Why don't publish Arkat's Saga as part of the Stafford Library?

[craigm]

2 hours ago, Hijabg said:

I am disheartened to read about all those artificial obstacles that are being raised to prevent us from reading that document.

Honestly, for $350 + S/H you can remove one of those obstacles and begin reading the document. That is your option. And then you can box it up and ship it to whomever you wish and allow them to read it for free, and they can do likewise. Think of it as liberating the document for those who wish to read it for free, and removing the artificial obstacles preventing folks from reading it.

That's one option.

Perhaps a more constructive option would be to pick up the PDFs of the Stafford Library (assuming you haven't done so) and make it so that transcribing the document, warts and all, is something worth pursuing.

Money is a lubricant. Use it to make things happen. I've presented two options to help speed along the process.

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, jenh said:

He *did* share it, in various physical forms; that he didn't share it in other forms, or more widely, was presumably his choice.

And everyone who has copies of any of his unpublished materials is aware of these usual additions:

 

[Thoror]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

And everyone who has copies of any of his unpublished materials is aware of these usual additions:

 

I get this, but at the same time I find it kind of unfair. Greg isn't around anymore to ask him a copy, no matter how trustworthy you are or how thoughtful your feedback could be. Last year RPG giant (less of a giant than Greg. but still giant) John Tynes sent me something (I'm not going to say what, which will underscore my point), and I haven't shared it with anyone. And I never would, not without his express permission, because he trusted in me, a complete stranger to him, and that kind of trust is absolutely sacred. But John Tynes is alive, and there is no Greg Stafford to trust in me, and there will never be. It's complicated.

That said, I don't share nor approve Hijabg's comment. These are the people behind the aforementioned Gloranthan Classics, the Guide and the Sourcebook and the upcoming Cults of Glorantha we are talking about; of course they want to share Glorantha with us. But Chaosium is a business which they have to manage as best as they can, no matter how frustrating can it be to people like us without any stake in said business.

[Hijabg]

On 5/26/2021 at 9:37 PM, craigm said:

Perhaps a more constructive option would be to pick up the PDFs of the Stafford Library (assuming you haven't done so)

I actually have bought them in print, thank you very much.

I have bought pretty much everything related to Glorantha and Runequest that has been sold by Chaosium and its publishing partners over the years. As well as pretty much everything edited in french. And a whole bunch of Cthulhu stuff, as well as everything for Pendragon, Stormbringer, and Nephilim,  And more obscure things as well that were not Gloranthan but were close like Chaosium's reedition of Carse and Tulan of the Isles from Judges Guild.

I am willing to spend a lot of money when it's worth it, like I did on Glorantha: The Gods War (from Petersen Games). If I were a collector, the Arkat's Saga might be worth 350$ as a collectible item, but I am not a collector. My pleasure is in reading, not in possessing.

Do you have any other constructive options to propose ? Can we find 10 people to make a group buy of some sort so we can actually read this for a decent price ? 

14 hours ago, Thoror said:

of course they want to share Glorantha with us.

They could share this document with us very easily if they wanted, but they decided to keep it for them, and for the few rich people who can afford to pay an outrageous price for it.

I really wish someone with the power to do it would understand that there is more worth in sharing Arkat's Saga with us here than there is in keeping it away from us. 

[Ali the Helering]

16 hours ago, Thoror said:

 Greg isn't around anymore to ask him a copy,

Which actually makes it all the more important that we respect his wishes.

 

1 hour ago, Hijabg said:

Do you have any other constructive options to propose ? Can we find 10 people to make a group buy of some sort so we can actually read this for a decent price ? 

They could share this document with us very easily if they wanted, but they decided to keep it for them, and for the few rich people who can afford to pay an outrageous price for it.

I really wish someone with the power to do it would understand that there is more worth in sharing Arkat's Saga with us here than there is in keeping it away from us. 

Maybe 'someone with the power to do it' would be inclined to be more amenable if you were less offensive?

I have indicated that I would like to read it too, but your attitude certainly offends me.

[Thoror]

6 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Which actually makes it all the more important that we respect his wishes.

I don't see it that way. That's not a "last will" kind of wish, and even if it was, should Max Brod have burnt Kafka's unpublished work like the latter asked him to?

Like I said, it's complicated.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Thoror said:

Like I said, it's complicated.

All of these unpublished works were © Greg Stafford. When an author dies, the rights pass to their estate and heirs. For example, who own the rights to Middle Earth, Dune, etc. It's not the publishers.

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Hijabg said:

I really wish someone with the power to do it would understand that there is more worth in sharing Arkat's Saga with us here than there is in keeping it away from us. 

Or not

• How many people will enjoy to buy it and read it, knowing it is a  xxx work [choose the word unfinished, not validated, not the level expected by chaosium, etc... (no offense) ]
• How many people will enjoy to buy it and read it, not knowing it is a xxx work ?
• and How many people will enjoy to buy it but become frustrated because it is a xxx work ?
• What is the cost to publish it as is ? that is not just one "drag and drop"
• What is the cost to publish it as the level Chaosium wants to publish ?

 

so from a business perspective, there are opportunities and concerns. I will not advise chaosium anything about this.

and there is not only business perspective, there is artistic perspective: I don't know, chaosium may want to publish only complete pieces ?

and there are not only business and artistic perspectives, there is emotional perspective. Because there are people, there is a community behind the company. I don't know what was/is their relationship, but probably not a "standard" one.

 

 

For sure I would like to read a good, complete saga of Arkat. This saga is not published.

That's an opportunity for creators. There is always another way.

 

Yes, I am frustrated to not have some important material (for me) knowing it exists (at least the text 😛) but it is not yet published

Yes, I am not 100%¨convinced by chaosium choices (but I like the majority of course, if not I were not here), as I understand chaosium people would probably not be convinced by some of my ideas.

That's fine, that's all, that's life

 

 

 

 

[Ali the Helering]

2 hours ago, Thoror said:

I don't see it that way. That's not a "last will" kind of wish, and even if it was, should Max Brod have burnt Kafka's unpublished work like the latter asked him to?

Yes.  It was a straightforward instruction, and Brod was deceptive and arrogant.

[Thoror]

33 minutes ago, David Scott said:

All of these unpublished works were © Greg Stafford. When an author dies, the rights pass to their estate and heirs. For example, who own the rights to Middle Earth, Dune, etc. It's not the publishers.

Chaosium has not said anything about not owning the rights. So, even if they don't technically own them, that doesn't seem to be a problem for them.

That being said, I accept the explanation they've given. It's their business to run, not mine.

[Thoror]

23 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Yes.  It was a straightforward instruction, and Brod was deceptive and arrogant.

But those texts changed the history of literature for the better. Others could argue about the benefits of many outweighing the wish of one.

Although I respect your opinion, you're clearly a person of principles.

[Ali the Helering]

The history of literature is what it is.  There was no predetermined history Brod chose to change.  He rather chose to aggrandise himself by connection with a greater genius.  Kafka burned more than 90% of his works in his lifetime, and I think it arrogant in the extreme for anyone to have assumed they could second-guess him.  There is a difference between principles and simple plain decency. 

[Joerg]

I would love to read an author's adaptations of Greg's Malkioni cycle (Snodal, Jonat, Hrestol, Arkat, Avalor etc,), but I have not seen someone like Lyon Sprague de Campor Lin Carter emerge.

Greg's prose has a special tone which will be hard to capture by another author.  There is a ton of difference between the versions of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin in Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillion version, too, with the Silmarillion being a lot weaker in tone than the rawer but longer versions.

Such an author would not have those longer versions to fall back to, however.

 

Maybe something like a Gloranthan Thieves World anthology might be able to produce authors sufficiently aware of the setting that one might be able to go back to those very fragmentary roots of Glorantha. There would still be quite a bit of "This Author's Glorantha Does Vary" to be dealt with.

[M Helsdon]

I have seen one version of Arkat's Saga, and read in detail one segment that was published in a fanzine some years ago, starting "I hate trolls." I recognised another segment which is republished in the original TrollPak when Arkat becomes a troll. From skimming through that version, those are the main parts featuring Arkat. Most featured his friend, or dealt with other matters. Instead, other than those two pieces, you'll find more about Arkat scattered here:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/the-kings-of-seshnela-part-one/

But the most coherent source is The Guide to Glorantha.

For some time I believed there was a Talor's Saga, and (happy to be wrong!) now believe it is barely a page, reproduced in one of the four Kickstarter reward books for the RuneQuest Kickstarter. It is basically Arkat and Talor riding up the Rockwoods to see the extent of Dorastor over the mountains, and is obviously no longer consistent with the chronology. Talor laughs when he sees the scale of the campaign before them...

I believe there was other material in the Guide Kickstarter Origins of Glorantha volumes, but all I've seen of those is the Contents list.

To turn a version of Arkat's Saga into a coherent book would be, I believe, a very great deal of work, because much of what you'd expect isn't there (perhaps it is in a document I haven't seen). My take, derived from these sources, and a few other things, appears in the JC non-canonical Men of the West, and I recount Arkat's story only as far as Slontos and then his retirement to Ralios.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/325525/Men-of-the-West?src=hottest_filtered

But for canon, the Guide...

Edited May 29, 2021 by M Helsdon

[Ubblak]

I once figured as a once huge fan of Glorantha that Greg would never publish any book entitled THE TRUTH ON GLORANTHA: ENCYCLOPAEDIA GLORANTHANA. I used to be upset at that because of the rpg campaign I ran on these days back. So I invented what I could not guess or scrap from the material I owned.

I think that in fact it was exactly what Greg expected from me as a gamemaster. I dreamed my own Glorantha.

Think of the Grail. Greg was quite found of arthurian mythos, and so he knew of its true nature... 

Arkat's story, the secret of the god learners, Arachne Solara's true name and so on are not meant to be known. They are meant to be dreamed of.

The truth if such a thing ever existed hides in the unknown dreams of our regretted Greg.

[David Scott]

Thanks @Ubblak for your very insightful reminder.

15 hours ago, Ubblak said:

Arkat's story, the secret of the god learners, Arachne Solara's true name and so on are not meant to be known. They are meant to be dreamed of.

At cons there used to be three (seven?) questions that Greg wouldn't answer. I remember what is the secret of the God Learners. Does anyone remember any others?

(To be clear I'm not asking for the answers, just the questions).

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by David Scott

[SMW]

44 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Thanks @Ubblak for your very insightful reminder.

At cons there used to be three (seven?) questions that Greg wouldn't answer. I remember what is the secret of the God Learners. Does anyone remember any others?

(To be clear I'm not asking for the answers, just the questions).

 

Seven questions as I remember it

1. What is the Secret of the God Learners?
2. What are the other 5 questions?