Realism and Praxian Mounts

[g33k]

8 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

So why, exactly, are you striking rhino riders across the flanks with a riding crop?

Generally, for the same reason you'd do it to the rhino's:  trying to get them to go in the %$@#! right direction...

[g33k]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Because they have been very, very naughty

That too, of course.

[Akhôrahil]

On 5/13/2021 at 8:21 PM, Ali the Helering said:

Never say I don't check for sources!  There are numerous occasions when bisons have been broken to the saddle, apparently there was even a TV series at some point in the past.  Being bred to be a riding beast isn't the only way to become one.

Charles XI of Sweden is said to have attempted moose cavalry. Apparently they are peaceful, gun-shy, and susceptible to diseases when kept in flocks. Moose-pulled sledges are a thing, though.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Ali the Helering]

10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Charles XI of Sweden is said to have attempted moose cavalry. Apparently they are peaceful, gun-shy, and susceptible to diseases when kept in flocks. Moose-pulled sledges are a thing, though.

IIRC the old Wargame Research Group army lists for the Renaissance gave Sweden a small optional contingent of Sami scouts riding reindeer.

[Bill the barbarian]

16 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

IIRC the old Wargame Research Group army lists for the Renaissance gave Sweden a small optional contingent of Sami scouts riding reindeer.

Apologies svensson,  quick thread drift. Ali, did you play WRG rule systems or just read the books? Let’s take this off to a PM as well rather than hijack this thread.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Lordabdul]

22 hours ago, David Scott said:

Herd men are omnivorous. Talking with Greg when sorting out material for Prax lead to some interesting discoveries for the morokanth to work as the other tribes in Prax, otherwise their role under the Way of Waha wouldn't work.

Firstly, why would the morokanth raid and keep other's herd beasts like the other tribes?

I'm confused... I thought the Survival Covenant was that: the mounts live off the plains, and the riders live off the mounts. So I thought herd-men were herbivores for the same reason the other mounts are herbivores, because that's how the Covenant works?

Also, I thought the Morokanth would raid and steal other herd beasts for the same reason every other tribe does it: (1) it shows you're stronger, and (2) it gives you extra meat and pelts and horns and bones and such without having to take from your own herd.

So am I misunderstanding something in both these things?

Edited May 17, 2021 by lordabdul

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I'm confused... I thought the Survival Covenant was that: the mounts live off the plains, and the riders live off the mounts. So I thought herd-men were herbivores for the same reason the other mounts are herbivores, because that's how the Covenant works?

it is true than in french version scenario I have (like casus belli or tatoo), the herd men were always described as "horse" in human shape (eating herb, with a male stalion, etc...).

 

but I always saw the covenant as :

"the beasts are eaten by the people and the people raise and protect the beasts."

that's why morokanth can be seen as cheaters. They should be the beast

 

In some perspective we can understand that when humans were challenged by herbivor, humans won easely, but when they were challenged by ominivorous being, like them... they lost.

Victory without risk brings triumph without glory or defeat with shame.

 

[Ali the Helering]

If you are wanting truly realistic herd beasts, it is worth remembering that there are very few large animals that are pure herbivore.  Cattle (& I would assume bison to be similar) eat birds and mice, as do (non-Praxian) horses.

Deer eat carrion rabbits, squirrels and humans (yes, really), and live birds and fish.

Most herbivores will occasionally eat meat, particularly if their normal foodstuff is unavailable.

Interestingly enough, Zebras will attack and kill deer but leave the carcasses for others to eat.

Life is never simple, and Your Herbivores May Vary.

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I'm confused... I thought the Survival Covenant was that: the mounts live off the plains, and the riders live off the mounts. So I thought herd-men were herbivores for the same reason the other mounts are herbivores, because that's how the Covenant works?

Also, I thought the Morokanth would raid and steal other herd beasts for the same reason every other tribe does it: (1) it shows you're stronger, and (2) it gives you extra meat and pelts and horns and bones and such without having to take from your own herd.

So am I misunderstanding something in both these things?

The Survival Covenant is not a hard and fast document. The general overview is that there wasn't enough food in the Wastelands for all the men and beasts to survive, so Waha went to his mother and made a deal. There would be winners and losers, all done on the pull of a straw. Losers get to live as animals, winners rule over them. As long as they don't all try to live off the land it's fine. The covenant was negotiated with the individual tribes not as a whole, and so everything said about it is from the view of the individual tribes. Hence all the human tribes say the morokanth cheated. Every tribe has a different story. It is possible to say that all the tribes treat the covenant the say way, but that makes for a very monolithic setup. Likewise we know from Joraz Kyrem's conversation at the Paps (with Eiritha) that others can join (Pavis GTA page 41): 

Quote

 

“Under what meager conditions would one allow a horse to live in one’s land?” he asked a priestess of the Paps one day.

“In bondage,” she spoke, “Broken from kin.” She spoke with the words of the Goddess.

“Need they be unhealthy?” he asked. “You aid herd men and giant lizards.”

"Their health I grant within their confines"

 

Joraz effectively becomes the Zebra founder and reestablishes Zebras under the covenant.

The big secret is that regardless of who is grazing the wastes, they can also feed on the spirit plants that have no physical presence anymore.

 

[g33k]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

 

The Survival Covenant is not a hard and fast document. ... The covenant was negotiated with the individual tribes not as a whole, and so everything said about it is from the view of the individual tribes ...

I had, in fact, understood that it was more of a single Covenant; what's the oldest written/attested reference to the "different Survival Covenant per Tribe" idea?

This idea of per-Tribe variability is a Greg'ing, I think... (associated with the vision of a more-vegetarian, "primarily religious WRT carnivory" Morokanthi).   I gotta ask in particular:  how do any of the other Tribes's Covenants vary?  Do any of them vary on a scale akin to Morokanth eating so much less herd-meat than the other Tribes?

If none of the other Tribal Covenants have any (substantive) variance...  Well, that speaks eloquently of the claim that each Tribe negotiated individual Covenants.   I suspect this idea is made of pure retconnium.

YGWV.

(OTOH, I have a very-variant Bolo-Lizard Tribe, and it would in fact make VERY good sense to link that variance into their particular negotiation of the Survival Covenant; so I might just take some time to do this for several other Tribes, and include the vision of more-herbivorous-Morokanth into my Glorantha...  Or I might not, I kind of *LIKE* having the squickiness that is old-school Morokanth&Herdmen ... ! )
 

Edited May 17, 2021 by g33k

[g33k]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Survival Covenant is not a hard and fast document. The general overview is that there wasn't enough food in the Wastelands for all the men and beasts to survive, so Waha went to his mother and made a deal. There would be winners and losers, all done on the pull of a straw. Losers get to live as animals, winners rule over them ...

FWIW...

IMG, it's distinctly ambiguous which were the "winners" and which were the "losers."

Most 4-legs won the right to eat directly from Eiritha's gifts, from the Goddess herself.  The won the right to be bigger, stronger, faster.  They won the right to have weak little 2-legs tend to their needs, serving them from birth to death...

😁

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Every tribe has a different story. It is possible to say that all the tribes treat the covenant the say way, but that makes for a very monolithic setup.

I see, thanks!  My understanding of the Covenant was pretty limited and based on the Guide which only has a short write-up that states that the animals "live off the plains". As often, things are a bit more complicated, but I guess the general statement applies to the main player-facing tribes.

I really like the Morokanth as a way to introduce interesting questions about humanity, modern diets, the relationship to animals, etc... but there's a lot of details that don't quite make sense to me about their actual write-ups and magic. My Glorantha varies a bit on that front, but I'm looking forward to your possible future Prax Homeland Set and see your interpretation!

[svensson]

Appropos of nothing important really, I haven't checked this thread in a couple days and I have to admit that I'm kinda... 'flattered' I guess... that I sparked a discussion that's run this long.

[PhilHibbs]

@svensson I assume from your avatar that you identify as a Sable Rider?

[svensson]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

@svensson I assume from your avatar that you identify as a Sable Rider?

BITE YOUR TONGUE, LUNAR DOG! 😁

Sables are a wonderful source for meat, wool, horn, coup counting, and free wives to proper Rhino People.

[As to my avatar, it's my old SCA heraldic arms:

"Gules, an Otter couchant to sinister guardant within a bordure embattled Argent" - AnTir, 1992 (give or take)]

[PhilHibbs]

In case anyone missed the joke I was referencing, which I thought was bang on topic for a Praxian mounts realism thread:

https://www.chaosium.com/blogrunequest-update-recently-discovered-early-writings-of-greg-stafford-prompt-revision-for-famous-praxian-tribe/

Edited May 27, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[svensson]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

In case anyone missed the joke I was referencing, which I thought was bang on topic for a Praxian mounts realism thread:

https://www.chaosium.com/blogrunequest-update-recently-discovered-early-writings-of-greg-stafford-prompt-revision-for-famous-praxian-tribe/

Dammit, I've seen that before and completely forgotten about it.

You can soar with Eagles, but weasels like us don't get sucked into jet intakes 😁🤣

[Brootse]

On 5/27/2021 at 11:09 AM, PhilHibbs said:

In case anyone missed the joke I was referencing, which I thought was bang on topic for a Praxian mounts realism thread:

https://www.chaosium.com/blogrunequest-update-recently-discovered-early-writings-of-greg-stafford-prompt-revision-for-famous-praxian-tribe/

In one Finnish translation, maybe a line in the Glorantha box, the sables were translated into that kind of sables.

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 minute ago, Brootse said:

In one Finnish translation, maybe a line in the Glorantha box, the sables were translated into that kind of sables.

This is beginning to turn into the (documented/in-game) origins of the logo for Traveller's Scout Message service (researcher finds mention of Earth's [Solomani] "pony express", but has no idea of what a "pony" is -- so picked some animal with similar sounding name -- and we get someone riding an 8-leg lizard).

 

[Brootse]

Re: realism and Gloranthan mounts, I've found it simplest to think of them like the Gloranthan metals, ie. they only share a common name with Earth's equivalent. They are as fantastical beings as dragons. Eg. an impala warrior's mass is about 70% of impala's mass, while Earth's cavalry horses carried only about 25% of their mass, so impala cavalry is as realistic as a flying dragon. But since this is a fantasy game, you can just say that a wizard deity did it.

[Baron Wulfraed]

30 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Re: realism and Gloranthan mounts, I've found it simplest to think of them like the Gloranthan metals, ie. they only share a common name with Earth's equivalent. They are as fantastical beings as dragons. Eg. an impala warrior's mass is about 70% of impala's mass, while Earth's cavalry horses carried only about 25% of their mass, so impala cavalry is as realistic as a flying dragon. But since this is a fantasy game, you can just say that a wizard deity did it.

The Bestiary does state (for impala)

Quote

Small antelopes ridden by a tribe of pygmies

It is the High Llamas that are obscene -- they are larger (3D6 + 30 -> max 48) than horses (4D6 + 12 -> max 36)... They are even larger than Bison!

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

The Bestiary does state (for impala)

It is the High Llamas that are obscene -- they are larger (3D6 + 30 -> max 48) than horses (4D6 + 12 -> max 36)... They are even larger than Bison!

As was aepycamelus which appears to have weighed 2200 pounds, as opposed to a typical bison bull weighing 2000 pounds. The high llama is also much taller than a bison. 

[Brootse]

53 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

The Bestiary does state (for impala)

It is the High Llamas that are obscene -- they are larger (3D6 + 30 -> max 48) than horses (4D6 + 12 -> max 36)... They are even larger than Bison!

The RQG pygmies are just slightly smaller than other humans (-2 to SIZ), and I calculated it in. RQ3 pygmies were somewhat smaller, but I have no idea where their stats were. And Gloranthan bisons aren't particularly large, and the biggest horse breed is the size of Icelandic horses, ie. quite small.

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 minutes ago, Brootse said:

and the biggest horse breed is the size of Icelandic horses, ie. quite small.

Am I wrong when I imagine sartarite cavalry with this kind of mount ?

[Brootse]

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Am I wrong when I imagine sartarite cavalry with this kind of mount ?

Theirs are even smaller, that hulking brute i posted was the size of a massive western warhorse.