Help with modified Sartar Family History

[Martin Dick]

I'm putting together a campaign to start in 1608 and developing a modified family history to start in 1565. I've looked in the Guide, the Sourcebook, King of Sartar and the Family History on the Jonstown Compendium and put together the following:

1565 – Death of Jarolar fighting Tarsh King Phargentes

1565 – Coronation of Jarosar – Built Royal Road from Jonstown to Dangerford

1565-1574 - Orldaging War

1569 - Death of Jarosar by Lunar spirits/Poisoning

1569 - Coronation of Tarkalor – Extends trade route to Duck Point, Builds Royal Road to Whitewall

1570 – Tarkalor hires Dragonewts

15?? – Tarkalor opens trade route to Kethaela

1575 - Tarkalor marries the Feathered Horse Queen

1575 - Orldaging War ended by Tarkalor

1579 - Tarkalor recognized that the Yelmalio cult was legal possessor of the lands of the Amber Fields and Forthanland

1582 - Battle of Grizzly Peak – Tarkalor dies –

1582 - Battle of Alda Chur

1582 – Terasarin crowned – Built Royal Road from Dangerford to Alda Chur

1583 Alone founded by Terasarin

1591 – Lunar invasion

1597 Lunar Assassins kill members of the Sartarite royal family

1600 – Terasarin killed by a dinosaur

 

As you can see between 1583 and 1601 , it seems pretty uneventful (except for a lot of Royals dying mysteriously). Does anyone know of other events that have happened and/or when Tarkalor opened the trade route to Kethaela?

 

thanks in advance

Martin

[David Scott]

8 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

As you can see between 1583 and 1601

Just in case you missed anything: 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/timeline-dragonpass/1561-1602-conflict-with-the-lunar-empire/

Are you trying to do this for all the homelands or just Sartar?

 

[Martin Dick]

Thanks for that, I did browse the Well of Daliath a bit but missed that one! There's a couple of events I can grab 🙂

I'm only doing it for Sartar

cheers

Martin

[David Scott]

34 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

Thanks for that, I did browse the Well of Daliath a bit but missed that one! There's a couple of events I can grab 🙂

The document is currently under update, so may have more additions soon!

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

The document is currently under update, so may have more additions soon!

very good news !

Will you fix the few questions (Kalyr's deaths for example) or give explanation about it   ? (after all some dates could be based on"gloranthan narrator vision" more than "irl designer dates")

[Nick Brooke]

Have you seen this, yet: Early Family History? It has a random event table for each Homeland between 1583-90 (which leverages the Regional Events tables from the Orange Box and the Guide), and a new detailed event for 1591 (Lunar invasion of Sartar defeated, boo hiss). It's Pay What You Want (recommended: $3.95) on the Jonstown Compendium, and has sold more than 250 copies.

[Baron Wulfraed]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Just in case you missed anything: 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/timeline-dragonpass/1561-1602-conflict-with-the-lunar-empire/

Woah!

Has any thought been given to making a simple /downloadable/ PDF (no fancy backgrounds, images -- just a copyright page and tables) out of all those pages/tables

[Kloster]

16 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Woah!

Has any thought been given to making a simple /downloadable/ PDF (no fancy backgrounds, images -- just a copyright page and tables) out of all those pages/tables

this has been requested.

[Scotty]

41 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Will you fix the few questions (Kalyr's deaths for example) or give explanation about it   ? (after all some dates could be based on"gloranthan narrator vision" more than "irl designer dates")

It uses a variety of published sources, so it will quote what those say, so no. It's likely to be at the battle of Queens in Fire Season 1626 (Glorantha Sourcebook), Jeff clears it up in Round 4 & 6 here: 

12 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Has any thought been given to making a simple /downloadable/ PDF (no fancy backgrounds, images -- just a copyright page and tables) out of all those pages/tables

No. This is an online only source that collates the available published material. It's been there since 1999, we're just replacing the sources that aren't available, updating those that are available (eg. KoS 2nd ed), and adding newer ones. It's been broken into separate pages to make reading easier.

My thanks to @Oracle for his excellent work on this.

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Will you fix the few questions (Kalyr's deaths for example) or give explanation about it   ? (after all some dates could be based on"gloranthan narrator vision" more than "irl designer dates")

Let me help you here. King of Sartar is an unreliable book, containing many inconsistent accounts of events. One of those is a timeline which, in the first edition, had Queen Kallyr killed by Harrek in 1630 (Events of my Life by Minaryth Purple, on pages 211-213 of the first edition).

Those timeline entries are gone from the second edition (pages 181-182).

I understand the reason for this change is that having Kallyr stick around for five years after the Dragonrise made the early Hero Wars too confusing: it's easier to understand the rise of Argrath and the early battles of the Hero Wars if you first sweep the field clear of detritus from the Lunar Occupation period.

This retcon (look it up) upset people who had become invested in Kallyr Starbrow, or attached to the "vague and nebulous Argrath" theories encouraged by King of Sartar and the HeroQuestWorldWars game line, and understandably so. Their Gloranthas Will Vary. Luckily, they've been playing long enough that they know this, and are smart enough to work around it. (Probably)

For the rest of us, it's simplest to assume that the canonical events are as described in RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha and the Glorantha Sourcebook, and to know that Your Glorantha May Vary, and Should Vary, and Will Vary, if you prefer a different take. That is in fact guaranteed by something called "the RuneQuest Effect," which was among the first things I heard from Greg Stafford in person back in 1985.

Because I am aware that, as the End of the Third Age approaches, Glorantha will inevitably fracture into multiple overlapping quantum alternate timelines, in which different deeds are achieved by different heroes at different dates, I take this sort of annoyance less seriously than people who have not been illuminated by this simple Cosmic Truth. It's because of Chaos encroaching. It's inevitable. Embrace it. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

For the rest of us, it's simplest to assume that the canonical events are as described in RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha

yes that is my point. I'm looking for a "one" RQG timeline (before and after 1625)

 

I have no issue with the oldest versions, that's for me the curvature of the space time, absolutly understandable.

 

I appreciate a lot the effort of consistency (and renewal)  I feel in RQG, thats why I asked if a "all events" timeline (will) exists in this version

for sure, this timeline is not a priority but as I am more than I will not embrace your last sentence 😛

 

 

 

[Nick Brooke]

45 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I appreciate a lot the effort of consistency (and renewal)  I feel in RQG, thats why I asked if a "all events" timeline (will) exists in this version

Update older versions as a stop-gap (most notably, by ignoring those later, deprecated Events Of My Life entries), or wait for the Dragon Pass Campaign (that's the Boy King equivalent that Jeff has been talking about recently. Or do what I do and bumble along happily in a Glorantha of your own, occasionally intersecting with the "official" timeline more by luck than by judgement.

Quote

for sure, this timeline is not a priority but as I am more  than  I will not embrace your last sentence 😛

Oh, I'm not saying you should "embrace Chaos." I'm saying you should happily accept that the Creator of Glorantha knew that your campaign isn't ever going to be the same as anybody else's campaign, and he had a plausible explanation for why this is the case. Once you take that on board, the world is your oyster. Nobody in your version of Glorantha has ever met, heard about or been killed by the heroes of my RuneQuest campaign, and that's frankly implausible... but for the RuneQuest Effect.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Nick Brooke

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

1565 – Death of Jarolar fighting Tarsh King Phargentes

1565 – Coronation of Jarosar – Built Royal Road from Jonstown to Dangerford

1565-1574 - Orldaging War

1569 - Death of Jarosar by Lunar spirits/Poisoning

1569 - Coronation of Tarkalor – Extends trade route to Duck Point, Builds Royal Road to Whitewall

1570 – Tarkalor hires Dragonewts

15?? – Tarkalor opens trade route to Kethaela

1575 - Tarkalor marries the Feathered Horse Queen

1575 - Orldaging War ended by Tarkalor

1579 - Tarkalor recognized that the Yelmalio cult was legal possessor of the lands of the Amber Fields and Forthanland

Pretty much from 1560-1579, there is ongoing war between Tarkalor and his allies and the Kitori of the Troll Woods.  Tarkalor's victory over this time builds the roads and defeats the "bandits" that previously limited trade to Sartar.  Effectively by 1579, Nochet to Karse to Boldhome becomes the effective trade route not only to Sartar but to the Lunar Empire beyond. 

Tarkalor's wars include the use of the Sun Dome Templars and their settlement in Vanntar in southern Sartar, the creation of the Night Jumpers to help conquer the Kitori, and some amount of alliance with the Volsaxi clans.

[Nick Brooke]

I think Tarkalor’s wars against the Kitori were “won” by 1564; after that, you’re looking at an occupation, police action, counter-insurgency kinda thing. (I spent a lot of time cross-checking this sort of detail when I was writing the Sun County Backgrounds article for Sandheart 1: lots of the Templars who’d fought in those wars emigrated to Sun County in Prax afterwards)

[Thoror]

5 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Because I am aware that, as the End of the Third Age approaches, Glorantha will inevitably fracture into multiple overlapping quantum alternate timelines, in which different deeds are achieved by different heroes at different dates, I take this sort of annoyance less seriously than people who have not been illuminated by this simple Cosmic Truth. It's because of Chaos encroaching. It's inevitable. Embrace it. 

I would use internal Gloranthan logic to explain it: it's because, with the Hero Wars, the Greater Darkness comes back, and the only possible way to end such an event on a happy(-ish) note is with I Fought We Won. Of course your heroes won't meet anyone else's heroes in the process. Maybe (if both sets of heroes survive) they will meet after the end, and know that somehow they have fought together all along.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Thoror

[Martin Dick]

Yes, I have the Early Family History but I bought it awhile ago, I should check if there is a later version

cheers

Martin

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

Yes, I have the Early Family History but I bought it awhile ago, I should check if there is a later version

cheers

Martin

I think there were some minor updates at one point, but nothing too substantive. 

Another source to look at if you are doing anything in the Jonstown area or northern Sartar is the Coming Storm.  A lot of good background there on the Cinsina, Culbrea, Maboder, and Dinacoli tribes. 

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

I think Tarkalor’s wars against the Kitori were “won” by 1564; after that, you’re looking at an occupation, police action, counter-insurgency kinda thing. (I spent a lot of time cross-checking this sort of detail when I was writing the Sun County Backgrounds article for Sandheart 1: lots of the Templars who’d fought in those wars emigrated to Sun County in Prax afterwards)

There are dates that go as late as 1579 for their defeat.  But I think 1564 is a good point to mark the triumph of the Sun Dome and the opening of the road-building work.  The trails/trade between the Shadow Plateau and the Troll Woods are disrupted, and trade starts to open up between Karse and Boldhome.  Still before the Opening, and Nochet's rapid expansion, but goods from along the Manirian road can make their way more readily north.

I think the Kitori are still counter-attacking (e.g. wiping out one of the Curtali clans) for about 15 years, and the Night Jumpers still to come to bring that to an end.

[Martin Dick]

I have it but I can't read it as I'm playing it 😊, but I thought it was set later than the 1500s?

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

Yes, I have the Early Family History but I bought it awhile ago, I should check if there is a later version

Later Family History?

[Joerg]

Well, these significant grandparents and parents often end up being late.

[Nick Brooke]

3 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

I have it but I can't read it as I'm playing it 😊, but I thought it was set later than the 1500s?

You mean Sandheart? The scenarios so far are timeless, the author’s own campaign was in classic RQ3 times (1615-20ish), and the first book has my Sun County Backgrounds article: 19 pages of Yelmalian recent history for use when creating characters who are aged 21 in 1615.

There’s a lot of overlap with what Monrogh and Tarkalor are getting up to because of all the personnel movements between Dragon Pass and Prax at the end of the Solitude of Testing, the Trollkiller’s Wars and the restoration of the Dragon Pass Sun Dome Temple. It also operationalises the Secret History and has a few new surprises of its own. If your GM lets you (and I can’t see why they wouldn’t), take a look for yourself: it’s at the back of the book, and meant for players.

[Martin Dick]

I do have all the Sandheart volumes, but I meant The Coming Storm. But that's a good tip and there was a later version with your family history in it, that wasn't there when I first got it, so happy now 🙂 Thanks

[Graeme P]

From a quick look, The Coming Storm history (page 5 sidebar) indicates that for general history information for Sartar you should look at Sartar - Kingdom of Heroes.  It's history info is generally more local in scope.

The history in S:KoH is set out in fairly broad strokes though. For the period you nominated, the table on page 272 has:

• 1590 Tarsh is finally pacified - so arguably the impact on Sartar involves refugees, defending and reinforcing the border and perhaps supporting the Wintertop exiles around Kero Fin.
• 1591 Lunar invasion defeated by an alliance of Satrar and the Holy Country. 
• 1602 Fall of Sartar
• 1605 Lunar invasion of the Holy Country. Building Wall battle.

S:KoH has lots of details about locations and clan structures though, so that might be helpful if you have it.

Going off-canon (at least I imagine it is no longer canon) the article 'Dragons Past 1' from Different Worlds #28 indicates that there is the annhilation of the Maboder under the fangs of the Telmori in 1606, followed by the reprisals of Jomes Wulf and the Lunars known as the Conquest of the Telmori in 1607.

After 1602 there would have been Lunar agents seeking out and eliminating anyone who was a blood relation of the Sartar royal family.

From memory,there was also the failed attempt by the Lunars to launch an invasion of Prax in 1608. The Lunars ended up having to give significant concessions to the priestesses of the Paps to be allowed to return alive.

This indicates that there would have been a significant amoount of military activity in Sartar, both to pacify it and to launch invasions in 1605 and 1608.

 

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Graeme P said:

Going off-canon (at least I imagine it is no longer canon) the article 'Dragons Past 1' from Different Worlds #28 indicates [...]

Reprinted in Wyrms Footnotes #15.