Aremorica.

My own take on Malkioni chivalry was a lot less medieval than the illustrations in Genertela Book and the "What My Father Told Me" for Seshnela suggested. For all the weaknesses the 2004 King Arthur movie starring Clive Owen and Keira Knightley had, one thing I enjoyed very much was their presentation of knighthood. away from mddle to late medieval chivalry. 10 years earlier I would probably have used stills from that flick to illustrate some of the NPCs in my game.

 

I way overshot how the Aeolians would change Heortland. In my defense, there were a number of red herrings in the two (rather short) descriptions of that place available to me, RQ2 Companion and the RQ3 Genertela Box.

For my game, I wanted urban Orlanthi very unlike the Varmandi described in the Orlanthi "What My Father Told Me" (originally published in Genertela Box, also part of HQ Voices).

 

So, however much I am tickled by seeing those ideas still in use when we have the Guide and other material to draw on, I have stopped trying to re-align all of that with current canon.

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I have looked a bit in the Forum but not able to find much on the Knight Fort besides there are differences of opinion as to where it actually is and how many forts there are, though I may have missed a bit? 

Not really. You have listed all the sources I had when cooking up that soap opera for my idea of an Aeolian Heortland.

Marc Galeotti and the Unspoken Word crew came up with a different take on the Aeolians, adapted to the Hero Wars/HQ1 product line and the additional revelations therein. The Esvulari homeland in HeroQuest Voices is pretty much a distillation of those ideas.

 

Knight Fort was an addition to the Nomad Gods boardgame for the French edition (Les Dieux Nomads).

 

There is little more recent information. The Bandori tribe and the Marcher Barons have been discussed since. My idea of using a Krak des Chevaliers lookalike as a leftover from the God Learner presence in southern Kethaela was a mix of availability of sources, superficial similarities (a fortress in a desert just outside of the Holy Country, with mainly mounted natives as opposition) and my own attempt to use soap opera interconnections between the major NPCs.

One set of questions I had was

• What did Broyan do between 1613 and 1617?
• How were Kallyr, Leika and other prominent Sartarite exiles uninvolved in Sartar during that time, and out of range for Lunar assassins?

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is the location about 50 miles east of Mt. Passant about right or is it supposed to be further north? The map clip below is from the RuneQuest Companion. I also added a clip from the game (I never played as I can't speak French but back in the day was so crazy for RuneQuest I thought I needed a copy even I couldn't understand it...) which also shows the Knight Fort south and slightly east of Barbarian Town and positions it about the mid point of the open plain between the Stormwalk Mts. and the cliffs dropping off toward God Forgot. This distance is roughly 30 miles with Knight Fort being centrally located. Does this location make sense?

I used to take that river course and the black dot on the RQ2 Companion map as my guidelines to place the fort, so your conclusons are the same as mine.

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

The idea that the PC's in this campaign could also assist with the protection of Marcher Barons sometime during the period from 1611 ~ 1615 when Brian is posted there would be an interesting way to set plot hooks for them to actually venture into Prax and be tied to Brian possibly after then in the campaign? 

That was one of my ideas, too. My own fascination for Prax has always been quite limited, but many of my contacts were very invested in Prax, and I thought that this would give them an entryway into my weave of story hooks.

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Though Prax portion needs a lot more investigation and vetting as horses aren't very welcome in Prax... Maybe they learn to ride other more acceptable mounts though zebras are likely to be more donkey sized then that of a horse for a knight?

I had them as horse riders, without any consideration for Praxian sensibilities. If the Pure Horse Folk could survive in Prax for 600 years, and the Pol Joni for 200, then why would Malkionized Orlanthi opt to ride Eiritha's beasts? The point of the fort was to stage a reaction force to whichever Praxian raiders might try their hands at entering the Marcher Baron territory or Heortland beyond. Short of building a limes or Hadrian's Wall, that's the best any non-Praxian could achieve on the edge of the chaparral.

 

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I'll need to look into that some more later but would take suggestions as to how to have them ride horses in Prax without needing to fight all the nomads they cross? Do I forget something related to horse being hated in Prax?

That hatred of horses actually works in favor of the purpose of stopping Praxian raids. Every hot-head that decides to go lance to lance against these fairly heavily armored riders is one less sneaking past the fort and raiding the farmers beyond. For the warriors stationed here, it was a post where they could distinguish themselves.

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also does anyone have suggestions as to how I might tie Aeolians to Brian?

My old ideas were identifying the Aeolians with the Hendriki, based on the text in Genertela Book p.49.  That text has since been retracted, but to illustrate how and why I came up with those ideas, here's what I worked from:

Quote

The Hendreiki tribe has been altered from its Orlanthi basics by heavy Malkioni mercantile, religious, and social impact. But although changed, the Theyalan love for political freedom remains. Instead of "thanes", the Hendreiki warriors are called "knights", and are armed to fight in the same manner as their western overlords.

Little of this has survived with the material produced on the Hendriki tribe in "History of the Heortling Peoples".

Instead, the Hendriki have become the Braveheart tribe, or rather have remained true to their roots during the Gbaji Wars throughout 12 centuries of subsequent history.

The text might be salvaged somewhat if one replaces "Hendriki tribe" with "Hendriki kingdom". The Hendriki mentioned in Pegasus Plateau are basically Volsaxi, the tribesmen who formed King Broyan's core supporters, and completely unlike the decription I quoted from the Genertela Box.

But then, the Volsaxi tribe emerging from the Kitori wars was heavily influenced by the House of Sartar and the changes it had brought, too. I am not quite clear how good the relationship between Belintar and Tarkalor was - at least in my reading of that period in history, Tarkalor was one of the driving forces behind the assassinations of the leaders of House Norinel and its allies, in revenge for the killing of Sarotar. Belintar may have disapproved, or he may have turned a blind eye as the influence of queens, then Reverend Grandmothers Bruvala and Brengala may have gone against his own plans, and as he was allied with a rival Enfranchised House for his Dormal project.

If Broyan was mainly a local leader of the tribal confederation of the Volsaxi, his exposure to Aeolians would have been limited to a few crafter families in Smithstone, a minority population in Jansholm, and possibly the ruling family in Karse and their dependents. None of those rural Aeolians of Jaransbyrig (a market town on the plateau between the Solthi and Syphon estuaries) with their mixed population that were the center of my RQ campaign in the region, except for a hefty dose of YGMV. (A community like that could exist in Bandori lands, though.)

Other than the last governor-king of Heortland, Orngerin, who appears to have been a very decent Orlanthi overlord, too many of the previous governor kings of Heortland had been from Esrolia or of Esvulari stock, and a lot less patient with "Orlanthi nonsense".

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Would he oppose Aeolians being part of his company? I had read somewhere that Brian had extensive holdings in Backford (if I find that article again I'll post location when I do) and so he mustn't have dislike or hate for Aeolians would he?

"Having holdings" sounds something like the Hendriki kings from the time of the Adjustment Wars might have had. For the picture of Broyan as painted post HQ1 (where he was an avatar of Vingkotling kingship more than anything else) as the City Rex of Whitewall or Prince of the Hendriki, that doesn't sound quite in character, unless it is supposed to mean that his office had a lot of tenants financing him in the region.

The area between Backford and the Footprint was one of three permanent borders of Heortland where standing forces were required. The Praxian marches were another one, and so was a naval response team for the coast. My old campaign background had a Warden of the Footprint Marches and a Warden of the Isles, and whoever led the response force in Knight Fort.

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This is assuming there are Aeolians in Backford which I am now thinking is pretty obvious? Previously Joerg had suggested Aeolians could be Jansholm and Karse, so why not Backford if I understood correctly?

In the light of Backford being the religious (though not administrative) center of the worship of Belintar in Heortland, I would place a certain amount of Aeolians there in 1616. What happens after Belintar's disappearance is up to your campaign's recent history. A conquest by scorpionfolk pretty much ends all human occupation of the city, but it is unclear how many people may have made it out of the city before it fell. Any who were caught alive would have ended up as food for Gagix Twobarb, to be re-spawned as the next generation of her superior offspring.

It isn't clear whether Broyan was anywhere near Backford when Gagix's forces stormed the city, or whether he or one of his lieutenants did anything to end that sorry chapter in the history of the city. Basically, that's another thing left up to you to develop for your game. It doesn't look like the Lunar Provincial governor Tatius cared about that place at all. For all we know, he may have instructed the  local Lunar occupation forces to open the gates for "these allies of the Empire" (consigning the recipients of that order as well as the messengers to share the fate of the citizens).

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

It was also noted that they would not be in Sklar but I found something interesting in the same Tradetalk issue but on page 13. Gwydion of Sklar is the Archbishop of the Aeolian Church of Heortland.

Gwydion of Sklar was one of the characters in How The West Was One, written by David Hall IIRC, part of a very nice family drama spanning several factions in that game. I really hope that @Nick Brooke and his co-authors will follow up the Life of Moonson freeform material with their How The West Was One material. I managed to get the set of characters and the referee instructions in an auction at a convention, and it has a similar web of inter-connected backstories of the characters as the Life of Moonson material. Campaign hooks galore.

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Earlier there was discussion that all the Aeolian where in larger cities which doesn't trouble me but when the Archbishop is from a "upstart fishing port" and he was actually the Bishop of Backford at age 35, it helps me solidify the Aeolians were definitely in Backford and there must have been quite a few for a bishop to have been posted there?

The text from Genertela Book p.49 that I quoted above explains why people wringing the source material available in 1994 would have Aeolians all over Heortland, rather than limited to the south and some cities. The massive rewrites for the initial Hero Wars material were tte first publication of the term "Esvulari", and subsequent exploration of the notion of the Aeolians being mainly a southern Heortland and urban phenomenon were slowly oscillating towards the information we have now.

I stopped pursuing my previously published theories when I was nominated as the go-to person for information on the Holy Country during the initial phase of the release of Hero Wars.

 

"Bishop" is one of the terms from Dark Ages Christianity that has been retired with the shift to terms like "Men-of-All" instead of "knights". But then, "Watcher" sounds quite similar to a literal translation of "episcopos"...

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

The PC's would be introduced to Gwydion when he is in Backford or has returned for a visit if the timing doesn't work. How old would Gwydion when he became Archbishop and what year?

With the caveat that I probably wouldn't use this character any more when I run a game in the region, at the time I was integrating him into my  Gwydion was in position to see Belintar disappear, so he would have taken the lead of the Heortland Aeolians some time before 1615.

Sklar would be the place of his birth, but certainly not where he would have received his sorcerous education or his priestly consecrations. I would picture him as one very bright youth placed with the high functionaries of the Aeolian creed, probably in Mt. Passant.

If you want to use Jeff's previews of how the Esvulari are going to be presented in future supplements, he would have to be a scion of a zzaburi family of the Esvulari, a strictly endogamous caste. His parents would have been posted to a backwater, possibly as the result of an intrigue, or as the result of a patron dying and that patron's supporters being removed from the center of power in a "promotion". Gwydion would have been fostered on some bigwig with influence, and then may have been placed as a local highest authority ("bishop") in some other place with high Aeolian population. The Aeolians do recognize merit, which may have earned him the top dog position in Heortland.

All of that during the reign of Orngerin the Sophisticate. Gwydion probably would have been a staunch supporter of Belintar's regime. The Aeolians in general were benefiting from the changes Belintar had wrought in Heortland, and there is little if any reason to have their religious leadership in opposition to the Godking. (Unless you find a plot element in your campaign where elements in the Aeolian community had something else going on.)

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So I am at about 1600 for the starting point in the campaign and if Owain King of Heortland is say 8 years old who is King in Heortland assuming Owain is not yet?

I would suggest you drop any mention of Owain for Orngerin - see 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/carvak-zirian/

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/29-the-city-of-wonders/

https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Orngerin_the_Sophisticate

I don't know who came up with the name "Owain" any more - may have been David Hall, may have been myself given the Welsh origin of the name.

Orngerin is probably the Orlanthi name that sounds the closest to Owain.

At the very least, that gives you a nice character sketch for this NPC.

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I'll have a good number of years in Heortland and Sartar to develop the campaign and some in Prax from 1611~1615 plus possibilities of the PC's heading off with Gwydion after Richard supplants Owain in 1617.

Your game is starting significantly earlier than mine did - I picked 1615 to introduce the last year of an intact Holy Country.

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am also wanting a tie to the Capratis Family, possibly through trade where the PC's being Aeolians wouldn't cause many issues?

Good old Guisido de Capratis, Pasos bishop of the ancient Seshnegi Sea of Neleoswal, of the Rokari sect, was my rival in the first run of How The West Was One, played by Alex Ferguson, one of several people I had been debating on the RQ Daily. My own character was the Castle Coast bishop of the ancient Seshnegi See of Neleoswal, of the Linealist Hrestoli sect of Seshnela.

Don Capratis in Nochet was introduced by MOB, also based on the work done for How The West Was One.

The Capratis of Pasos and the Du Tumerines of Nolos were the leading mercantile families below the houses of Mulliam and Porfain, and their rivalry was on par with that of the Montagues and the Capulets.

In my game, the mercenaries of Rikard were accompanied by a du Tumerine Rokari bishop who was very hot about establishing the See of New Malkonwal under his direction, overriding whichever local organisation the Aeolians might have had, and while Rikard himself was not a religious fanatic or an iconoclast, I wrote a number of Rokari-leaning followers of his into the setting who would confiscate Orlanthii-themed votive imagery in the Aeolian temples, preferredly those made from precious material.

The Capratis family would have been quite ready to support anybody working against any DuTumerine ambition, so yes, in my game Don Capratis would be a logiical contact.

 

How The West Was One did not have a Navigationalist sect of the Quinpolic League. That was first described in Glorantha - An Introduction to the Hero Wars, and picked up in HeroQuest (1st edition) and Men of the Sea, and finally in the Guide. 

Any mercantile house of Nolos or Pasos is more likely to be navigationalists than orthodox Rokari, but that wouldn't stop them from getting some minor kin supplied as wizards for the Rokari College. A good mercantile empire will have family in many a faction.

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Knowing the Bishop of Nochet, Vancelain du Tumerine supported Richard gives lots of reasons to dislike them both especially after the decree "to remove all pagan ornaments from the churches of the Invisible God" is made? (Again Tradetalk #5 Holy Country article, page 12~15.

Vancelain is another character from How the West Was One, IIRC.

 

The Guide presages a Seventh Ecclesiastical Council for 1625, but unlike the Reaching Moon Megacorp version it won't be hosted on neutral ground in Sog City, Fronela, but in the bastion of Rokarism, Leplain in Tanisor, and the atmosphere there will be quite different from the experience of the Freeform.

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This helps the tension with trade competition especially when the Aeolians are being persecuted by Richard? Is there a good source on this?

None whatsoever, other than my campaign notes influenced by HTWW1 and exchanges on and off the RQ Daily around 1994, and whoever thought those notes to provide a playable background for the region.

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

When, what year would the Fish Roads have been created?

They would need Belintar firmly in possession of Heortland and Esrolia. King Andrin of Heortland was slain in 1317 (or early 1318) and returned from the dead a year later, starting shenanigans in Heortland that would lead to the exodus of Colymar from the upper Solthi area - not that far from Backford.

The Fish Roads requires a temple in Nochet as its terminus, and while the entire city area of Seapolis in the Righarm Isle acts as the terminus (or at least as the dry part of the Fish Road), I tend to think that at Backford it would have to be a temple directly on the river, and I don't think that such a temple would have existed earlier.

Normally I would say that such a temple doesn't get built overnight, but Belintar has a track record for raising sacred buildings by magic while his woshipers watch. Still, 1318 was an extremely busy year for the Godking, starting with him digging the New River to re-connect the Creek-Stream River with the Sea after blocking it with the remains of the Lead Serpent summoned by the Nightdragon Society in defense of the Only Old One.

Establishing the Fish Road may have been an atonement for blocking the mythically most important river from supplying Magasta's Pool, as the road towards Deeper and beyond into Magasta's Pool offers another carrier for energies maintaining the seal on Jotimam. The Syphon branch may have been an afterthought to that.

The Fish Road between Loon Island (upon which lay the City of Wonders) and Seapolis may actually have pre-existed Belintar's victory over the Only Old One. In that case, the Nochet branch and the Deeper branch may have been additions after the fall of the Obsidian Palace.

The Syphon branch would certainly have been established within Belintar's first incarnation. I would estimate that it was operational by 1620 at latest, and 1617 at earliest.

 

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

How would the temple to Belintar the God-king, the Aeolian church of the Invisible God and any Orlanthian Temples be integrated. St. Orlanth has a shrine in the church? Would Belintar's temple be separate or integrated, assuming I am going to go with Aeolians in Backford and the whole Gwydion of Sklar being the Bishop of Backford?

The Aeolian temple in Nochet lies outside of the city, but right in the middle of Meldektown, the Aeolian/Malkioni quarter of the city. On the other hand, my versions of both Karse and Jansholm have their main temples inside the walled parts of the city.

For Backford, it depends how well entrenched an Esvulari presence would have been prior to Belintar's ascension and his appointments of Esvulari as overseers over the unruly Storm Sixth. While the Durengard Scrolls in History of the Heortling Peoples attest an Aeolian population in Leskos, the travelogue remains silent about Aeolians in Backford, while mentioning the salt gardens established there by the Hendriking kings. (p.63)

To me, this sounds like the Esvulari presence takes a significant upturn with Belintar establishing his temple here, and that makes a proximity of the Aeolian quarter and their temple likely. I wouldn't expect a shared temple, though - at least not if there are enough Aeolians here to warrant a bishop important enough to succeed as the leader of the sect.

 

There is one other potential posting for an Aeolian bishop to succeed as the leader of the sect - the City of Wonders. I haven't seen any population numbers for the place, but I think it would have been a metropolis, at least before the 1616 plundering. As such, it may have housed an Aeolian community in the thousands, possibly stronger than the Nochet presence.

 

[Erol of Backford]

Guys, this is the best, I feel like I am reliving my 1990's RuneQuest but with more and better detail. The Heortland map is great, I have a copy of How the West Was Won and will need to reread it this evening. Thanks for the links as well. The game is so much better with all the socioeconomics wrapped in with the culture. Really, really great stuff here. I just got a few of the new RuneQuest books and haven't even pulled the plastic seal off 2 of them as I need to absorb it one book at a time... So glad new material has come out. Thanks yet again!

[Erol of Backford]

So we have a PC who is an Agimori who was orphaned and raised Civilized (its a long story involving Broo and Knight Fort, I don't know the whole story yet) and has no objection to riding a horse... I have no issues with it as they like to antagonize trolls and it puts them on a more even footing when fighting with them or playing Troll Ball. They give new meaning to "push" in Shield Push as well.

2 questions: Where might they find a horse, sized to carry them, all the better if they have to travel far to obtain it, trade, travel all good ways to get into scenarios.

Also, what other animals besides say rhinos in Prax could carry them and where would a nomad trader sell them? I looked through several pages on Agimori but didn't see anything on mounts... sorry if I missed it.

As always thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

[French Desperate WindChild]

21 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where might they find a horse, sized to carry them, all the better if they have to travel far to obtain it, trade, travel all good ways to get into scenarios.

I would say pure horse people (but would they sell big stallions ?) In my old version,  the west has big horses to support their heavy cavalry and would probably accept to sell it at a big price. (I don't know if it is still the case)

Lunar empire could provide too.

25 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also, what other animals besides say rhinos in Prax could carry them and where would a nomad trader sell them?

Pavis is a good place for that. Another option is to ally with a praxian clan and raid Pent to get horses (well... and obtain that praxians don't kill the horses) and raid Rhino tribe to get Rhino.

In all cases, remember that your agimori, orphan or not, cannot support cold (not by education but by nature/rune) so outside Prax, some difficulties for him/her

 

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I would say pure horse people (but would they sell big stallions ?) In my old version,  the west has big horses to support their heavy cavalry and would probably accept to sell it at a big price. (I don't know if it is still the case)

Lunar empire could provide too.

Jillaro in Sylila in the Lunar Empire is famed for its horses.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

2 questions: Where might they find a horse, sized to carry them, all the better if they have to travel far to obtain it, trade, travel all good ways to get into scenarios.

HeroQuest for one, go to the Land of Big Horses, or wherever, and bring a magical horse back.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also, what other animals besides say rhinos in Prax could carry them and where would a nomad trader sell them?

Bison could easily hold them. Big sables, maybe, but it depends on how big the Agimori is. High Llamas can probably cope as well. Impalas, Bolo Lizards and Ostriches definitely won't cope, Zebras might, but they would need to be specially bred, probably. Nomad Traders would probably sell them.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

I looked through several pages on Agimori but didn't see anything on mounts... sorry if I missed it.

Normal Agimori find riding mounts taboo, I seem to remember. but the PC is not raised by normal Agimori so that isn't a problem, until they meet other Agimori.

 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So we have a PC who is an Agimori who was orphaned and raised Civilized (its a long story involving Broo and Knight Fort, I don't know the whole story yet) and has no objection to riding a horse... I have no issues with it as they like to antagonize trolls and it puts them on a more even footing when fighting with them or playing Troll Ball. They give new meaning to "push" in Shield Push as well.

2 questions: Where might they find a horse, sized to carry them, all the better if they have to travel far to obtain it, trade, travel all good ways to get into scenarios.

The biggest wild equine alive on our planet happens to be a zebra. Unfortunately, the Praxian wild zebras are described as rather small, and their goldeneye ancestors now inherited by the Grazers aren't that big either.

But then, why shouldn't a man-and-a-half out of legend ride a zebra-and-a-half out of legend?

 

Godunya managed to create an elephant-sized horse for Kui Hui, so any major demigod might be able to source horses of unusual size.

Mules might be bred from Western large horses and extra large donkey stallions (like the Poitou breed) which would fit your man-and-a-half.

 

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I would say pure horse people (but would they sell big stallions ?)

The old pamphlet on horses (which made it into Anaxial's Roster with only minor alterations and some additions) makes it sound like the hyal and the original sered breeds aren't among the bigger horses of Glorantha, and only the Galana ponies are even smaller. At Feroda, the PHP were in contact with Jrusteli, and might have acquired some of the big-boned western warhorse stock to breed into their herds, but that would dilute the lineage of Goldeneyes rather than further them.

On the other hand, the PHP may have been Sered horse folk (called Gamatae by some scholars) from Andarkon who only adopted the Hyaloring pure horse creed after Argentium Thri'ile.

 

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In my old version,  the west has big horses to support their heavy cavalry and would probably accept to sell it at a big price. (I don't know if it is still the case)

This still is in the Fronela description in the Guide, and the Carmanian Charger is derived from that breed, too, last I checked.

 

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Lunar empire could provide too.

Yes, provided you remove the Carmanian riding it from the saddle and from breathing.

 

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Pavis is a good place for that. Another option is to ally with a praxian clan and raid Pent to get horses (well... and obtain that praxians don't kill the horses) and raid Rhino tribe to get Rhino.

If you want to raid for horses, better don't bring any Praxians other than Pol Joni or Zebra riders. Most other Praxians would opt for good horses as in "the only good horse is a dead horse".

 

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In all cases, remember that your agimori, orphan or not, cannot support cold (not by education but by nature/rune) so outside Prax, some difficulties for him/her

The Pol Joni are known to reform outcasts from other tribes, so they might be the go-to people in Prax to get friendlier to horses, and possibly to take on riding.

 

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Jillaro in Sylila in the Lunar Empire is famed for its horses.

While Jillaro (Old Jillaro) is where I would start to dig for artifacts from Anaxalian era Nivorah artifacts, the Jillaro horse striked me more as a racer than as one of those big Daron-related big horses.

 

 

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

HeroQuest for one, go to the Land of Big Horses, or wherever, and bring a magical horse back.

In Prax, where would you get the myths for that? But then, the "Zebra-and-a-half" would be such a beast.

 

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Normal Agimori find riding mounts taboo, I seem to remember. but the PC is not raised by normal Agimori so that isn't a problem, until they meet other Agimori.

The Agimori of Pithdaros or Fonrit have left that taboo behind, I think.

[jajagappa]

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

While Jillaro (Old Jillaro) is where I would start to dig for artifacts from Anaxalian era Nivorah artifacts, the Jillaro horse striked me more as a racer than as one of those big Daron-related big horses.

The RQG bestiary suggests:

Daron (western) - SIZ 3D6+18 (consistently largest)

Goldeneye (PHP) - SIZ 4D6+12 (can be as large)

Galana (Dragon Pass thru Maniria/Ralios/Talastar) - SIZ 3D6+12

Seredae (Peloria/Pent) - SIZ 4D6+12 (can be as large)

Anaxial's Roster added:

Fronan - including some in Carmania; among the largest horses

Swadal - in Fronela; among the largest horses and bred during the Syndic's Ban

Jillaran - fast racers

 

So, working from that, the best places to go to get large horses might be:  Carmania (long way away), Heortland (brought by Rikard Tiger-hearted from the West), Nochet (brought in trade, or brought by the Nolos settlers), or Seshnela itself.

[Erol of Backford]

I have player characters wanting to know about ghosts and how to capture or bind them when they are encountered rather than always fighting them or running away. For future encounters months if not years down the road when the players are Rune Lord status...

The question is could a character not somehow transfer the binding to a new enchantment.

For example, looking at Runequest Gamemater Adventures we have King Berevenenos' ghost. Would player characters not be able to bind him if they had an appropriate spell and enchantment?

Taking that further I always thought from gaming back in the 90's, somehow getting the ghost of Ormelius from Shadows on the Borderland bound so he was under the control of a player character would be really really interesting. Could you use some Lhankor Mhy spell to go back in time to see where the binding enchantment was made in the shrine and then transfer it to a new enchantment or remove it in whole (without damaging it) to bring him with? of course they'd need to be protected from him while any of these activities were in progress?

Also the ghost from Snakepipe Hallow, the Blue Ghost would be really cool to unleash on character enemies. Could a character not use divine intervention with Humakt to get the ghost under character's control (I didn't think Humakti could be undead but it doesn't bother me here)

Lastly the spirit Ironarm in Balastors Barracks, could they not be bound to further the glory of Humakt by being transferred, again via divine intervention to a weapon of cult artifact like the golden sword or such?

If this sort of discussion was posted somewhere previously, my apologies.

[Erol of Backford]

Should this be a new thread?

Intelligent Horses:

Continuing the discussion on Agimori possibly riding horses, I was reading in the GSB on page 16 (horse named Glad Leaper) that horses could have sentient INT and could learn spells etc. and so I am curious how this could happen without the horse being an allied spirit.

Are horses able to be awakened similar to the Release INT spell the Morokanth have in Prax? Would there be some sort of Hero Quest as noted in the GSB, again p16 that could be conducted? Griffins and Hippogriff are already noted as being able to speak and cast spells. Would one just need to know speak with birds to communicate with them (They are both birds/birdlike no, hawk and or eagle headed?) meaning is there a speak with horses ability?

Thinking that a horse casting Bludgeon on their hooves or Bladesharp on a character's lance...

Any thoughts or comments appreciated.

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I was reading in the GSB on page 16 (horse named Glad Leaper) that horses could have sentient INT and could learn spells etc. and so I am curious how this could happen without the horse being an allied spirit.

IIRC, from some of the old RQ2/RQ3 material, roughly 1/1000 of animals may be sentient.  Example was the intelligent fish in the Pavis scenario Temple at Feroda.  Not common, but they exist.

[Erol of Backford]

So reading through Glorantha Sourcebook I was excited to see the Waertagi discussed. And so searching the Forum and old fanzines I have I began to think of scenario ideas. Again the campaign I am planning is begining about 1600 and is based in Backford long before the Scorpionmen take over. Hopefully the PC will have relocated long before then?

The one that seems easy enough to generate would be for say a either a Waertagi or God Learner ship, or more likely, a portion of a ship has floundered on the shoals off of Sklar and the PC's are sent to investigate. 

Has anyone detailed anything on a Waetagi ship or something the God Learners may have had? Did the God Learners have ships?

Is one of these ships powered by something similar to Shell Island (but much much larger) that appears in Tales #10 p.9 Storms in the Deep or assuming the sea dragon or whatever was hollowed out as I don't like the idea that a city was just built on the back of the sea dragon, does it have something like the Underworld p.43 of the same Tales #10 powering it or is it more like the Mostali areas described in the Haunted Ruins p.26. Being very large it would have the cross section nearly as complex as an Iowa Class Battleship nearly, 900' long I am guessing:

Again, sorry to post on this if it was already somewhere but I didn't find anything when I searched and am not so confident to begin a new post as of yet...

Thank you all.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[Alex]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:50 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Should this be a new thread?

I can't speak for anyone else -- much  less the forum mods for what's Best Practice locally -- bu I'd say in practice no-one is likely to object to you covering any campaign-related matters here.  Can't really be accused of "hijacking" your own thread.  OTOH it might be in your interests to post clearly separate topics in new threads, on the basis that someone that became double-glazed-over at a "Backford" thread wouldn't bother with followups to it, but may instantly perk up and chime in on a different topic.  "Ah, Free INT, my specialist subject!!"  For example.

 

On 9/21/2021 at 5:50 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Are horses able to be awakened similar to the Release INT spell the Morokanth have in Prax? Would there be some sort of Hero Quest as noted in the GSB, again p16 that could be conducted?

Good questions.  To rules-lawyer the first part, "Release Intelligence", as in the RQ3 rune magic, would cover this...  but its RQG equivalent, "Alter Creature", expressly does not.  Horses aren't part of the Praxian Survival Covenant, and Praxians will loudly and emphatically tell you this at any desired length, and more.  (Until they start getting violent on the point, at least.)  Two logical candidates for cultures that might have a similar magic that's horse-applicable are the Pol Joni and the Grazers.  But I doubt they have it as rune magic, as it'd surely have been described as such by this point.  Mind you, there's no accounting for rare and obscure sub-cults!  The answer "can it be done in a heroquest?" is for me pretty much always "yes, but now we're haggling about the difficulty". Which could be anywhere between "a tad more difficult and expensive than rune magic" and "take the world apart and put it back together again".  On the lower end of that scale here, I think, given the similar precedents.

For the Pol Joni this would be a pretty big deal if they could do it, as it would in effect forcefully elbow their way even deeper into Praxian culture, in a way the (other) Praxian tribes are, as noted, extremely resistant to.  So plus side, you'd have ready support for trying to do this...  on the minus, even more opposition.

I'm not aware of the Grazers having any parallel myth to the Praxian one, but it seems a dead cert they have a practical and magical interest in ever-more-shiny-and-nifty horses generally.  Whether this looks like a short ritual or a multi-generational breeding programme is something you might have to decide for yourself.

 

On 9/21/2021 at 5:50 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Griffins and Hippogriff are already noted as being able to speak and cast spells. Would one just need to know speak with birds to communicate with them (They are both birds/birdlike no, hawk and or eagle headed?) meaning is there a speak with horses ability?

All of the above are Fire creatures, so if the process were bespoke to horses, but worked analogously to the Praxian one, I imagine they'd immediately be able to communicate in Firespeech.  Especially if the HQ/bigger and better rune magic were Grazer in origin.

[Scotty]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:50 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Should this be a new thread?

Not if you don't want to. If it's part of your campaign research keep it here. I've tagged this thread as a personal runequest campaign, so it's clear to all what it's about (that also means that when others go way off topic, their comments can be removed as not relevant to your topic). keep going it's interesting.

[jajagappa]

22 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Has anyone detailed anything on a Waetagi ship or something the God Learners may have had? Did the God Learners have ships?

The Waertagi ships are giant sea-dragons (I personally favor that they are carved from and into them, but that the sea-dragons are still living).  There's a picture of one in the Guide (vol2, p.464) along with a few of their "fast ships".  The description is on p. 465.

And, yes, the God Learners had ships.  Also on p.465: "A Waertagi fleet, accompanied by an aquatic army of Triolini, struck at Jrustela and was met by a defending fleet. The navies engaged briefly, but the Jrusteli summoned the god Tanian, who ignited the waters and burned the unburnable. Most of the Waertagi city ships were destroyed to the last inhabitant, along with nearly the whole of the Triolini host. The survivors scattered to the far corners of the world to elude Jrusteli reprisals and to plot their revenge.  Humans calling themselves the Middle Sea Empire [i.e. the God Learners] sailed the seas for the next several centuries. Their ships were far less efficient than those of the Waertagi, especially in riding the Doom Currents which snake through the oceans. Wooden ships cannot long stand such strain, and so must sail on the slower waters."

22 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

The one that seems easy enough to generate would be for say a either a Waertagi or God Learner ship, or more likely, a portion of a ship has floundered on the shoals off of Sklar and the PC's are sent to investigate. 

Given the timeframe of your campaign, you're probably not going to have the sea-dragon ships appear without it skewing your subsequent storyline.  This would be a Major Event.

The approach I'd likely take is to utilize the Closing (which doesn't truly end until the Boat Planet rises in 1624).  Whether a piece of a still-burning Waertagi fast ship, or the wreck of one (or the wreck of a Jrusteli ship), I'd have it emerge out of the fogs of the Closing within the Mirrorsea Bay.  The southwesterly winds blown by Orlanth drive it towards the Heortland coast where what is left comes ashore.  It will likely be pursued by ludoch who claim it for themselves. 

 

[Joerg]

 

 

On 10/3/2021 at 4:54 AM, Erol of Backford said:

The one that seems easy enough to generate would be for say a either a Waertagi or God Learner ship, or more likely, a portion of a ship has floundered on the shoals off of Sklar and the PC's are sent to investigate. 

That wreck would have to be either rather ancient, discovered during the first expeditions of the Opening (possibly as a ghost ship), or (in case of the Waertagi) from after their return from the Underworld.

A stranded city ship would have made a big splash in the history of Kethaela, so it would have to be one of the smaller (though probably still quite impressive) Waertagi ships.

 

On 10/3/2021 at 4:54 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Has anyone detailed anything on a Waetagi ship or

 

 There have been vague descriptions of a Waertagi Fastship, a lesser vessel designed to move underwater to deliver marines to unsuspecting ships or ports - something like an assault shuttle, probably with a ram.

Built from Sea Dragon parts (skin, ribs), I think it is a mix of a coracle and Davy Jones' galley. Propulsion would be a giant water elemental, or decently sized sea creatures (e.g. orcas) pulling it from harnesses that can be dropped to scavenge the waters around the target.

 

On 10/3/2021 at 4:54 AM, Erol of Backford said:

something the God Learners may have had? Did the God Learners have ships?

One God Learner ship type used against Durengard were fire-spitting turtle galleys, probably similar to the Korean iron-clad galleys.

 

The original God Learner ships used by the Free Men of the Seas appear to be armed merchantmen sailing ships rather than galleys, used for early clandestine crossings between Jrustela and Umathela as soon as the Abiding Book had been analyzed by sorcerers to incinerate most of Vralos.

After the Battle of Tanian's Victory, the Jrusteli started to build bigger ships and dedicated warships.

 

On 10/3/2021 at 4:54 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Is one of these ships powered by something similar to Shell Island (but much much larger) that appears in Tales #10 p.9 Storms in the Deep or assuming the sea dragon or whatever was hollowed out as I don't like the idea that a city was just built on the back of the sea dragon,

IMO the Waertagi city-ships share a lot with the original assault-carrier dragons Tolkien had in the pre-SIlmarillion Fall of Gondolin, with significant hollow portions inside that could be used for crew quarters or storage.

The city-ships are weird semi-alive constructs, not alive in the sense of having a metabolism, but powered by magic - either residual magic of the original dragon, or by Waertagi sorceries drawing energies from somewhere.

While the city-ships probably account for more than half the total Waertagi population, the rest live on smaller vessels. The sea-going Waertagi have access to Sea Dragons for material, and not every sea-dragon becomes a city ship after being processed - th Aftal story mentions use of new captures for repairs of existing cities.

I have the impression that the Waertagi use of Sea Dragons has a lot in common with the making of dagonewt armor. The (offensive) technique may have come into Dragon Pass and the Elder Wilds from the Waertagi.

(There is something about magical taxidermy in the West - Waertagi city shios, Wolf Pirate wolf skins, Harrek's pelt... and also flensing enemies to make books.)

The Waertagi also have lesser ships that serve as housing, cargo transport and limited warships, and dedicated vessels for war escorting the habitat ones. Preferred mode of propulsion is sea creatures or water elementals (waves, currents) rather than paddles, although those are in the Aftal story, too.

It is possible that the sea-dragon city-ships that still resemble the former creature can use something similar to muscle power, but that might need magical sacrifice as fuel.

The riverine Waertagi of the Janube, Oronin and Poralistor rivers probably have switched to wooden boats or coracle-style craft using e,g, oxhides, unless the Sweet Sea and Lake Oronin offer bigger aquatious organisms to create their ships from.

 

On 10/3/2021 at 4:54 AM, Erol of Backford said:

does it have something like the Underworld p.43 of the same Tales #10 powering it or is it more like the Mostoli areas described in the Haunted Ruins p.26. Being very large it would have the cross section nearly as complex as an Iowa Class Battleship nearly, 900' long I am guessing:

An Iowa Class Battleship drifting ashore would be big news - compare the Edrenlin Archipelago off Maslo which is famous for a stranded Waertagi ship-wreck. The Jrusteli equivalent to the Roman pleasure barges would be as bg news, ibut slightly smaller vessels could have escaped notice of everybody but the local beach-combers.

Or a smaller vessel could be a starting point to a bigger one wrecked at Sog's Ruin. (Possibly starting the Beysib presence in Sanctuary version of Waertagi who had not been to Hell taking refuge in Refuge...)

[Erol of Backford]

What year would be the earliest you see Storms in the Deep or The Barren Isle taking place? 1624 would be very late or so I am thinking. What years were the author's suggesting the two scenarios in Tales 10 took place as they were written before the Guide? Again this campaign begins in 1600 and would be costal at best in my mind as there is way to much good material on land in Dragon pass and Prax...

Another interesting item would be that somehow dwarves are in the turtle ship with arquebuses and cannon. (Turnbull has some great samurai 1600's titles with Osprey) I don't like the concrete ship idea shown in Tales #10 for dwarves but iron (or some other metal) clad ships or even something similar to the ACW period would be welcome though they'd not be very seaworthy from what I understood from reading. Float spells and undines could rectify any of that however and dwarves are good engineers. Maybe Leonardo helped design something like this and its control mechanism went haywire?

It would be interesting to see something like this float up the Zola Fel or Syphon if a shallow draft? 275'/84m is a good bit smaller than any dragon ship and so not as obtrusive? Maybe its just a trading vessel...

[Alex]

17 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

What year would be the earliest you see Storms in the Deep or The Barren Isle taking place? 1624 would be very late or so I am thinking. What years were the author's suggesting the two scenarios in Tales 10 took place as they were written before the Guide? Again this campaign begins in 1600 and would be costal at best in my mind as there is way to much good material on land in Dragon pass and Prax...

Just had a quick look at them, and failed my Save vs Nostalgia badly.  I don't see any strong dependency on any particular year, apart from the matter of the difficulty of getting between the two, depending on the Opening.  Obviously for the (possibly) Manirian one, whether it's before or after the Wolf Pirates and the death of Belintar will affect the setting, but not the scenario itself, as far as I can see.

I think the default "current year" at that point was 1621, but then as now people played from any number of different points.  So I don't see a lot of percentage in angsting about what the authors may or may not have had in mind, if the material fits.  Or can be adapted to your purposes!

[Erol of Backford]

Reading through the 100's of posts (tab 34, its taking a long time to read through this stuff) I am used to Sun County in Sartar, p12 of Escape From Duckland and Adventures in the Land of the Sun, I also picked up the trilogy of Sandheart but not familiar with Vanntar? Is Sun County in Sartar the same as Vanntar, it's old name? Is there an actual map that shows the boundaries of Vanntar or is it the same as Sun County? Who would be the Lakarnos contact there and or would there be an Issaries shrine at or near the Sartar Sundome?

Also where is there detail on who's who in the Sartar, Sun County from 1600 ~ 1625 and the political relation with the Lunar Empire during that time?

One other question back in the late 80's my friends and I learned to really dislike Halcyon var Enkorth. What happens to him and who is slimier than him in all of Glorantha? Did he somehow die? Did he take revenge on Bluebird? Who was the unnamed oger with him noted on page 48 of Griffin Mountain?

Just look at him, what a grease-bag: