Realism and Praxian Mounts

[Ali the Helering]

55 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Here is some rhino porn so you can answer that question for yourself. 😉

 

No Ali, no, bad boy!  No jokes about it.... evil evil evil.....

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

And being ruminants, their lips are surprisingly dexterous and flexible, much like a horse's.

Rhinos aren't ruminants, but rather closer related to tapirs and equines as perissodactyla. Thus they only have one stomach, as opposed to the ruminants' four. Whales are or at least used to be ruminants...

Praxian rhinos appear to be closet to the Indian variant than the two African ones. Indian rhinos appear to be opportunistic grazers (like African white rhinos) rather than browsers (like African black rhinos or tapirs), from what I could find.

The African White Rhinos (also grazers rather than browsers) were said to be the "most social of all rhinos" - probably tolerating other rhinos in 10 m distance, or something like that. Praxian one-horned rhinos apparently are more social than that in allowing their riders to form rather closed charges with maybe a meter between the charging steeds.

 

We already have two browser species among the Praxian quadrupeds with the high llamas and the morokanth. I don't see the point to have the rhinos push into that already quite overcrowded ecological niche if they can be opportunistic grazers. Still preferring greens to yellowed stalks, but able to take in the main growth of the chaparral.

Do the Beast Riders practice fire farming to get at these fresh greens? Other than the impalas (ironically the tribe with the fire association), few Praxian quadrupeds thrive on dried out grass. Fire farming would open the earth for new, lusher growth, at least while there is enough water.

 

[Ali the Helering]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

We already have two browser species among the Praxian quadrupeds with the high llamas and the morokanth. I don't see the point to have the rhinos push into that already quite overcrowded ecological niche if they can be opportunistic grazers. Still preferring greens to yellowed stalks, but able to take in the main growth of the chaparral.

Do the Beast Riders practice fire farming to get at these fresh greens? Other than the impalas (ironically the tribe with the fire association), few Praxian quadrupeds thrive on dried out grass. Fire farming would open the earth for new, lusher growth, at least while there is enough water.

 

Is this the rationalist approach to Hidden Greens?  👨‍🎓

[Joerg]

20 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Is this the rationalist approach to Hidden Greens?  👨‍🎓

It might be a reason to worship Oakfed for fertility, although fire farming really is the province of Gustbran rather than Oakfed.

The Hidden Greens are (or at least used to be) something else, pieces of the Compromise not as readily accessible to the Surface World dwellers as the rest of the world, possibly hiding in folds of Arachne Solara's Web.

New lands may appear or become accessible at times - the Thaw of the Syndics' Ban might be such a case if the change in the Fronelan maps from the God Learner maps (and the Dawn and Second Age maps in Trollpak) to the modern maps was caused by such an event rather than just using a sub-optimal base topography for the earlier maps.

The Karandoli clan might have moved into such a hidden valley. Their disappearance is fairly weird. (The disappearance of their rivals, the Jenstali, appears to be a case of assassinations until the clan dissolved. With the perps hiding outside of accessible Sartar, not even the in-laws were able to hinder them.)

[Ali the Helering]

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It might be a reason to worship Oakfed for fertility, although fire farming really is the province of Gustbran rather than Oakfed.

The Hidden Greens are (or at least used to be) something else, pieces of the Compromise not as readily accessible to the Surface World dwellers as the rest of the world, possibly hiding in folds of Arachne Solara's Web.

Yup, I was simply meaning that from a materialist approach it would make sense, which the Compromise wouldn't.  Arachne Solara's web?  Don't be daft, it's the strands of the Shadow Squares circling inside the Ringworld in the Great Ocean of which floats the Map of Glorantha in the middle of which is a meteorite impact which will eventually empty the Ocean as it is sucked into space.... I could go on.  And on and on and on.....  

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Yup, I was simply meaning that from a materialist approach it would make sense, which the Compromise wouldn't.  Arachne Solara's web?  Don't be daft, it's the strands of the Shadow Squares circling inside the Ringworld in the Great Ocean of which floats the Map of Glorantha in the middle of which is a meteorite impact which will eventually empty the Ocean as it is sucked into space.... I could go on.  And on and on and on.....  

Sorry, Ringworld Glorantha would be a Sunstop variety. Ringworld doesn't know sunrises and sunsets. Neither would the firmament work...

The Gloranthan firmament is viewed like from a planet's pole, while the Gloranthan planets and the sun are moving as viewed from an equatorial position on an (approximately spherical) planet. The observable sun only works as a planetary object.

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Here is some rhino porn so you can answer that question for yourself. 😉

Pity the Rhino Rider who has to help direct him, probably using both hands.

[soltakss]

Duplicate Post

Edited May 14, 2021 by soltakss

[svensson]

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

My headcanon is that they love pats and scritches and are very gentle around Rhino Rider children (if somewhat dangerously clumsy/nearsighted).

Take a look at the video in the top post. It's pretty adorable in that sense.

[svensson]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Rhinos aren't ruminants, but rather closer related to tapirs and equines as perissodactyla. Thus they only have one stomach, as opposed to the ruminants' four. Whales are or at least used to be ruminants...

Praxian rhinos appear to be closet to the Indian variant than the two African ones. Indian rhinos appear to be opportunistic grazers (like African white rhinos) rather than browsers (like African black rhinos or tapirs), from what I could find.

The African White Rhinos (also grazers rather than browsers) were said to be the "most social of all rhinos" - probably tolerating other rhinos in 10 m distance, or something like that. Praxian one-horned rhinos apparently are more social than that in allowing their riders to form rather closed charges with maybe a meter between the charging steeds.

 

We already have two browser species among the Praxian quadrupeds with the high llamas and the morokanth. I don't see the point to have the rhinos push into that already quite overcrowded ecological niche if they can be opportunistic grazers. Still preferring greens to yellowed stalks, but able to take in the main growth of the chaparral.

Do the Beast Riders practice fire farming to get at these fresh greens? Other than the impalas (ironically the tribe with the fire association), few Praxian quadrupeds thrive on dried out grass. Fire farming would open the earth for new, lusher growth, at least while there is enough water.

 

I forget the reference but I recall Greg saying that most Praxian Beast Rider animals' preferred grazing was on different plants in the same grazing area. Bison preferred one layer of the grazing, sables another. So while they would need to keep the herds separate for coup-counting purposes, two tribes could graze one immediately one the other. Certain sacred places [the Paps and Hidden Greens mostly] were blessed by Eiritha's mother, Ernalda, with thicker growth in the appropriate seasons to support the presence of the tribes during Holy Days and Sacred Time.

It's not hard to accept this, as getting hyper realistic about it eff's up the fantasy environment you're trying to create and game in.

The important part in all this is consistency from the referee. Explain [or write up] the Gloranthan ecology for that particular beast, let the players know, and be consistent. Give the players some input, be flexible, and be consistent with rulings and there should be no problems with mixing Earth Prime facts with Gloranthan fantasy.

Edited May 14, 2021 by svensson

[Bren]

12 hours ago, svensson said:

In comparison to their flanks, where the hide is thickest, absolutely. And being ruminants, their lips are surprisingly dexterous and flexible, much like a horse's.

Yes the lips were quite soft.

10 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

My headcanon is that they love pats and scritches and are very gentle around Rhino Rider children (if somewhat dangerously clumsy/nearsighted).

The one I met certainly did. And carrots. He really liked carrots.

[Ali the Helering]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sorry, Ringworld Glorantha would be a Sunstop variety. Ringworld doesn't know sunrises and sunsets. Neither would the firmament work...

The Gloranthan firmament is viewed like from a planet's pole, while the Gloranthan planets and the sun are moving as viewed from an equatorial position on an (approximately spherical) planet. The observable sun only works as a planetary object.

Ah, as I say, I could go on.  A number of us worked out the ramifications and requirements of Ringworld Glorantha in 1980-ish, and the physics still holds together, as far as I know.  (Others in the group being the physicists, not me!)  One simply needs another new level of bizarre rationalisations every five years or so.  Almost like being Gregged....

However, I wasn't being serious, so don't be concerned about the maniac in the corner.  🤪

[AndrewTBP]

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

We already have two browser species among the Praxian quadrupeds with the high llamas and the morokanth.

I believe the morokanth diet is the same as the other Praxian tribes but heavily slanted to the vegetarian option. I quote:
The morokanth are primarily vegetarians but do eat herd-men as part of their religious practice. — RuneQuest Glorantha Bestiary, p.51

[svensson]

1 hour ago, AndrewTBP said:

I believe the morokanth diet is the same as the other Praxian tribes but heavily slanted to the vegetarian option. I quote:
The morokanth are primarily vegetarians but do eat herd-men as part of their religious practice. — RuneQuest Glorantha Bestiary, p.51

Yep. That's how I read it too. I think that the Morokanth probably eat more meat than just holy day practices, but I really could see a Heortling or Esrolian completely lose their shit watching a herd-man get rendered down in its usable parts... leather hides, tendons for glue and bindings, fats boiled into waterproofing, etc.

And for the record, herd-men are completely herbivorous.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

Yep. That's how I read it too. I think that the Morokanth probably eat more meat than just holy day practices, but I really could see a Heortling or Esrolian completely lose their shit watching a herd-man get rendered down in its usable parts... leather hides, tendons for glue and bindings, fats boiled into waterproofing, etc.

It is worth when they observe this practiced by Praxians in human shape, or on the Pavis meat market. Making a body disappear in Pavis is easy, as long as you don't sell any tattooed skin.

Herdman vellum might be a sought after writing material - some of Zzabur's most magical books use similar material. Maybe inscribed by a tattooist while the herdman still was alive? Hard to turn a tattooed skin into a palimpsest, or to forge that.

(But then Zzabur's most potent grimoires are likely written on Vadeli hide treated in a similar way as Waertagi dragonship hide - alive, for certain values of alive, possibly with some of the life force of the fromer wearer still imbued in the material.)

 

3 hours ago, svensson said:

And for the record, herd-men are completely herbivorous.

This has been hotly debated a number of times earlier, and the various implications have been discussed, too. Just search for "Morokanth AND diet" in the forum search for a number of quite relevant posts.

 

We all would have seen birds crawling over herd beasts - especially rhinos - picking at pests crawling in their furs or skin folds. I wonder whether there are such birds in Prax and the Wastes - it has a very limited ecology, almost as if someone built one from scratch by importing the minimum required amount of species into a space habitat.

I wonder whether herd men are naturally grooming not just one another, but also pretty much any other type of herd beast, as well as their Morokanth masters, for tasty little snacks. As such, other Praxians might actually want to have a few of these captive beasts among their herds for better herd health.

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, AndrewTBP said:

I believe the morokanth diet is the same as the other Praxian tribes but heavily slanted to the vegetarian option. I quote:
The morokanth are primarily vegetarians but do eat herd-men as part of their religious practice. — RuneQuest Glorantha Bestiary, p.51

Herbivores, like cows, do eat small amounts of meat when they can get it - cows nab mice and shrews on the reg, which is startling to the onlooker to see. I reckon it is like that, as too much would freak out their system. One herd-man divided amongst a tribe as a ritual sacrifice is a small portion for such a large individual - morokanth are large.

4 hours ago, svensson said:

I really could see a Heortling or Esrolian completely lose their shit watching a herd-man get rendered down in its usable parts... leather hides, tendons for glue and bindings, fats boiled into waterproofing, etc.

Yeah, this would be deeply unsettling. However, showing them the herd-men might help: they are non-sentient, and their heads don't have big brains. They aren't identical to humans in this way: they have tiny heads behind their face, no brain. Reconstructions of early hominids are google-able, just replace the ape-like faces (if you want to, I believe they are supposed to have human faces).

One of the things that makes herd-men broo visible aside from their hooves is their tiny heads. You can't fool a Praxian; they'll look at a clever broo trying to pass as a human and immediately see a herd man. A Heortling/Esrolian might easily be fooled, though... and beware the Mallian witch in a head-dress

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Ah, as I say, I could go on.  A number of us worked out the ramifications and requirements of Ringworld Glorantha in 1980-ish, and the physics still holds together, as far as I know.  (Others in the group being the physicists, not me!)  One simply needs another new level of bizarre rationalisations every five years or so.  Almost like being Gregged....

However, I wasn't being serious, so don't be concerned about the maniac in the corner.  🤪

I would be interested in seeing this explored in a separate thread... whether Ringworld Map Glorantha, or Roundworld Glorantha, or even just space habitat Glorantha using Clarketech.

[Darius West]

On 5/14/2021 at 11:08 PM, Joerg said:

Do the Beast Riders practice fire farming to get at these fresh greens? Other than the impalas (ironically the tribe with the fire association), few Praxian quadrupeds thrive on dried out grass. Fire farming would open the earth for new, lusher growth, at least while there is enough water.

As you have suggested, the best match for a Praxian rhino is likely the white rhino which is an obligate grazer that favors short grasses.  While they prefer short grasses, and fresh growth, they can likely get the calories they need from dry grasses by eating more of them, they just don't seem to favor it as much, is the inference.

I would expect that starting grass fires is a pretty standard raiding practice in Prax, as a grass fire bearing down on an oasis with a prevailing wind can serve as well as a mounted charge for breaking an enemy.  As to deliberate use of fire to stimulate grass regrowth in Prax, you'd think that Oakfed or Mahome would mention it, but they don't.  Perhaps suggest a new Prax-specific spell to MOB for inclusion in RQ: Gods of Glorantha to add to the Lowfires (p204-207)? 

[Ali the Helering]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

I would be interested in seeing this explored in a separate thread... whether Ringworld Map Glorantha, or Roundworld Glorantha, or even just space habitat Glorantha using Clarketech.

I tried a campaign using Clarketech, with Blue Moon uzuz as Protectors, but the whole immersion thing completely broke down.  More recently I ran a game for Tindalos placing Glorantha on a ringworld in the Uplift universe, with him as a Chim scout.  Neither of us have been crying out for a return fixture...

I have now reduced it to a simmering thought experiment and am focusing on bringing a book to the compendium dealing with the happy holiday home of Can Shu!  

[Bill the barbarian]

On 5/14/2021 at 10:50 AM, soltakss said:

Duplicate Post

You think you are having problems, I keep making dupe topics, sigh...

[g33k]

On 5/13/2021 at 9:55 AM, svensson said:

PROTIP: Rhinos are not 'tamed'. They are 'negotiated with'. There are a lot of dumb things that happen in Glorantha [as with any world, real or mythical], but very few things are dumber than Rhino Rider thinking that spurs are gonna be of any help....

IMG, the Survival Compact means that all species of Herd Beasts are generally more-cooperative with their human partners than they are with other humans.

Of course, the rhino's still run toward being stolid-yet-violent, stubborn, and not much noticing stuff like a mere riding-crop across the flanks...  much like their riders, come to think of it!

[g33k]

21 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

... herd-men ... are non-sentient, and their heads don't have big brains. They aren't identical to humans in this way: they have tiny heads behind their face, no brain ...

YGWV !

In my own Glorantha, herdmen are visually indistinguishable from humans.  Remember, there's Praxian rune-spell "Alter Creature" that renders Herd Beasts (including herdmen) sentient... or sentient Praxians into Herd-Beasts.

Praxians can generally tell the difference, though a really skilled Praxian might fool others, for a while (or fool non-Praxians indefinitely).

IMG, faking being a herdman is a common (but commonly seen as immature) joke among Praxian tribes...

[Rob Darvall]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

not much noticing stuff like a mere riding-crop across the flanks...  much like their riders, come to think of it!

So why, exactly, are you striking rhino riders across the flanks with a riding crop?

[David Scott]

On 5/15/2021 at 5:01 AM, svensson said:

And for the record, herd-men are completely herbivorous.

Herd men are omnivorous. Talking with Greg when sorting out material for Prax lead to some interesting discoveries for the morokanth to work as the other tribes in Prax, otherwise their role under the Way of Waha wouldn't work.

Firstly, why would the morokanth raid and keep other's herd beasts like the other tribes? The simple answer is that they feed their raided meat to the herd men. Herd men don't do well on a solely vegetarian diet, they hair isn't as lush, they loose weight, etc. That's why you see few if any herd men in the other tribes, they are never willing to feed them meat and so they are first in the pot. The only real occasion you find them amongst the the other tribes is as dowery gift of a mixed herd to the appropriate mother / grandmother of a clan. Even then they are not meat feed and so usually the last captured. Herd men are much lower value on the dowery scale. Foreigners are usually unable to identify herd men in a non-morokanth tribe, they look like scruffy humans.

The herd men also gather food for the morokanth. 

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

So why, exactly, are you striking rhino riders across the flanks with a riding crop?

Because they have been very, very naughty