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Shaman get their abilities by bargaining with a Greater Entity (page 359). For Chaos shaman, this is likely to be Thed itself (as the source of chaos shamanism, stolen from the Horned Man).  I

Yes, just pick other taboos. It is focussed on the shaman available in the core rules: Daka Fal, Waha, and Golden Bow, so it's bound to be narrow.

A Fiend of Cacodemon might since their ogre followers are naturally superior to broo, and it would no doubt delight them to create consternation among Thed's followers. Would they actually follow

11 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The table on page 363 obviously does not work for all Shamans. I for one can not see a Broo Shaman of Thed having to adhere to any celibacies taboos. Has anyone came up with thier own tables for this?

If you need to detail the taboos, just roll again, pick an appropriate one, alter, or alter to fit, or use curse of Thed in their place. They have to go through the ritual of Rebirth as well as have the normal qualifications to be a priest as well.

IMO, the celibacy taboos would be excellent for a Thed Shaman-Priest, given they are NPCs this would make for an excellent twist to the character, who knows how this would manifest. 

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IMO, the celibacy taboos would be excellent for a Thed Shaman-Priest, given they are NPCs this would make for an excellent twist to the character, who knows how this would manifest. 

At the same time the taboo of always attempt to breed would work as well and what about all of the weapon prohibitions when the shaman does not have hands. The table just seems too narrow focused. 

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20 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

At the same time the taboo of always attempt to breed would work as well and what about all of the weapon prohibitions when the shaman does not have hands.

Yes, just pick other taboos.

20 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The table just seems too narrow focused. 

It is focussed on the shaman available in the core rules: Daka Fal, Waha, and Golden Bow, so it's bound to be narrow.

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I am a great fan of picking other taboos. 

For example, every Tradition will have sacred places and shamans need to go to a pilgrimage there. so, amend the relevant taboo to change the sacred place. 

Similarly, change the sacred animal that cannot be eaten to be something more relevant to the Tradition.

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Firstly, I just took that list as a very short list of suggestions. Coming up with your own makes far more sense.

As for Chaotic shamans... Would they actually follow a taboo? Wouldn't that almost be anti-thetical to their existence? 

And what sort of Chaos spirit would tell a broo it couldn't procreate???

 

You'll never undo all the universe if you keep following all the(ir) rules!

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1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

As for Chaotic shamans... Would they actually follow a taboo? Wouldn't that almost be anti-thetical to their existence? 

And what sort of Chaos spirit would tell a broo it couldn't procreate???

A Fiend of Cacodemon might since their ogre followers are naturally superior to broo, and it would no doubt delight them to create consternation among Thed's followers.

Would they actually follow a taboo?  If they got more power or powers by doing so, sure.  Look at Thanatar - he gives gifts, but his followers must take geases to get them.  You can think of them as the "constraints" that tied the spirit or deity to Time - relics of their own path wherein they gave up certain powers and abilities to gain others, and once powers were lost they could not regain them.  The taking of gifts and assumption of taboos simply reflects the paths of these spirits and gods.

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Would they actually follow a taboo?  If they got more power or powers by doing so, sure.  Look at Thanatar - he gives gifts, but his followers must take geases to get them.  You can think of them as the "constraints" that tied the spirit or deity to Time - relics of their own path wherein they gave up certain powers and abilities to gain others, and once powers were lost they could not regain them.  The taking of gifts and assumption of taboos simply reflects the paths of these spirits and gods.

Which is also another reason as to why illumination is desirable for a Chaotic.

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8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

As for Chaotic shamans... Would they actually follow a taboo? Wouldn't that almost be anti-thetical to their existence? 

Of course they would.

Taboos are ways that followers of a Spirit must live in order for the Spirit to continue to grant them magic.

If they don't want the magic they don't need to follow the taboos.

They might not like it and they might try to find ways around it, but a Taboo is merely one of the costs of having that magic.

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And what sort of Chaos spirit would tell a broo it couldn't procreate???

My guess is that spirits normally contacted by Broos don't have celibacy taboos.

But, even if they did, the Broo must follow it to keep the magic, so it has a choice.

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

You'll never undo all the universe if you keep following all the(ir) rules!

It depends on the rules.

"Eat one sentient creature per Season" is a reasonable Taboo from a Chaotic Spirit, for example.

5 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Which is also another reason as to why illumination is desirable for a Chaotic.

Exactly.

 

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6 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Which is also another reason as to why illumination is desirable for a Chaotic.

Given that the core power of illumination is:

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The illuminated one will know as truth that Chaos is, in itself, neither evil nor inimical. [...] Likewise, it frees creatures of Chaos from their twisted convictions and offers them the chance to rid themselves of the hate which rules their lives.

I'm not sure that will help.

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The illuminated one will know as truth that Chaos is, in itself, neither evil nor inimical. [...] Likewise, it frees creatures of Chaos from their twisted convictions and offers them the chance to rid themselves of the hate which rules their lives.

I'm not sure that will help.

 

A chance that they may or may not take. It would require contemplation, meditation and reasoning. A wast majority of Chaos may not have the luxury of time to even consider.

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7 hours ago, Godlearner said:

 

A chance that they may or may not take. It would require contemplation, meditation and reasoning. A wast majority of Chaos may not have the luxury of time to even consider.

Uhh... Spirit gives taboo, broo follows.

Otherwise spirit mad. 

Broos are sentient, and not all of them are feral. They can speak, they can get rune magic, they do ceremonies ... They sure as hell are able to follow a taboo.

A celibacy taboo can perfectly work on broo. You aren't supposed to like the taboo, it's like a divine geas. 

If the broo doesn't like the taboo let them break it and find out what happens.

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2 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yeah, nothing happens if the Broo is illuminated.

I'm not so sure. I don't think illumination is a switch which once flipped renders the subject entirely immune to all forms of otherworldly consequences.

This gets to the heart of why illumination is reputed to have an effect like this. And perhaps this is a better topic for the other place, so I'll leave in depth discussion of that for another thread. It's been done many times.

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3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm not so sure. I don't think illumination is a switch which once flipped renders the subject entirely immune to all forms of otherworldly consequences.

This gets to the heart of why illumination is reputed to have an effect like this. And perhaps this is a better topic for the other place, so I'll leave in depth discussion of that for another thread. It's been done many times.

Normally I may agree with that, but the topic here is Shaman Taboos, and it seems how they interact with Illumination is spot on for discussion. So, who/what enforces these Taboos? 

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14 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Normally I may agree with that, but the topic here is Shaman Taboos, and it seems how they interact with Illumination is spot on for discussion. So, who/what enforces these Taboos? 

I think the spirit does, or the spirit's allies and agents. Spirits are not the same as gods, they are not as strongly bound by time for example. I don't know if that is a factor here or not.

Now we don't have up to date rules for illumination in RQG, but for now let's look at the Stormspearia rules in Secrets of Dorastor. There he has "Immune to cult spirits of reprisal" as a "common power", which nearly all illuminates have. "Ignore Cult Restriction", however, is a special illumination ability that is acquired separately.

Those, of course, are fan-published rules and not canonical, but setting that aside, we at least have a precedent available for illuminates to be immune to some forms of restriction or consequence, but not necessarily others. Personally, I'd make more of the abilities earned and give out fewer upon initial illumination.

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I think the spirit does, or the spirit's allies and agents. Spirits are not the same as gods, they are not as strongly bound by time for example. I don't know if that is a factor here or not.

These Taboos are taken to reset stat loss for Shamanic Abilities. Which spirit is enforcing that?

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Another data point on illuminate immunity:

8 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

These Taboos are taken to reset stat loss for Shamanic Abilities. Which spirit is enforcing that?

I don't know. That's partly why I didn't want to get too deep into this discussion.

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12 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Yeah, nothing happens if the Broo is illuminated.

the issue I see with illumination is we know the benefits (rules + background) but we know only "background" issues no rules issues.

If/when i will face illumination, I probably would define some passion / geas or anything

there is no reason that illumination brings no cost.

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13 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Which spirit is enforcing that?

Shaman get their abilities by bargaining with a Greater Entity (page 359). For Chaos shaman, this is likely to be Thed itself (as the source of chaos shamanism, stolen from the Horned Man). 

14 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Yeah, nothing happens if the Broo is illuminated.

I don't think there is any illumination power that gives immunity to intercession by a Greater entity.

Of the eight illumination powers, most have only the first three. Not everyone has them all. The uncommon ones that would be relevant are:

  • Power to Ignore Cult Restrictions
  • Immunity to Spirits of Reprisal

The abilities' source is the Greater entity, so it's not a cult restriction and the Greater entity is not a spirit of reprisal. I always have the shaman's Greater entity appear from time to time. Remember, the Horned Man is often in the Middle World, whispering into children's dreams.

 

Edited by David Scott
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On 4/21/2021 at 2:19 AM, Godlearner said:

The table on page 363 obviously does not work for all Shamans. I for one can not see a Broo Shaman of Thed having to adhere to any celibacies taboos. Has anyone came up with thier own tables for this?

By extrapolation, why not just make it that the Broo Shaman has a taboo against consensual sexual relationships, and must commit a minimum of one rape per season or Thed gets annoyed and docks their special power ?

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53 minutes ago, Darius West said:

By extrapolation, why not just make it that the Broo Shaman has a taboo against consensual sexual relationships, and must...

I don't think Chaosium wants to publish game rules that go down that road.

Even for evil antagonists.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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I note that RQ:G does not state any effects of breaking a taboo. Let's say a shaman had the taboo 'Never eat elk meat.' The shaman is told a stew is made from impala. He consumes a bowl. But the stew is actually a mix, and includes a little elk in it. He unintentionally violated his taboo. What happens? 

Let's say his rival specifically set up the situation and had added a few pounds of elk meat to the stew unknown to the chef. Does that change anything in the shaman's powers. Obviously, it is an adventure hook.

If the shaman has made contact with additional spirit gods, and thus has a relationship with one powerful spirit that cares whether he eats elk meat, and another that doesn't care a bit. Can the shaman get all his powers from the latter and ignore the unintentional violation?

Of course, it depends on how the GM wants the story to proceed. But nothing in the rules as written.

 

Speaking of specific taboos, I didn't quite get the wording of 'Never eat any meat of any animal spirit creature'. In the nature of Glorantha, doesn't every extant Beast species with 'meat' have an animal spirit creature'? Even some that are no longer extant. Even fish. So the shaman with that taboo can only eat meat from Man rune creatures, e.g. trollkin, herd beasts. Because those would have 'spirit creatures', but not 'animal spirit creatures'. Or am I interpreting 'animal spirit creature' incorrectly?

 

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14 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think Chaosium wants to publish game rules that go down that road.

Ya don't say... 

(Probably best not to play broos then, huh?)

Edited by Darius West
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