Western Hero Wars Status Quo

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Protestant reformers burned icons, nailed reformations onto churches, railed against excess, trimmed the fat, demanded a narrow new piety without priesthood, repudiated the past for a new future based on new interpretations. All light and fury, wrapped in sack-cloth.

Rokar is 100% the fury of the Reformation.

Gimme that Old Time Religion....  

 

but do remember that the reformers were burnt at the stake long before they got their happy fun time with the matches

[metcalph]

Another model for Rokar might be Pelagius, he of the Good Works.  He was shocked at the laxity and decadence of the Early Christians and taught the necessity of Good Works for Salvation.  He was opposed by Augustine of Hippo who won - in the West.  The Eastern Church didn't get execrized about this question because both Pelagius and Augustine wrote in Latin which they couldn't be arsed learning.

[Nevermet]

I understand the comparison between Rokar and the early Protestants such as Luther, Calvin, & Zwingli.  Not only were they seeking a spiritual & moral rejuvenation, but they did so by generally removing things (fewer sacraments, rejecting various practices as going too far beyond what texts justify, etc).  They also usually did so "from above" to a degree: the main figures in the early Reformation were generally well educated.  Rokar, meanwhile, surgically removed all wrong doctrine from the Abiding Book using REASON!, trying to turn the clock back to a time before Hrestol put them on the wrong path.

 

The analogy, however, falls apart for a few different reasons.  First, while we don't really know much about the origins of Rokarism and its historical context, it's probably very different than the context of Europe that the Reformation emerged within.  While I'm unsure if Rokarism was part of a national project since its inception, post-sundering Seshnela probably dis not have a highly centralized priesthood that various nobles wish to wrest power away from.  Also, I'm very curious what the relationship is between Rokar and Yomili.  Either way, however, Rokar was not a prophetic "cry from the wilderness".

 

(I'm now wondering what a Peasant Malkioni rebellion religion would look like... it would likely be funky, especially if it didn't fall into paganism)

[Nevermet]

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Another model for Rokar might be Pelagius, he of the Good Works.  He was shocked at the laxity and decadence of the Early Christians and taught the necessity of Good Works for Salvation.  He was opposed by Augustine of Hippo who won - in the West.  The Eastern Church didn't get execrized about this question because both Pelagius and Augustine wrote in Latin which they couldn't be arsed learning.

Oh, I like that.  As I understand it, Pelagius claimed that humans had all the capacities necessary to know God and do good works, no external grace necessary.  That would fit very well with the type of moralism we see among the Rokari, where the single most important thing is following your caste rules and purity laws.

[scott-martin]

I am loving all of this. This kind of concentrated debate is how the West (or any of the lozenge's corners) achieves a level of complexity and dramatic power comparable + compatible with what the Great Argrath Campaign unleashes for Dragon Pass . . . without the benefit of the intervening decades of experimental drift. What could go wrong?

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

early saints who were burnt alive on a holy wheel only to have the flames turn into winding flowers.

Hallaj (منصور حلاج) and other intoxicated walis are never far from my mind here because this is still part of Glorantha and so is at least open to mercy, miracles and other magical excess. Of course there's a pillar of severity too.

We haven't talked much about the Ascended Masters (sri, sar, sifu, sidi, saints) here because no dominant replacement for the old saints has emerged yet. But it will happen. I believe.
 

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Hallaj (منصور حلاج) and other intoxicated walis are never far from my mind here because this is still part of Glorantha and so is at least open to mercy, miracles and other magical excess.

Of course the example I gave was Saint Catherine of the Burning Wheel

 

[Nevermet]

10 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

We haven't talked much about the Ascended Masters (sri, sar, sifu, sidi, saints) here because no dominant replacement for the old saints has emerged yet. But it will happen. I believe.

Can I interest you in the pamphlet, Castelein the Traveller and his Journey Toward Ashara?  It demonstrates convincingly that Law in our age is dependant on Change, Harmony, and Communication.

 

Oh, you're interested? Lovely.  Bidding starts at 5 clacks

Edited May 9, 2021 by Nevermet

[Sir_Godspeed]

Okay, disclaimer, I'm going to mention something related to Islam, please don't make this weird.

I've been tempted to compare Rokarism with the Wahhabist Salafi movement, not so much due to the theology (although they share the "trimming away supposedly unnecessary additions" approach) but more in that it's a case of a specific religious/philosophical movement allying itself with a specific aristocratic dynasty in order to benefit from each other. 

Secondly, it's a little bit tempting to tie some comparisons to the Islamic Revolution in Iran, in the sense that it's a reactionary movement that seeks to put the religious scholars (ulema and Zzaburi, respectively) back in control of things. Obviously, the social contexts are VASTLY different (Rokar probably didn't lead a populist movement, unless he saw rabid mobs of dronar iconoclasts as useful), as are the results, but given mentions of religious police and such it's a comparison that is tantalizingly adjacent. 

We should keep in mind, however, that unlike the above movements, as well as the Protestant ones, Rokarism is perfectly fine with earthly sensuality and sensory excess. This is an interesting sticking point. Rokar's program is not one of intense, ongoing personal self-scrutiny meant to elevate the soul before the divine, his is a lot more collectively-minded. Maintain caste rules. This will ensure the survival and prosperity of society. That seems to be it, basically. The sacrifices this entails for the individual will be rewarded through Solace. This is not a matter of intense faith, but abiding laws ("sola lex", basically) . Therefore, Rokarism does not really require you to believe. It merely requires that you obey. Very much the opposite of Martin Luther or Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[Nevermet]

Great post

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Okay, disclaimer, I'm going to mention something related to Islam, please don't make this weird.

I've been tempted to compare Rokarism with the Wahhabist Salafi movement, not so much due to the theology (although they share the "trimming away supposedly unnecessary additions" approach) but more in that it's a case of a specific religious/philosophical movement allying itself with a specific aristocratic dynasty in order to benefit from each other. 

Secondly, it's a little bit tempting to tie some comparisons to the Islamic Revolution in Iran, in the sense that it's a reactionary movement that seeks to put the religious scholars (ulema and Zzaburi, respectively) back in control of things. Obviously, the social contexts are VASTLY different (Rokar probably didn't lead a populist movement, unless he saw rabid mobs of dronar iconoclasts as useful), as are the results, but given mentions of religious police and such it's a comparison that is tantalizingly adjacent. 

We should keep in mind, however, that unlike the above movements, as well as the Protestant ones, Rokarism is perfectly fine with earthly sensuality and sensory excess. This is an interesting sticking point. Rokar's program is not one of intense, ongoing personal self-scrutiny meant to elevate the soul before the divine, his is a lot more collectively-minded. Maintain caste rules. This will ensure the survival and prosperity of society. That seems to be it, basically. The sacrifices this entails for the individual will be rewarded through Solace. This is not a matter of intense faith, but abiding laws ("sola lex", basically) . Therefore, Rokarism does not really require you to believe. It merely requires that you obey. Very much the opposite of Martin Luther or Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab.

Yes. This is spot on. The Sadducees and Pharisees or the Chinese Legalists are IMO far better sources of ideas about the Rokari than Martin Luther or the Salafis. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yes. This is spot on. The Sadducees and Pharisees or the Chinese Legalists are IMO far better sources of ideas about the Rokari than Martin Luther or the Salafis. 

The Sadducees and Pharisees were the ancestors of the Qaraite and Rabbanite Jews, respectively

Pictured: the Qaraite synagogue of Vilne (Vilnius, Lithuania)

Edited May 10, 2021 by Qizilbashwoman

[dumuzid]

I'm curious what role you all think the Red Sword of the Artmali Emperors, housed in the (apparently long disused) Temple of War at Spada in Loskalm circa 1618, will play in the Western hero wars.

Given Hero Wars prophecies about other regions of the globe it seems that the Teshnan hero-sailor Gebel and the Veldang hero Gabaryanga are supposed to visit the area on their joint quest to recover the sword and restore Artmal, but I don't recall reading any reference to what events transpire in Fronela that see sword leave its current resting place. 

The sword was stored in that old barbarian temple well before the Ban.  Its last recorded use that I know of is when a 'foreign hero named Avlor' wielded it in the revolt that freed Fronela from the post-Closing God Learners.  Avlor may or may not be Avalor, the only Jrusteli ruler of Melib who could both draw and sheathe the sword from its previous resting place, Tolat's great temple there.  Avalor abdicated his throne late in the Middle Sea Empire to chase the kidnappers of his wife into the west, and took the sword with him.  I've never read any detailed account of Avlor's participation in the expulsion of the God Learners.

It strikes me that the Red Sword may have a role to play in relation to the Kingdom of War before the foreign heroes take it out to sea.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

but I don't recall reading any reference to what events transpire in Fronela that see sword leave its current resting place

Sounds like something the Fronelans would bring out in the War against War.

[Snugz]

5 hours ago, dumuzid said:

The sword was stored in that old barbarian temple well before the Ban.  Its last recorded use that I know of is when a 'foreign hero named Avlor' wielded it in the revolt that freed Fronela from the post-Closing God Learners.  Avlor may or may not be Avalor, the only Jrusteli ruler of Melib who could both draw and sheathe the sword from its previous resting place, Tolat's great temple there. 

Yeah seems to be Avalor-- https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Avalor

[dumuzid]

On 5/10/2021 at 10:00 PM, jajagappa said:

Sounds like something the Fronelans would bring out in the War against War.

I've thought the same; specifically, that Meriatan might try to resort to the God Learner techniques used in the Second Age to partially master the sword (see accounts of Ordanal and the founding of Eest) should the first serious confrontations between Loskalm and the KoW go poorly.

[Eff]

The Red Sword returns to the West after departing, too. The Red Emperor carries the "sword of Shargash" when he marches down the Janube in the 1640s, and after accepting tribute from Sog City he "cleans his weapons in the salt sea". 

The Red Emperor, as the son of a moon goddess, is probably a good proxy for Artmal himself, and this completed circumnavigation may be the final healing of Artmal, allowing him to complete his celestial cycle rather than vanishing during Sacred Time. 

Or, alternately, Shargash also has a green sword he gave to Phargentes the Younger. That also works. 

[scott-martin]

Loving the cosmic handshake emerging here. "In the Greater Hero War There Is No East Or West." That said, the notion of Phargentes TakenEgi being the in-game collector / repairer of recalcitrant "moons" around the lozenge is really funny. Maybe this is where the Blue and Red come to terms, on the purple edge of the world. Who hates the purple people? Altinelans. What color is their moon? White.

It's also interesting in this context that the Lunar march to Sog doesn't feel much like the Monster Empire of Selero-Argrathian propaganda. There may be truly multiple empires at this stage, each big as a moon. Or the Monster may not emerge until the late 1640s or even later.  Either way, a note of hope for the true moonies and caution for those expecting Sheng right around the corner. The world needs time to get that far off its moorings.

East and West. To continue the handshake, if I were into the fine doctrinaire politics of sorcery, I would spend all my free effort trying to hack the Valkaro Method. This is more than an exotic novelty. Valkaro figured out how to run the system without talar intervention or oversight. It's a big deal that their western brothers will want to be able to copy as the talar function evolves in the west and the island takes a hungry glacier to the face.

[Sir_Godspeed]

I am WOEFULLY inadequate in my understanding of what exactly happens in the Lunar Empire after a certain point. It seems super weird that Phargentes leads a MASSIVE trek though the entire Janubian drainage basin, while the imperial support system back home is basically on fire or basically post-apocalyptic. But the thing is, I don't even know when exactly the Monster Empire occurs and when the Red Moon is pulled down, so it's all a soup in my mind.

 

[scott-martin]

29 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

when exactly the Monster Empire occurs

Most of us are still grappling with scraps here, which is one of the deep ulterior motives behind these threads. The Empire only incidentally faces Argrath in the known 1621-5 window. Most of its sprawling attention is elsewhere, on transregional policies, politics and processes like the ones we are reviewing now.

Half the time I am inclined to think the entire Monster narrative is an apocalyptic fragment that got copied into the more secular Argrath Saga (hail the harshax) and then traveled with it thereafter like Revelations appended to the Bible . . . or the non-synoptic Gospel of John, for that matter. An interloper. A different perspective. Maybe even a contradictory perspective, more concerned with a psychedelic ("bardo") theory of consciousness than secular reportage.

Supposedly, however, revisionist historians say the Red Emperor experiment ends in 1648. This is not necessarily Sheng, who rules the [Shadow Moon]{New Moon} until a notional Gardint date of 1650. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by scott-martin
felicity becomes clarity: no blame

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Loving the cosmic handshake emerging here. "In the Greater Hero War There Is No East Or West." That said, the notion of Phargentes TakenEgi being the in-game collector / repairer of recalcitrant "moons" around the lozenge is really funny. Maybe this is where the Blue and Red come to terms, on the purple edge of the world. Who hates the purple people? Altinelans. What color is their moon? White.

It's also interesting in this context that the Lunar march to Sog doesn't feel much like the Monster Empire of Selero-Argrathian propaganda. There may be truly multiple empires at this stage, each big as a moon. Or the Monster may not emerge until the late 1640s or even later.  Either way, a note of hope for the true moonies and caution for those expecting Sheng right around the corner. The world needs time to get that far off its moorings.

East and West. To continue the handshake, if I were into the fine doctrinaire politics of sorcery, I would spend all my free effort trying to hack the Valkaro Method. This is more than an exotic novelty. Valkaro figured out how to run the system without talar intervention or oversight. It's a big deal that their western brothers will want to be able to copy as the talar function evolves in the west and the island takes a hungry glacier to the face.

There is a lot going on in the later Lunar Empire. Like a mystical Napoleon or the Third Reich, the Lunar Empire engages in a whirlwind of conquest, only to collapse within a decade.

[John Biles]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I am WOEFULLY inadequate in my understanding of what exactly happens in the Lunar Empire after a certain point. It seems super weird that Phargentes leads a MASSIVE trek though the entire Janubian drainage basin, while the imperial support system back home is basically on fire or basically post-apocalyptic. But the thing is, I don't even know when exactly the Monster Empire occurs and when the Red Moon is pulled down, so it's all a soup in my mind.

 

IF you assume the Kingdom of War and Loksalm basically were both reduced to impotence by their war, an easy Lunar conquest seems plausible to me.

 

[dumuzid]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

 

Or, alternately, Shargash also has a green sword he gave to Phargentes the Younger. That also works. 

Well that's the rub: with the Red Sword(s), we're dealing with a lineage of parthenogenic magical sword reproduction.  My understanding of it is this: 

in the Gods War, Tolat fought what is termed a Chaos horror in the Sky and was nearly destroyed; this may or may not be his fight with Umath.  At some crucial point in the battle Artmal saved his uncle from defeat.  Afterwards Tolat gifted Artmal a sword, the offspring of his original Red Sword.  Much later in the Gods War, when the Artmali people first descended from the Blue Moon, Artmal repeated Tolat's act and offered the offspring of his own sword to the first mortal emperor of the Artmali.

At some point after Artmal's defeat by Baraku/Orlanth the king of the Zaranistangi gained a sword from the Artmali emperor.  Accounts of this are contradictory: some imply that the Zaranistangi took the sword by force, others imply a repetition of the Tolat gifting, where the emperor offered the sword to the king after the Zaranistangi saved him in battle.  This is the Red Sword that the Zaranistangi took to Sechkaul when they left Pamaltela and the wreck of the second Artmali Empire, and which King Dengbalu of the Zaranistangi used to save Melib from the Flood.  Whether it is the same sword the Artmali emperors carried, or another parthenogenic offspring of the Red Sword line, I don't know.  I would assume that the Red Sword carried by Artmal is with him in the Sea of Fire, where Orlanth drowned and dismembered him, but it might have been scattered across the worlds with his bones.

It's possible the sword carried by Phargentes is a new offspring of the Red Sword line, or an earlier entry--maybe he quests for and wins the original in the Gods Realm as part of subduing Alkoth, for instance.

Given how the Third Age Flood is supposed to effect Fronela, and the several opportunities in the region for sword-carrying leaders to be nearly defeated only to be rescued by plucky young go-getters in Fronela, I can see plenty of ways for the Red Sword lineage's mythology to inflect the Western Hero Wars.  Phargentes could get his Red Sword by leading the surgical Moonboat strike that saves whoever's wielding the Spada sword from Lord Death on a Horse.  Gebel and Gabaryanga could gain their Red Sword by helping avert some disaster for the Loskalmi and a Sword-wielding Meriatan.  There's all sorts of possibilities--especially since King Congern, as the king of Jonatela, is a high priest of Vorthan, the Fronelan cult to the Red Planet.

[Eff]

Minor note for clarity: Phargentes II TakenEgi fights the "Great Talar of the West, who was oppressing the Arrolian Properties", who is in other apocalyptic material the ruler of three kingdoms. One of these is Seshnela, but the other two may be from any of Arolanit, Ralios/Safelster, and Loskalm/Frontem. That is to say, it's an entirely valid reading to have Phargentes the Younger arrive as a dashing hero relieving Loskalm from the conquering Great Talar before, eyes glittering scarlet, he proceeds to TakenEgi things up with demands for lavish tribute. It all depends on just what Fronela looks like by this point, and all that's in orthodox Glorantha AFAIK is that Lord-Death-on-a-Horse has fulfilled his destiny as midboss of the northwestern Hero Wars and become irrelevant by this point. Plenty of room for lozenges to vary here. 

As far as uses for the Red Sword, it was famously stabbed into a shallow sea to pull land up from under the ocean before. It may be needed to do the same trick again. Or several times, there are multiple sunken lands around Glorantha that people are trying to raise in the Hero Wars, and presumably the Red Sword gets to go on a world tour. 

As far as Phargentes Moon Collector... there are eight arms and a mask for the mystic Moon. We seem to be missing at least one, possibly two, within the material one. (Granted, there are two red and two blue moons already, so we'd probably need a second white moon and a second black moon...)

[Sir_Godspeed]

Speaking of a shallow sea, and pardon the tangent, but do we know if Castle Blue will ever reappear? I seem to recall reading something about it being gone forever, but that's a bit of a bummer if true, Charmain is an intriguing figure. 

Not sure if they (and the larger Oroninae-complex of blue people) have anything to do with the Blue Moon though, as opposed to just water in a more generic sense.

[scott-martin]

7 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Speaking of a shallow sea, and pardon the tangent, but do we know if Castle Blue will ever reappear? I seem to recall reading something about it being gone forever, but that's a bit of a bummer if true, Charmain is an intriguing figure. 

Not a tangent at all. I was just looking at the implied secret history of the West Reaches again. In a future that even briefly contains a Free Carmania, a lot of that history is going to rise to the surface like a strange woman lying in a pond distributing swords. Carmanian sorcery. Lunarized Carmanian sorcery. Spolitism. Entekosiad.

Syranthir's achievement.

12 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Not sure if they (and the larger Oroninae-complex of blue people) have anything to do with the Blue Moon though, as opposed to just water in a more generic sense.

Blue is a complicated color in the fandom . . .  much of the chatter here points toward the western expressions (zzabur vadel) but the empire's historical relationship with water people is strangely fraught. A Hero War is our last chance to settle the questions.