Historical settings poll

[Rurik]

Why? Do you suppose that the Inquisition is necessarily evil? Then you should not play Deus Vult

Fair enough (not that I was planning to play Deus Vult anyway). But in todays world it is hard to view the Inquisition as 'good' and Galileo as 'bad'. Back in their lifetimes it was very different for sure, but a few hundred years later the view that science was the good guy is almost universally held.

Though I would not qualify Deus Vult as a Historical Setting any more than I would Cthulhu Dark Ages. In a game where the evil is real the Inquisitor types come out looking a little better. If you were to write a game where Galileo and DaVinci were represented as agents of the devil bent on weakining the will of the devout to help Satan destroy the world I would think the Inquistors come across in a better light.I would call that more of a Historical Fantasy setting however.

But who knows, maybe my views have been corrupted by the devil.

[cjbowser]

On a scale of 1d100, how good is this one?

I'd give it a 50. There's not a lot of Cthulhu content, so fans of Cthulhu aren't going to be over thrilled. The author also changed history quite a bit, so fans of alternate history are going to be put off. The steampunk content is also toned down, so those looking for A Court in the Air aren't going to find it.

The scenario itself is pretty interesting.

[sdavies2720]

I was looking for something a bit more subtle than most Steampunk, where the magic is more mystical and spiritual and the science less fantastic. Galileo and Leonardo vs. the Inquisition would be very interesting as well - though in that setting science would be unequivocally the 'good' side.

If you look at it as a Moorcock setting, the Inquisition is definitely on the side of Law and Galilieo is definitely on the side of Chaos. Look at the havoc Galileo wreaked on the prevailing worldview.

Steve

[Thalaba]

Aztecs/mayans etc seems an interesting setting, but one in which there are a number of very distinct cultures at different times. The religions look interesting as well, but how much mileage would you get from such a setting?

Why would you get any less mileage from this setting than any other? People loved, hated, and fought for their ideals just as in any other setting.

Ancient Middle East only really appeals from an Arabian Nights viewpoint. That would be a really good setting.

The Arabian nights are often held up as an ideal setting for middle eastern adventures, but they seem to be poorly understood in the historical context (including my me, until recently). The origin of the initial set of stories was in Persian and Indian folktales (ie. Indo-european, not semitic), and many of the same tales can be found in vedic texts. The first tales were set down in the 800'sAD, so the format that they have come down to us in is not 'ancient'. But some can be traced to much older material (Sindbad, for instance, draws some inspiration from the legends of Odysseus - but not from Homer's version). Most of the original tales in the cycle are very bawdy and have stories about sexual infidelity, merchants who get cheated out of their wealth, and presumptuous people who get their come-uppance. Some of them are about ordinary people to whom misfortune falls and never gets rectified by the end of the story. I think that a read through these would give most people some ideas for interesting NPCs, but would not really be considered great fodder for campaigns.

Many tales were added later, and these later ones include many medieval arabic stories. The tale of Aladdin, perhaps the most famous, is a medieval arab folktale about a Chinese man (or at least, the Medieval Arabic image of a chinese man). This tale wasn't added to the corpus until around 1700 - by a frenchman. The Arabs did not consider the 1001 Night to be a part of their literature - it's survival is largely due to romantic ideas in the west, and it is through these eyes that we see them. There is almost no 'ancient middle east' in the Arabian nights, which is not to say, of course, that they wouldn't make for a great historic-fantasy setting.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Thalaba

[Atgxtg]

Fair enough (not that I was planning to play Deus Vult anyway). But in todays world it is hard to view the Inquisition as 'good' and Galileo as 'bad'. Back in their lifetimes it was very different for sure, but a few hundred years later the view that science was the good guy is almost universally held.

Though I would not qualify Deus Vult as a Historical Setting any more than I would Cthulhu Dark Ages. In a game where the evil is real the Inquisitor types come out looking a little better. If you were to write a game where Galileo and DaVinci were represented as agents of the devil bent on weakining the will of the devout to help Satan destroy the world I would think the Inquistors come across in a better light.I would call that more of a Historical Fantasy setting however.

But who knows, maybe my views have been corrupted by the devil.

Ah, but "history is written by the victor". We view science as good today partly because the scientific method of thinking is the accepted one. Plus we'd have the benefits of centuries of scientific advancement. We can all see the benefits of computers, electricity, vehicles, and modern medicine, to name but a few of the wonders of the modern age. We can't prove scientifically that some sort of God exists, or than we have immortal souls. Since we can't prove that we can't prove the benefits of The benefits of religion or faith.

But that way of thinking is scientific.

You might be interested in Ars Magic and or Mage: the Awakening.

In the former, magic and the church as two powers that while not directly opposed, have negative effects on each other.

In the latter, the way reality works is shaped by people's beliefs. Science is esseintally a magical paradigm, and as more people started to believe in it, the stronger it became and the weaker other types of magic became.

[rust]

The Arabian nights are often held up as an ideal setting for middle eastern adventures ... (...) ...I think that a read through these would give most people some ideas for interesting NPCs, but would not really be considered great fodder for campaigns.

Indeed. If I were looking for interesting material for a campaign in the wider

ancient and early medieval Middle East, I would probably turn to a transla-

tion of the Shahnameh, the Persian national epos. It is both considerably

older than most of the Arabian Nights and more focussed on the history of

a part of the region, and it contains at least as fascinating stories, especial-

ly those about Rostam - most highly recommended.

Shahnameh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rostam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[IndianaKen]

I voted for Aztecs/ Mayans/ etc... because Ancient North America gets the short end of the stick in RPG's. I would love to see a game, even a monograph, that looks at pre-contact First Nations in a knowledgeable way. There are many rich cultures with interesting histories, and even some with histories clouded in the mists of the past (i.e the Mississippians and the Anasazi) that would make ideal settings for adventure in a variety of lenses.

Thanks for the plug RosenMcStern, this month is only the first part of a four part series on prehistory. For those of you unfamiliar with my column, A Bit of History, I look at an aspect of historical gaming each month. Usually its a setting with background information and a campaign seed.

[Vorax Transtellaris]

I voted for Aztec/Mayan. With 'Aztec' included in the title of this setting we already focus on a fairly short part of the precolumbian Mesoamerican past (1325-1521 AD). This is a good thing, mind you, because it's no use trying to filter a usable game setting from thousands of years of history. It would be most interesting to present a detailed image of Mesoamerica during the reign of the Aztec Triple Alliance.

There have been a few products on the RPG market concerning Mesoamerica but unfortunately most were not done very well, and that's keeping it friendly;). In fact I can think of only two decent products: Steve Jackson Games' GURPS Aztec and Pagan Publishing's CoC sourcebook Mysteries of Mesoamerica, though the latter is of no use for setting your game in the precolumbian past because it lacks decent, recent and clear information on the period. So we're basically stuck with one source, which is a bit meagre.

Regards,

a Mesoamerica fan

Edited December 18, 2009 by Vorax Transtellaris

[seneschal]

So far, we've got Ancient Greece and Indian Subcontinent as the leaders ... so if we can just get Warlords of Alexander (aka Alex Heads East, Hey! Wasn't that a kid's movie a few years ago?) into professional trim, we can cover both in one fell swoop!

[Toadmaster]

There was a BRP based Aztec / Mayan game started in the mid 80s. I don't recall all the details now as it has been sometime. I remember signing up for a playtest of it at Dundracon, run by one of the Chaosium people. I wonder if it might still be floating around at Chaosium.

[SDLeary]

If an ancient supplement is done, I would suggest something simply based on the Eastern Med, roughly the end of the Minoan thru the Mycenaean period. This would allow for Trojan/Homeric Greece, Sea Peoples, Cannan, Babylon, Hitties, Egyptians, et.al. In other words a whole hell of a lot of Heroic stuff.

SDLeary

[Vorax Transtellaris]

There was a BRP based Aztec / Mayan game started in the mid 80s. I don't recall all the details now as it has been sometime. I remember signing up for a playtest of it at Dundracon, run by one of the Chaosium people. I wonder if it might still be floating around at Chaosium.

There also was Temples of Blood (1985) by Pacesetter and Aztecs: Empire of the Dying Sun (2002) by Avalanche Press, both of which suffered from sensationalism, a lack of historical detail and, quite frankly, sucked big time, representing the Aztec as no more than another interesting fantasy race. The cover of the latter says it all (click link)!

There really is a lack of historically correct and respectful gaming materials concerning precolumbian Mesoamerica, hence my choice.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Vorax Transtellaris

[RosenMcStern]

It should be more correctly labeled as "35D" rather than "D20" system, given the "attributes" displayed by the priestess in the cover art.

[Agentorange]

. The cover of the latter says it all (click link)!

Sadly it's covers like that that give RPG's a bad name.....I mean those battle axes are completely inaccurate for the setting.

[Vorax Transtellaris]

Sadly it's covers like that that give RPG's a bad name.....I mean those battle axes are completely inaccurate for the setting.

The whole way of dressing is in accurate as well, no woman dressed like that! This woman would be considered highly offensive in Aztec society and probably be punished accordingly for bringing shame to her calpulli.

Anyway, if Chaosium would do a properly researched and designed sourcebook for playing in an Aztec setting I'd definitely be interested in buying it.

[Wolfgar]

Avalanche Press did a whole series of books like that; including a Norse/Viking book where the woman on the cover must have died from hypothermia.

I'd kind of like to vote other. I like Victorian/Regency settings.

[rust]

Avalanche Press did a whole series of books like that; including a Norse/Viking book where the woman on the cover must have died from hypothermia.

Yep, just take a look at this one. It is an adventure about the mysterious

end of the Norse colony on Greenland, but you really only have to look at

the cover to know why these Norse in Greenland went extinct ...

[TRose]

I Voted for Renaissance but in truth I would like one a century later in the Age of exploration of the new world. The Conquistadors are almost perfect for role playing. Pizarro took on the Inca Empire with just 17 people at one point. That's easy 6 players and 11 hirelings. And De Vaca was down to just 4 people in exploring the Southwest.

[Vorax Transtellaris]

Avalanche Press did a whole series of books like that; including a Norse/Viking book where the woman on the cover must have died from hypothermia. (...)

Haha, yes, just look at this *cough* Egyptian *cough* sourcebook. And THIS or THIS! I mean, wtf!!

Yep, just take a look at this one. It is an adventure about the mysterious

end of the Norse colony on Greenland, but you really only have to look at

the cover to know why these Norse in Greenland went extinct ...

Besides, the reasons for its decline aren't that mysterious anyway, if you do some proper research. Edited December 20, 2009 by Vorax Transtellaris

[RosenMcStern]

Gentlemen, thanks to Avalanche Press, this thread is bordering the territory of NSFW.

[Vorax Transtellaris]

OK OK, back on topic now. Apart from my by now obvious obsession with Aztec themeds roleplaying material, a sourcebook covering the precolumbian Inca empire would also be pretty cool. :cool:

[Agentorange]

Haha, yes, just look at this *cough* Egyptian *cough* sourcebook. And THIS or THIS! I mean, wtf!!

Besides, the reasons for its decline aren't that mysterious anyway, if you do some proper research.

Bizarrely the Egyption one may be the most accurate, a couple of books I've read about Egypt suggest that semi nudity wasn't all that uncommon.

[Agentorange]

I'll let this:

rpgartwork.jpg

have the last word on the subject for the moment

[threedeesix]

I voted Dark Ages Europe. I'm for some reason stuck in that historical setting

[soltakss]

A Minoan supplement would have bare-breasted women on the cover and be historically accurate.