How to cure venom?

[Tyrian Telbenj]

Im wondering wich is the way to cure venom.

Natural Healing work.

The normal healing magic doesent work. deos heal body Work?

[Godlearner]

30 minutes ago, Tyrian Telbenj said:

Im wondering wich is the way to cure venom.

Natural Healing work.

The normal healing magic doesent work. deos heal body Work?

According to the rules,  an antidote given to a poisoned but not-yet-dead adventurer within ten minutes cancels the damage done by the poison up to the level of the antidote.

Heal Body should work.

[Bill the barbarian]

Think venom might fit in here? Page 38 the Bed Book of Magic (Page 325 RQ G core book)or would one need a Cure Venom?

ETA

 

Found an answer...

Systemic Poison

Systemic poisons are often found in animal stings (scorpions, spiders, manticores). They are absorbed in the body and their effects are not localized, but are spread throughout the body to varying degrees.

The six types of systemic poison are:

Scorpion Venom: The type of poison injected by manticores, scorpion men, and scorpions. Usually slow-acting.

Poison Gas: The poison breathed by dream dragons, walktapi, and serpent guardians. Usually fast-acting.

Wyvern Venom: Injected by a wyvern’s sting or a snake’s bite. Usually fast-acting.

Spider Venom: From the bites of spiders, whether large or small. Usually slow-acting.

Herbal Poison: Made from poisonous plants. Usually fast-acting.

Mineral Poison: Made from non-organic materials. Slow- to fast-acting.

 

Antidotes

Almost all poisons have antidotes. All antidotes have a POT rating, just as poisons.

RQG core book page 159

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Think venom might fit in here? Page 38 the Bed Book of Magic (Page 325 RQ G core book)or would one need a Cure Venom?

No need for a separate Cure Venom - venom is just poison by another name.  So, Cure Poison is a good, fast solution.  As that spell notes, Restore Health is useful to regain lost characteristics.

Poison antidotes are also good choices to reduce damage.

Then there is also the Treat Poison skill which must be applied before damage is taken.

Note that if Vigor is cast after poisoning and before the resistance roll (or if you're a Humakti with the resistance to poison gift), then that will help prevent the poison from severely affecting you in the first place.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Think venom might fit in here? Page 38 the Bed Book of Magic (Page 325 RQ G core book)or would one need a Cure Venom?

ETA

 

Found an answer...

Systemic Poison

Systemic poisons are often found in animal stings (scorpions, spiders, manticores). They are absorbed in the body and their effects are not localized, but are spread throughout the body to varying degrees.

The six types of systemic poison are:

Scorpion Venom: The type of poison injected by manticores, scorpion men, and scorpions. Usually slow-acting.

Poison Gas: The poison breathed by dream dragons, walktapi, and serpent guardians. Usually fast-acting.

Wyvern Venom: Injected by a wyvern’s sting or a snake’s bite. Usually fast-acting.

Spider Venom: From the bites of spiders, whether large or small. Usually slow-acting.

Herbal Poison: Made from poisonous plants. Usually fast-acting.

Mineral Poison: Made from non-organic materials. Slow- to fast-acting.

 

Antidotes

Almost all poisons have antidotes. All antidotes have a POT rating, just as poisons.

RQG core book page 159

 

But Cure Poison is only available to CA ... It's not even offered to associated cults... So, nice if you can get to them in time.

 

4 hours ago, Tyrian Telbenj said:

Im wondering wich is the way to cure venom.

Sorcery 🙂

[Dragon]

Venom is poison that is generally injected by fangs or stings. The 'generally' means there are rare instances of other means, e.g. a spitting cobra.

So a venomous creature can inject poison.

In contrast 'poisonous' usually refers to one that has passive poison. You have to eat it or touch it to be poisoned. e.g. poison dart frogs, real world salamanders, puffer fish, monarch butterflies, poison oak, polar bear liver. Poison also includes non-organic toxins.

Cure Poison cures them all, because venom is a subset of poison.

Maybe Xiola Umbar will have Cure Poison when we finally get a RQ:G write-up. I have no prediction. But she ought to have something more than Healing Trance and Heal Wound for actual Rune Magic healing.

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Sorcery 🙂

if shamanism can't cure poison I'mma spit healing disease and infections/poison is like one of the main reason it exists in reality (the other is harming your enemies with witchery)

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

if shamanism can't cure poison I'mma spit healing disease and infections/poison is like one of the main reason it exists in reality (the other is harming your enemies with witchery)

The easiest way of a shaman curing poison is to treat it as a spirit (much as disease is a spirit) possessing the victim and so treat it as Exorcism (page 358). Once the POT of the poison spirit is reduced to zero through spirit combat the poison is gone.

As with the specific Shamanic Ability of Cure Disease, Cure Poison also exists (just change the word disease to poison).

As for the main reasons Healing, Divination and Ancestral intermediaries, I would say are the main ones. Harming your enemies is a sideline, not is specific to most shamanic cultures, as the main three take up most of your time. The Amazon seems to be the major exception to this.

Edited April 25, 2021 by David Scott

[soltakss]

Chalana Arroy has a skill of Treat Poison, which works on venom.

I would allow First Aid to be used to purge some of the venom, 1D3 on a normal success, 2D3 on a special and 1D3+3 on a Critical.

There are many spells that affect Venom, any spell that affects Poison also affects Venom. The RQG rulebook,. Big Red Book of Magic and book of Doom all have spells that work against Venom and Poison. Heal Body definitely works.

David's note about Cure Poison is an interesting one. Basically, there are more Shamanic Abilities than are described in the RQG Rulebook.

Healing Spirits might be used to purge Poison from the system.

11 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Found an answer...

Systemic Poison

Systemic poisons are often found in animal stings (scorpions, spiders, manticores). They are absorbed in the body and their effects are not localized, but are spread throughout the body to varying degrees.

In the Book of Doom, I list all the named poisons in the RQG Rulebook and Bestiary in a simple chart.

[Tyrian Telbenj]

thx for the answer :)...

[Oracle]

On 4/24/2021 at 11:44 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

...

Page 38 the Bed Book of Magic ...

Argh, albeit just a typo probably, I really need to see now the publication of this new magic book by chaosium ... containing all the magic provided by Uleria?

[Glyph]

Healing Trance - speeds up natural healing and available to a few cults

[Akhôrahil]

On 4/25/2021 at 8:10 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

if shamanism can't cure poison I'mma spit healing disease and infections/poison is like one of the main reason it exists in reality (the other is harming your enemies with witchery)

Go and find a spirit that knows the Rune spell?

[Joerg]

On 4/25/2021 at 8:10 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

if shamanism can't cure poison I'mma spit healing disease and infections/poison is like one of the main reason it exists in reality (the other is harming your enemies with witchery)

Diseases are easy - bring a Healing spirit, and set it against the disease. In case of doubt, bring more than one.

Poisonings aren't caused by spirits (unless you are talking about bad moonshine), but by substances that are ingested, inhaled, injected or absorbed through the skin. Other than casting Vigor to help the victim of the poisoning to fight the bad substance, there isn't much the shaman can do with magic short of rune magic. Unless there are tenacity passion spirits a shaman can send to possess a victim of a poisoning, or poison-eating spirit leeches, or something like that (for @Crel to add to a future Monster of the Month).

The shaman can use herbalism or alchemy to produce antidotes or at least purging agents (teas, aromatic smoke).

Shamans and sorcerers can be Chalana Arroy cultists with access to such rune spells.

Shamans of Swems might have access to leech spirits, or might be able to imbue leeches with antidote abilities.

 

Is it possible for a shaman to make a spirit pact with (an aspect of) CA or Swems without joining the cult as an initiate?

[Akhôrahil]

23 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Is it possible for a shaman to make a spirit pact with (an aspect of) CA or Swems without joining the cult as an initiate?

Spirit cult of some CA-adjacent spirit?

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Poisonings aren't caused by spirits (unless you are talking about bad moonshine), but by substances that are ingested, inhaled, injected or absorbed through the skin.

In animism, the belief is the everything has a spirit, shamanism is the practice of techniques to deal with these spirits. Poison in the eyes of a shaman has a spirit and can be dealt with as such. In tradition earth shamanism, there is little if any difference between the word disease and poison.

This why shaman should be able to deal with poisons, although not all might do so. Shaman that specialise in healing definitely should be able to do it and will likely have a supporting spirit attached to their fetch. Some may even practice transmutation, taking in the poison, having their fetch transmute it to an antidote and then return it to the victim.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

In animism, the belief is the everything has a spirit, shamanism is the practice of techniques to deal with these spirits. Poison in the eyes of a shaman has a spirit and can be dealt with as such. In tradition earth shamanism, there is little if any difference between the word disease and poison.

Taking that onward means that asphyxiation, hunger, thirst, exhaustion, wounds, blood loss, amputations or other mutilations may be spirits, too, spirits overlaying the intact spirit of the victim. Heck, aging is a spirit that could and would be banished (and likewise youth). And of course Death. Maybe even Chaos annihilation?

 

In other words: I can see how something like this would work on a body which has crossed over into the Spirit World, or at least gets sufficiently un-anchored in the Middle World for such spirit abstractions to work. The healing of Conan in the first of the Schwarzenegger movie probably did move the injured body a good way across the line, and bringing the hero back alive from the healing place was another struggle.

 

RuneQuest rules state that a Heal 6 (or higher, but what entity would know such a spell) will re-attach a severed limb. But then, the potency of a wound (the loss of hit points) is treated differently from the potency of a venom or a disease.

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

This why shaman should be able to deal with poisons, although not all might do so. Shaman that specialise in healing definitely should be able to do it and will likely have a supporting spirit attached to their fetch. Some may even practice transmutation, taking in the poison, having their fetch transmute it to an antidote and then return it to the victim.

There should be ways for shamans initiated into certain secrets that should allow to deal with venoms, poisons, etc.

The Kalevala has the Song of Iron, a piece of lore both containing the method for making iron (objects) deadly, and for undoing the damage done by iron (objects - usually weapons).

 

There was one type of healing in the later books of the original Thieves World anthology where a healer had a herd of domestic beasts (goats, in his case) which would take on the disease, poisoning or other symptoms of the patient. A less selfless version of Xemela's Healing, really, taking the damage and then re-distributing it.

[Crel]

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

Unless there are tenacity passion spirits a shaman can send to possess a victim of a poisoning, or poison-eating spirit leeches, or something like that (for @Crel to add to a future Monster of the Month).

Off the top of my head, suggest a minor spirit with the Covert Possession ability. When it possesses someone who's poisoned or diseased, they gain the effect of the Vigor spirit magic spell until healthy. Has no power on a healthy person. Sees that they're doing alright, waves its hands, and wanders off. But maybe instinctively initiates spirit combat against entities which are poisoned/diseased?

That could lead to sites which attract these spirits being known as healing places, or healing places naturally attracting these sorts of spirits, etc. Hrm. Food for thought.

Another option to Cure Poison as a new shamanic ability could be using Spell Extension to maintain a Vigor spell to help the person become healthy. +8 CON is a hefty boost when it comes to CON×5 rolls or resistance table rolls.

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Taking that onward means that asphyxiation, hunger, thirst, exhaustion, wounds, blood loss, amputations or other mutilations may be spirits, too, spirits overlaying the intact spirit of the victim. Heck, aging is a spirit that could and would be banished (and likewise youth). And of course Death. Maybe even Chaos annihilation?

However, it's every thing that has a spirit not the absence of something. Some that you list have a mythological origins too, not just spirits

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

In other words: I can see how something like this would work on a body which has crossed over into the Spirit World, or at least gets sufficiently un-anchored in the Middle World for such spirit abstractions to work.

When they reach an abstraction, they are not something that would have a spirit. Poison is a thing, so has a spirit. 

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

However, it's every thing that has a spirit not the absence of something. Some that you list have a mythological origins too, not just spirits

While Gloranthan mythology knows absences - the Void (although even that is full of potential) - most concepts that would be an absence in our scientific thinking are pretty "material" or at least spiritual things in Glorantha, like Darkness, Cold, Shadow, Hunger, Thirst, Hurt, Death, Separation.

Lunars may agree with describing Moonglow as a manifest, under the right circumstances even tangible absence of Darkness. Absence becomes a thing. A thing of Chaos, maybe, in the current expression of Lunar power, but an Illuminate's reaction to that would be a "so what?".

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

When they reach an abstraction, they are not something that would have a spirit. Poison is a thing, so has a spirit. 

Memories are a thing. Ideas are, too, or spells. Even sorcery spells are temporary things.

[David Scott]

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Memories are a thing. Ideas are, too, or spells. Even sorcery spells are temporary things.

To clarify things in animism - objects, plants, animals, tangible items. 

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

To clarify things in animism - objects, plants, animals, tangible items. 

Paths? Dreams? Visions? Passions? Sensations?

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

Paths? Dreams? Visions? Passions? Sensations?

If you talk to real world animists about this, the answer is pretty clear.

Is a dream a spirit - no, but spirits can visit people in dreams. dreams touch the spirit world and maybe a window / portal / entry point into it.

Is a vision a spirit - no, but spirits can visit people in visions. Visions touch the spirit world and maybe a window / portal / entry point into it.

Is a sensation a spirit - no, but spirits can cause sensations.

Not sure what you mean by Paths, but a path across a field could have a spirit that is separate from the field spiri or crop spirit (if present) or be a different part of the field spirit, without the crop. It could be where the field spirit lives when the field is full of crops.

Is a passion a spirit - generally no, but some spirits can possess people and cause them to act in a certain way. In RQG these are passion spirits. A real world shaman would classify it as a disease - a disease is spirit in the wrong place, in this case in a body. Using that, real world shaman would call disease, poison, extreme passion, malady (latin - sick-condition) collectively diseases (dis-ease), and deal with them in a similar cultural fashion.

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If you talk to real world animists about this, the answer is pretty clear.

I am trying to figure out Glorantha, though, where Illusion is temporary reality with as much thingness as permanent reality while the temporary thing exists. Stuff that fades into and out of Time.

 

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Is a dream a spirit - no, but spirits can visit people in dreams. dreams touch the spirit world and maybe a window / portal / entry point into it.

Is a vision a spirit - no, but spirits can visit people in visions. Visions touch the spirit world and maybe a window / portal / entry point into it.

Is a sensation a spirit - no, but spirits can cause sensations.

A ray of light, a cloud of shadow, a clap of thunder, a push of force? In Glorantha, I would think these have thingness.

 

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Not sure what you mean by Paths, but a path across a field could have a spirit that is separate from the field spiri or crop spirit (if present) or be a different part of the field spirit, without the crop. It could be where the field spirit lives when the field is full of crops.

A route regularly traveled - whether the Sunpath, a road, a herd's trail, Waha's Trails into Genert's Wastes, the trench left by the Block in the Devil's Marsh, or Ronance's ley lines between Oases.

 

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Is a passion a spirit - generally no, but some spirits can possess people and cause them to act in a certain way. In RQG these are passion spirits. A real world shaman would classify it as a disease - a disease is spirit in the wrong place, in this case in a body. Using that, real world shaman would call disease, poison, extreme passion, malady (latin - sick-condition) collectively diseases (dis-ease), and deal with them in a similar cultural fashion.

But then, there appears to be a practice of integrating spiritual things (or actual spirits) into one's self. Aren't passions something like this, at least potentially? Terrible events bring a long "pools of" awe, terror etc, and some of that latches on to at least some of the witnesses.

[Baron Wulfraed]

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

Taking that onward means that asphyxiation, hunger, thirst, exhaustion, wounds, blood loss, amputations or other mutilations may be spirits, too, spirits overlaying the intact spirit of the victim. Heck, aging is a spirit that could and would be banished (and likewise youth). And of course Death. Maybe even Chaos annihilation?

Regarding Death...

Locate a copy, and watch The Asphyx (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Asphyx)